LPG - New Website

[CliveV]

Following the campaign by the Dept of Trade & Industry to raise awareness of LPG as a cheaper and more environmentally friendly fuel the LP Gas association has re-launched the "BoostLPG" website.

The site is an independent comprehensive consumer guide to LPG Autogas in the UK and includes a calculator for both monetary savings and the CO2 savings to be expected from running vehicle on LPG.

www.boostlpg.com

 

[BigRoy]

Clive I had a quick look at the website as I was interested to see how LPG affected resale values.

In the FAQ section it states that it "may increase resale values" but I have heard stories that it can go the other way, so as someone who has experience of LPG, any comments on this.

 

[CliveV]

Hi Roy

A couple of years ago when there were not many LPG oulets, people did not know what it was and also MOST importantly, the fitting of an LPG conversion was not that well regulated all added up to suspision in the eyes of the public and the motor trade. So - not good for resale values.

HOWEVER! - At this point in time things are VERY much better. The motor trade has got to grips with the powershift scheme and LPG pumps are regular sitings at Petrol stations.

Result - same value for a LPG converted car (with a certified instalation) at worst - slightly higher value at best.

Not quite at the same premium as for diesel cars but catching up fast.

I fully concur with the "testimonials" on the site - "Once you drive on LPG - experience the savings - see the incredulous look on the MOT testers face when he tries to test your emmissions - see your engine oil being the same colour after 1000's of miles rather than the black goo when run on petrol -you rather get convinced!

As I say I can only speak from my experience and I have now done over 100K miles on LPG on a vehicle that had 75K miles when I bought it and now has done 177k miles.

It is super fuel - about 99 octane so engines run REALLY well but the calorific value is slightly less so consumption for the same power output is about 10% more. But at arround 42p per litre I can live with that!

 

[DavidW1]

Big Roy,

 

[BigRoy]

Big Roy,

Yes

 

[Lol1]

Big Roy,

Cummon, please say something, I have little hair as it is!

 

[rob_jax]

CliveV,

You got it slightly wrong with your Octane number statement, LPG when it leaves the refinery has an octane number of 90 compared to 95 for normal unleaded.

That's why you see a slight drop in power and between 5% and 10% worse mpg, but nothing to worry about.

Robert

 

[DavidW1]

Big Roy,

I endorse everything Clive says having enjoyed owning two LPG powered vehicles - the answer to your question on resale is that if it is manufacturer fitted rather than "converted " then you would probably realise a premium on resale but more importantly it would sell or be tradable easily. I went after several Rangies fitted with LPG earlier this year and most were sold before I could get on the phone.

Most LPG users, in my experience, are so chuffed with the advantages that they will be looking to replace the car with another gas powered vehicle at sale time anyway, so relative resale values between petrol or gas are academic

 

[BigRoy]

Big Roy,

I endorse everything Clive says having enjoyed owning two LPG powered vehicles - the answer to your question on resale is that if it is manufacturer fitted rather than "converted " then you would probably realise a premium on resale but more importantly it would sell or be tradable easily. I went after several Rangies fitted with LPG earlier this year and most were sold before I could get on the phone.

Most LPG users, in my experience, are so chuffed with the advantages that they will be looking to replace the car with another gas powered vehicle at sale time anyway, so relative resale values between petrol or gas are academic

Thanks for the reply David, I thought we'd lost you for a minute there

 

[CliveV]

Hi Rob-Jax/Robert

Not sure where you get your data - try Googling "LPG Octane Rating" - Loads of data confirming that LPG is 99 Octane.

From my own experience - I had to detune my Range Rover to run on unleaded when 4 star went whereas when I had it LPG converted they reset the timing for a higher octane fuel!!

Apparently I could set it to run for LPG at 99 octane but then it would run VERY badly on petrol if and when I had to do so.

There is a kit out now that adjusts an ECU on a more modern car to take advantage of the higher octane LPG.

What makes you think it is only 90 octane?

Everything I have read together with my own experience confirms that the octain rating is 99 but it has a lower calorific value. Certainly my 3.5L V8 simply purrs on LPG but runs very lumpily on petrol.

