from what car
Renault Espace IV Fase II - 2.2 dCi FAP aut. (102 kW/137 bhp)
Date of manufacture: march 2006 - up to now
1785Kg
Now unless its not 2006 then that is not an old model
I have no idea where you got the figures you quote from and frankly if anyone new is reading this it can be very dangerous. The 2.2 would not tow my van at an acceptable 100% let alone the 85% figure I always aim for. So its not so daft afterall
Also note that the figures on what car for caravans is the kerbside weight and you need to add the respective loading in the second window to get the van figures up to the MTLM
we recently had a posting on this forum regarding the espace which i was looking at buying and somebody replied to tell me to check the towing limits very carefully as renault quote in the book towing limits with "driver only". The car i was buying was a new 2006 grande espace 2.2 dci auto which looking at the book appeared to be fine for my ace celebration 590 twin axle van, however i was concerned so i rang renault and got the following advice by mail, and i quote,
the weight your renault vehicle is able to tow can be found in your handbook on the pages headed "weight (in kg)". the important figures for braked trailers are the "kerbweight" (unladen weight) of the towing vehicle; the "maximum permissible towing weight braked"; and the "total train weight" (the combined weight of the towing vehicle and trailer).
the "driver only" towing weight means exactely what it says - this is the maximum weight the vehicle can tow when there are no passengers or luggage in it.
the "other cases" towing weight shows the maximum weight your vehicle can tow when it is already loaded up to the "maximum permissible all up weight" (including any roof rack).
both these sets of figures, when added together will come close to the "total train weight". in more common circumstances when for instance, the towing car is half laden, the "driver only" towing weight can be increased, provided that the maximum total train weight is not exceeded. in simple terms, within these weight limits, weight which is removed from the trailler can be added to the towing car.
Now with the above letter i went back to the renault dealership and discovered that the above car with my wife myself and my two teenage kids in it could have towed my caravan, but it would have had to be empty as i only had 20 kg spare, it would be wise for any one looking at this car to tow a large van to be very vigilant regarding the weights, my van is quite light at 1640 kgs for a twin axle my old coachman laser would have been very illegal. its such a shame that renault have been so miserly with the limits as the car is otherwise superb.
the weight your renault vehicle is able to tow can be found in your handbook on the pages headed "weight (in kg)". the important figures for braked trailers are the "kerbweight" (unladen weight) of the towing vehicle; the "maximum permissible towing weight braked"; and the "total train weight" (the combined weight of the towing vehicle and trailer).
the "driver only" towing weight means exactely what it says - this is the maximum weight the vehicle can tow when there are no passengers or luggage in it.
the "other cases" towing weight shows the maximum weight your vehicle can tow when it is already loaded up to the "maximum permissible all up weight" (including any roof rack).
both these sets of figures, when added together will come close to the "total train weight". in more common circumstances when for instance, the towing car is half laden, the "driver only" towing weight can be increased, provided that the maximum total train weight is not exceeded. in simple terms, within these weight limits, weight which is removed from the trailler can be added to the towing car.
Now with the above letter i went back to the renault dealership and discovered that the above car with my wife myself and my two teenage kids in it could have towed my caravan, but it would have had to be empty as i only had 20 kg spare, it would be wise for any one looking at this car to tow a large van to be very vigilant regarding the weights, my van is quite light at 1640 kgs for a twin axle my old coachman laser would have been very illegal. its such a shame that renault have been so miserly with the limits as the car is otherwise superb.
I'm not going to get involved any personal attacks on anyone but I think one should put facts right. Even if the Espace weighs what Steve says (between 1665kg and 1890kg) there is still no reason why it should not be able to tow 2000kg if that's the manufacturer's spec. Nobody said that an Espace weighs 2000kg.
OK, lets close this shell we
The 114% is based on the smallest Espace as my van is an Ace Supreme Sunstar which has been replated to allow for the mover and thus its MTLM is 1800kg. I tow it with a Disco as its one of the few cars that will allow about 85%
Images available at http://www.jensanet.hopto.org/caravan.htm
Please be careful when using whatcar as it is known to be a little inaccurate at times. this time, to a point that could cause someone to get into real danger.
