Longer rather than wider

[mat1]

Drove from Lancashire to Somerset, using the M6 and M5, Friday afternoon.
Obviously lots of caravans about being bank holiday
I was surprised at the number of twin axle caravans.
My guess was 1 to every 6 single axle.

Are we Brits going for longer than wider vans ?

Mat

 

[Lutz]

My single axle is almost 26' which is longer than some twins so its not so much a question of single or twin.
Although 2.5m wide caravans are now permitted in the UK they aren't much fun to tow and I can understand the reluctance to go that wide.

 

[Surfer]

We have a twin and it has more room plus is far more stable to tow than a single axle. Also easier to reverse with than a single axle.

 

[Lutz]

We have a twin and it has more room plus is far more stable to tow than a single axle. Also easier to reverse with than a single axle.

I can't see how a twin axle has, by definition, more room than a single axle. Room is a function of size and not of the number of axles. Whether a twin is 'far' more stable is also debatable. Here, too, larger caravans tend to be more stable than smaller ones, regardless of whether they are single or twin. Reversing is also easier the longer the caravan, but not whether it is a single or twin axle.

 

[Mel]

I think the correlation between size and axle is that larger caravans tend to be built with two axles. In other words the larger (and hence more roomy) the van the higher the liklihood it has two axles. (This sounds very obvious and non technical; perhaps I am being thick.) Can't comment from experience on reversibility or stability as never towed a twin axle.
mel

 

[Lutz]

In general, yes, but there are single axle caravans which are larger than some twins so the number of axles is not necessarily a criterion.

 

[Surfer]

Twin helps spread the load better and normally has a higher payload.

 

[Lutz]

Twin helps spread the load better

To what effect?

............................ and normally has a higher payload.

Due to market demand, AlKo last year started production of a 2000kg single axle chassis, so that's not the rule.

 

[AlanW]

My van is 2.5m wide and ive found no difference towing it, more room inside though

 

[Surfer]

Twin helps spread the load better

To what effect?

............................ and normally has a higher payload.

Due to market demand, AlKo last year started production of a 2000kg single axle chassis, so that's not the rule.

Aren't you being a bit pedantic just because you always need to be one up on every oen else and not just me? "Alko started production of a 2000kg single axle LAST YEAR". Can you perhaps tell us which single axle caravans in the UK market have this chassis? Thanks.

 

[Lutz]

"Alko started production of a 2000kg single axle LAST YEAR". Can you perhaps tell us which single axle caravans in the UK market have this chassis? Thanks.

None as yet to my knowledge. Hobby wanted to gain a market lead by being the first to offer a 2000kg single axle. They therefore secured sole rights to this chassis during the first year of production, thus preventing AlKo from selling it to any other caravan manufacturer until the year was up.

 

[JonnyG]

Relax Surfer, you and I might be guilty at times of trying to be one up, and there are others too, but to imply Lutz is guilty of the same actions! Come on surely you know better...

 

[Delt1c]

Several years ago i had a blow out towing , as it was a t/a was able to comfortably to bring the outfit to a stop as there was another wheel to take the load. had it been a single not sure what the outcome would have been. yes you can purchase bands and electronic systems to assist , but in this instance I was thankfull I had a t/a instead of a single.

 

[Dustydog]

Lutz
I think sometimes you forget that the English market is very conservative compared to the rest of Europe and indeed Australia!

No wonder Al-ko didn't give the English manufacturers a chance with a big SA

I suspect the new Al-Ko 2000kgs chassis will eventually be used by Swift Bailey etc but for now we are shave no choice. TAs for more space or pay through the nose for a Dethleffs.
I've had both SAs & TAs and in truth have no difficulty with either other than the TA imo has a greater margin of safety in the event of a blow out of a tyre.

Personally I prefer flying to the Far East with 4 engines rather than two. Old fashioned and prejudiced ? Yes . But that's why I now prefer four wheels , TA . to an SA..
PS. Nothing wrong with the Boeing 777 but in a failure I'm stuck with one engine. On the 747 I'd be left with 3........

 

[Lutz]

AlKo didn't give anyone else other than Hobby a chance to use their 2000kg chassis, let alone UK manufacturers.
Big delivery vans such as the Merc Sprinters have similarly high axle loads and they get by with 4 tyres, just like the ones used on caravans, one at each corner and nobody considers them to have too low a safety margin.
Why sacrifice payload for the weight of a second axle?

 

[xtrailman]

I saw a hobby today returning from fishing.
It fulled the road, too wide in my opinion, and must be a killer to the fuel consumption.
Our motorways were never designed for the continental lorries that have rutted our roads.
Now we are being "treated" to caravans that are too wide?
Maybe they should carry wide load warnings!

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Ray

I cannot agree with your position on this subject, and I feel you may applying emotion rather than logic.

Quote
"It fulled the road, too wide in my opinion, and must be a killer to the fuel consumption." I assume you meant 'filled' not fulled

At 2.5m, its no wider than a lorry, so unless the road was designated not suitable for HGV then there should be no problem. as for fuel consumption, At low speeds the consumption is more related to weight, its only at higher speeds that wind resistance plays a bigger part, so Fuel consumption around small roads will probably no different to any other outfit of the same weight and length.

Quote
"Our motorways were never designed for the continental lorries that have rutted our roads."