 

[CliveV]

Just to confirm the above:-

"A high octane fuel such as LPG has a lower energy content than lower octane gasoline, resulting in an overall lower power output at the regular compression ratio an engine ran at on gasoline. However, with an engine tuned to the use of LPG (ie. via higher compression ratios such as 12:1 instead of 8:1), this lower power output can be overcome. This is because higher-octane fuels allow for a higher compression ratio - this means less space in a cylinder on its combustion stroke, hence a higher cylinder temperature, less wasted hydrocarbons (therefore less pollution and wasted energy), and therefore higher power levels coupled with less pollution overall because of the greater efficiency."

This from one of the free encyclopedias

 

[MONKEY1]

Can your LPG car be serviced at a normal garages, and does the technician have to be Corgi registered ?

Monkeys Husband

 

[CliveV]

A normal garage has always dealt with mine - tho' anyone who specialises in Land Rovers can hardly be classified as normal - and I include myself in that.

In fact there is relatively little to an LPG system and the modern ones keep themselves in tune in the same way as a modern car adjusts itself via ever more "clever" ECU's

All the normal stuff - oil, filters, greasing etc still need to be done but probably wise to let the installer retune the system every year or so.

Do not mean to be pedantic but Corgi qualified guys are not what you need - they are qualified for household gas installations and maintenance. What is needed is an LP Gas Association certified installer.

With one of these you get a "certificate of conformity" without which you will have trouble getting insurance and selling the car when the time comes.

Worth paying a bit extra for a quality system and a quality installation.

 

[MONKEY1]

Thanks Clive for advice, I was just thinking (if the Corgi bit had been true)if your car or anyone else's for that matter was being serviced around Christmas forget it.they'll be to busy trying to repair peoples boilers!!!

Regards

 

[giovanni_5060838]

clive v, where did you get that octane rating stuff from,it

sounds like it came out of some yanky book. wilpedia or something.

like the 8 to 1 v 12 to 1, has to be a yank engine.

most european engines run around the 9.5 to 1.and can be run at

even higher ratios, but alas, not practicle.

anyway your piont is self defeating as petrol has a 25% higher

calorific value, which means its more effiecent.diesel has the

same if not bigger advantage over petrol.

now if you use less of a fuel,you are helping the environment,are

you not? and calorific value is the amount of energy stored in

the same quantity of different fuels.

lpg around 23

petrol around 29

diuesel around 40 whichever joules they use......

 

[Viking1]

Clive V

Sorry a bit late on this one. Been looking at the web site but all so had over thing on mind as well.

When we come to get new car in two years mite have a bit of work to do.

1 Which make of car or 4X4

2 Which type of fuel

3 What Kg it can pull

I think two is going to be the one that be a bit trick. With all the thing the car company are coming up with. Such as chip oil.

Mark

 

[CliveV]

Hi Mark

All I can say is have a look at the time you buy the car - The powershift scheme is under great pressure as more and more people take it up - my local garage is selling FAR more LPG than he was a year or so ago.

The government Powershift scheme was rumoured to be introducing monthly quotas due to demand - so you have to "book" your grant money and there is now a backlog I understand. Great when the idea is to reduce pollution! - put a restriction on the grants to do so - and we moan at the Americans!

I actually notice no difference in power at all on my vehicle but that is because I have it tuned for a "5 star" octane rating fuel.

People get confused because LPG does have a lower calorific value so theoretically you need more for the same given power, BUT because it has a FAR HIGHER OCTANE RATING - the engine runs far better and can be tuned to run on this higher octane fuel and so the low calorific value "negative" is offset by the high octane rating "positive"

As for towing ability etc - it will depend upon your choice of car.

Hope this helps

 

[CliveV]

Hi Gio

You are forgetting that LPG has a far higher Octane rating - nearly equivalent to the old 5 star petrol. Therefore whilst you are correct in saying that the calorific value is lower, this is offset by the more efficient running of the engine due to the high quality of the fuel. See my response to Mark above.