No hard feelings?
no probs,the only thing I will say is your answer to the guy re everyone should drive an espace was the type that blair would use,i.e not all the facts and mislead figures,Not a standerd caravan with the smallest car.I supose I did the same re heavest car and a standerd caravan.
Re your replate is it the law to replate after a mover is fitted?
no its not, but if you contact the makers and there is enough leaway in the figures then they will do it
For a fee!
What this means to me is that I do not have to deduct the 30kg of the mover from my payload weight
Thanks
As for MOHAA, like is an understatement seeing as I pay for a public server and run a clan. I realy must get out more!
go to http://s10.invisionfree.com/FeaRClan/index.php?act=idx and post in the technical section. Someone will sort out your DMW for you. lots of pitfalls with that one
The Espace will tow 2000kgs as you say Lutz, but it will not have weight on it's side as the Discovery would, which I think was the point made by Steve initially. I think the argument was regarding safety: Discovery v Espace, and there is no doubt the Discovery would be a safer drive with 2tonnes on the back.
just found what i think are the figures the dealer gave me when i went back,
2006 grand espace dynamique 2.2dci auto, 1820 kg kerbweight, max tow weight 2000 kg, max train weight 3820 kg. in other words renault class the train weight as the kerbweight plus the max tow weight there is no other margin as there is with most other vehicles, ie; my alhambra has a train weight 400 kg higher than its kerbweight plus tow weight.
therefor the espace will onlt tow 2000 kgs if only the driver is in the vehicle with no luggage at all, as soon as you put any passengers or luggage in the vehicle you have to reduce the max tow by the same amount, so as you can see with my van weighing 1640 kg empty i had only 360 kg to play with for my passengers and luggage, it just did not equate for me and if you wanted to tow at 85 % i cant see any van being light enough. i have only put this on the thread as some may become confused by the rantings about the 2000 kg limit. i don't know many people who tow on there own whilst the family follows in another car.
2006 grand espace dynamique 2.2dci auto, 1820 kg kerbweight, max tow weight 2000 kg, max train weight 3820 kg. in other words renault class the train weight as the kerbweight plus the max tow weight there is no other margin as there is with most other vehicles, ie; my alhambra has a train weight 400 kg higher than its kerbweight plus tow weight.
therefor the espace will onlt tow 2000 kgs if only the driver is in the vehicle with no luggage at all, as soon as you put any passengers or luggage in the vehicle you have to reduce the max tow by the same amount, so as you can see with my van weighing 1640 kg empty i had only 360 kg to play with for my passengers and luggage, it just did not equate for me and if you wanted to tow at 85 % i cant see any van being light enough. i have only put this on the thread as some may become confused by the rantings about the 2000 kg limit. i don't know many people who tow on there own whilst the family follows in another car.
That's right, yes. For all their models, Renault does specify a gross train weight that is less than the sum of the GVW and the maximum towload. One can never load a Renault up fully and then still take advantage of its maximum permissible towload. Other manufacturers do have higher payload margins for their cars. Some don't even make any restriction on gross train weight other than what is imposed anyway by the specified max. GVW and max. towload.
That is not to say that a Renault is necessarily any less safe to tow with than any other car. There are a lot more technical factors that play a role than just weight - rear overhang, tyre equipment, suspension rates, height of centre of gravity, type of braking system control, polar moments of inertia of the towcar, to name just a few (leaving aside the obvious human factors that always apply).
On the whole, 4x4's perceived better towing capability is based on weight alone. However, many of the other issues go against them. They often have relatively soft suspensions with more spring travel, high aspect ratio tyres which are also softer and higher centres of gravity. It is not without reason that Mercedes, for example, first introduced a sophisticated electronic trailer stabilising system on the M-Class as standard. It helps to overcome some of the disadvantages that this type of car has although weightwise it would everything going for it.
It's all a much more complex issue. From a concept point of view, vans (MPV's) are better suited to towing than 4x4's, all other things being equal. The ideal towcar would probably be people carrier with lowered suspension and all-wheel-drive.