It is perhaps true that many of our road were not specifically designed to cater for continental lorries. But realistically what is different between UK and continental lorries? The vehicles are in many cases exactly the same. OK the driver is on the wrong side which may have issues regarding blind spots, but otherwise the size and weights are essentially the same. If you are thinking of load per tyre, the continentals sometimes have more axles and tyres on goods trailers than UK which may actually diminish the load per unit area to less than some UK vehicles - less potential damage in some cases

As the vehicles are basically the same consequently the rutting we see would happen with or without continental vehicles on our roads. The time-scale for the rutting to appear may may be different, but probably not as much as you may imagine, as the loads carried by continental vehicles would have been transferred to UK vehicles at the docks, so the same loads would still need to travel across the same roads. Even if the lorries were smaller, there would be more of them so basically the same end result.

The "rutting" on our roads is more an inditement of our road construction and maintenance policies than the nationality of the drivers that may use them.

Quote
"Now we are being "treated" to caravans that are too wide?"

2.5m caravans are allowed on UK roads, it just the tow vehicle previously needed to be over 3500Kg. So the only thing that has now changed is there is the possibility we may see more 2.5m caravans behind cars. According to regulations they are not too wide.

Quote
"Maybe they should carry wide load warnings!"

Why should they carry a wide load warnings? Are they of a size as defined by the Road Traffic Acts to require a wide load indications? - No

Would such a marking make the driver of the outfit behave any differently? - Unlikely

Would it prevent them from using the roads that you travel on? - No except for roads with width restriction which is no different to now anyway.

Are you seriously saying that the additional 200mm (8 inches)width over the previous regulation makes them so much more of a problem, or are you as a driver following or approaching a 2.5m caravan incapable of negotiating it because of the additional 200mm? - If not, then how do you cope with farm tractors and trailers, buses and lorries?

Which caravan or car you buy is of course down to your personal choices. and I guess you will be crossing 2.5m caravans of your wish lists.

 

[Lutz]

I saw a hobby today returning from fishing.
It fulled the road, too wide in my opinion, and must be a killer to the fuel consumption.
Our motorways were never designed for the continental lorries that have rutted our roads.
Now we are being "treated" to caravans that are too wide?
Maybe they should carry wide load warnings!

One could equally argue that some UK lorries are a lot higher than Continental ones and therefore just as much killers to the fuel consumption, especially as there are more high sided vehicles on the roads than 2.5m wide caravans. (There is no height limit in the UK whereas in most Continental countries impose a 4m limit)

 

[ProfAlGoogle]

" If you are thinking of load per tyre, the continentals sometimes have more axles and tyres on goods trailers than UK which may actually diminish the load per unit area to less than some UK vehicles - less potential damage in some cases"

Not quite true John, here in the UK we run at 44tons on six axles, our foreign counterparts when visiting our shores run at 44tons on five axles, so they are actually running at a higher axle weights which in turn will increase the probability of rutting, but I do concur that the construction of our highways is the biggest problem of rutting.

 

[Lutz]

Actually, only about 50% of all European countries allow 44 tonners so there can't be that many foreign registered 44 tonners on UK roads. Besides, even on 5 axles, a 44 tonner would be within the 10 tonne axle load limit that applies in the UK. An 18 tonner on two axles can cause just as much damage to the roads.

 

[ProfAlGoogle]

Lutz, here in the UK we get a tax break on VED for running on six axles, or we used to and I stand correcting as I have been out of the transport industry for many a year, but still indirectly involved with my job, but whichever way you slice it 44tons spread over six axles as opposed to five is less weight per axle and that was the main reason here in the UK why we run that configuration to lessen the weight impact on our roads.

 

[Lutz]

I appreciate what you are saying, Cookieones, and obviously six axles instead of five reduces the load on each axle, but nevertheless a two axled 18 tonner is closer to the 10 tonne per axle limit than a 44 tonner, regardless of whether it has five or six axles.

 

[ProfAlGoogle]

I appreciate what you are saying, Cookieones, and obviously six axles instead of five reduces the load on each axle, but nevertheless a two axled 18 tonner is closer to the 10 tonne per axle limit than a 44 tonner, regardless of whether it has five or six axles.

Lutz, you need to read prof johns post that I was replying to, he incorrectly states " if you are thinking of load per tyre, the continentals sometimes have more axles and tyres on goods trailers (not 2 axle rigids @ 18 tons) than UK which may actually diminish the load per unit area to less than some UK vehicles"

The reverse is true it is the UK that run on more axles not our continental counterparts, so in theory we are causing less damage to our own road surfaces, and it is quite rare to see 2 axle rigid continental rigids on our roads, the most common being five axle artics running at 44tons.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Cookieones
I stand corrected, and thanks for the information. I do know the tranport managers try to run trucks at full cpacity to maximise earnings, but its also quite likely that most trucks are not up to full capacity which rather fudges the issue of axle loadings. Neither of us could prove it one way or the other.
I may have used the wrong figures, but the nub of the point is that most UK roads se far more UK Trucks than continentals and it is more than likley the majority of surface damage is caused by UK drivers. (Cars Trucks adn caravanners!)
Fundamentally though its is down to the durability of our road surfaces.

 

[Lutz]

I was referring to heavy goods vehicle traffic in the UK in general, not only that of foreign vehicles using UK roads. As by no means all countries allow 44 tonners, the majority of those vehicles coming to the UK will be 40 tonnes or less. The proportion of foreign five axled 44 tonners in the total UK traffic volume must therefore be insignificant and can hardly make any difference to damage to the road surface.
The maximum axle load permitted in the UK is 10 tonnes and this applies to all vehicles, whether UK or foreign registered. Hence, the road construction should be suitable for such axle loads.