That is not to say that a Renault is necessarily any less safe to tow with than any other car. There are a lot more technical factors that play a role than just weight - rear overhang, tyre equipment, suspension rates, height of centre of gravity, type of braking system control, polar moments of inertia of the towcar, to name just a few (leaving aside the obvious human factors that always apply).
On the whole, 4x4's perceived better towing capability is based on weight alone. However, many of the other issues go against them. They often have relatively soft suspensions with more spring travel, high aspect ratio tyres which are also softer and higher centres of gravity. It is not without reason that Mercedes, for example, first introduced a sophisticated electronic trailer stabilising system on the M-Class as standard. It helps to overcome some of the disadvantages that this type of car has although weightwise it would everything going for it.
It's all a much more complex issue. From a concept point of view, vans (MPV's) are better suited to towing than 4x4's, all other things being equal. The ideal towcar would probably be people carrier with lowered suspension and all-wheel-drive.
I've owned 16 Renaults of all types from a Renault five (got one now) to the Espace. None of which rusted in ten years let alone three weeks.
They all were exceptionally reliable and rarely exceeded
They all were exceptionally reliable and rarely exceeded
Steve, I think it's time to get both feet on the ground. What has racing Espaces got to do with safety? And besides, what have racing Espaces got to do with any Espace that the average owner drives on the roads. Nothing except the general shape. Racing is a completely different kettle of fish.
Isn't it fair to say that there are few bad cars out their?
I remember getting into an Austin Westminster (The huge thing with a Rolls Royce engine) - I thought it would be great!
Lovely inside - very plush.
A was well until we came to the first corner. The damn thing had the directional stability of an oil tanker! - All it wanted to do was go in a straight line.
I could not wait to get out of the thing.
Whilst I am not surprised at Fifth Gear doing this test - after all they were the ones that took and old MOT failure Range Rover with knackered suspension bushes, springs and Shock Absorbers and rolled it.
Hardly a surprising result when you know the facts - but hey! - it made good TV.
The separate chassis design of Land Rovers goes back decades. And yes they do rust even though most of the bodywork is aluminium. The chassis is steel. The aluminium body has to be separated from the steel to prevent electrolytic corrosion. When the Discovery was introduced it outsold all other 4x4's in the UK. As a result build quality (never a Lode Lane strong point!) suffered and the rubber separator strips were not always used.
Why oh why oh why - did they never use a galvanised chassis?
Now for about a
I remember getting into an Austin Westminster (The huge thing with a Rolls Royce engine) - I thought it would be great!
Lovely inside - very plush.
A was well until we came to the first corner. The damn thing had the directional stability of an oil tanker! - All it wanted to do was go in a straight line.
I could not wait to get out of the thing.
Whilst I am not surprised at Fifth Gear doing this test - after all they were the ones that took and old MOT failure Range Rover with knackered suspension bushes, springs and Shock Absorbers and rolled it.
Hardly a surprising result when you know the facts - but hey! - it made good TV.
The separate chassis design of Land Rovers goes back decades. And yes they do rust even though most of the bodywork is aluminium. The chassis is steel. The aluminium body has to be separated from the steel to prevent electrolytic corrosion. When the Discovery was introduced it outsold all other 4x4's in the UK. As a result build quality (never a Lode Lane strong point!) suffered and the rubber separator strips were not always used.
Why oh why oh why - did they never use a galvanised chassis?
Now for about a
Regarding safety, however, the very concept of a separate chassis brings with it additional problems in achieving good crash performance simply because you have a relatively stiff foundation and a much weaker superstructure. This makes it very difficult to design for dedicated controlled energy absorbtion just where you need it. It is always easier to design a car for good structural crash performance with a unitary body shell.
The Sorrento only gets one star less on Ncaps web site than the renault, think i'll stick to my sorrento
Agreed 100% Lutz
But the opportunity cost of making cars ultrasafe for the rare event of a crash is that bits of them are so flimsy even a minor knock can cause
But the opportunity cost of making cars ultrasafe for the rare event of a crash is that bits of them are so flimsy even a minor knock can cause
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