The fact that it has a low calorific value and is a gas is one of the prime reasons why LPG is SO environmentally friendly. The higher calorific value petrol and diesel cannot be burnt as efficiently as LPG - hence all the pollutants - particularly (no pun intended!) the unburnt particulate hydrocarbons with a diesel.

So the higher calorific value of diesel and petrol actually causes much of the pollution that requires expensive cat's to be fitted!

A petrol engine on LPG does not actually need a cat - sadly the law still requires one to be fitted but at least the LPG will let it last FAR longer.

Gio - you need to look at the problem holistically - not just pick on an item that SEEMS like a negative.

 

[CliveV]

clive v, where did you get that octane rating stuff from,it

sounds like it came out of some yanky book. wilpedia or something.

like the 8 to 1 v 12 to 1, has to be a yank engine.

most european engines run around the 9.5 to 1.and can be run at

even higher ratios, but alas, not practicle.

anyway your piont is self defeating as petrol has a 25% higher

calorific value, which means its more effiecent.diesel has the

same if not bigger advantage over petrol.

now if you use less of a fuel,you are helping the environment,are

you not? and calorific value is the amount of energy stored in

the same quantity of different fuels.

lpg around 23

petrol around 29

diuesel around 40 whichever joules they use......

Gio - This post started with my suggesting interested parties should look at the new www.boostlpg.com website.

If you want the answers to what you ask - have a look on here.

ALSO - do try "googling" LPG.

If you allow yourself - you will be impressed!

R

Clive

 

[rob_jax]

Hi Clive,

Where did I get my information that LPG is 90 Octane and not 99 as you say?

One of my jobs is to represent the UK at CEN TC19 on fuel standards.

Robert

 

[CliveV]

Hi Rob

Then why is it that everybody else is saying it is a higher octane rated fuel?

You do not have to research very deaply to see this - I could bury the forum in references to prove the point.

What makes you go against what 99% of others say Rob?

I respect your position but the evidence as I see it clearly indicates you are mistaken.

"The octane rating for LPG is very high compared to other fuel (LPG

 

[DavidW1]

Now come on guys - we don't want a toys out of the pram scenario here. Im not too hot on the hard sums and scientifik stuff myself, just a hands on engineer(before being put out to grass)but the proof is in the pudding.

Clive was, in his original post, just passing on some new info that might be of interest to vanners. He and I are both LPG converts, as you might have guessed and I think our opinion is influenced by experience, whilst a lot of the theorists on this thread have obviously never owned a gas powered vehicle long term and probably never even driven one. If you had, I think all your octainy and calorifiky outpourings would cease when you realised that your monthly fuel bill was less than half for the same miles travelled and that you were in fact making a positive contribution in the emission stakes.

Or to put it another way - Don't knock it till you've tried it!

 

[rob_jax]

I'm paid by the DTI for my CEN meetings and I don't know why this mistake has propagated, but I have an idea.

LPG from the refinery is guaranteed to be a minimum of 90 Octane and is generally around 91 to 92 octane.

The Octane number of a fuel is determined in a "standard" engine, which is actually a special engine that can have it's timing altered until it causes the combustion to knock.

Pure octane (a linear hydrocarbon with 8 carbon atoms) has a reference octane number of 0, and the 100 point is represented by 2,2,4 tri-methylypentane (a version of octane where the 8 carbon atoms are arranged in a highly branched manner).

A fuel with an Octane number of 50 would "knock" half way between the 0 and 100 reference points, and this could be made from a 50:50 mixture of the linear and branched octanes.

Getting closer to LPG:

If you ran the engine with pure Propane, which has 3 carbon atoms in a linear chain, the octane number would be 79. Butane (4 carbon atoms) is 67, and Pentane (5 carbon atoms) is 59

The more carbon atoms in a linear chain - the lower the octane number.

The more branching - the higher the octane number.

So if instead of the c-c-c-c-c arrangement of Pentane (Octane number 59) you used a fuel made from 2,2 dimethylpropane - which looks like the letter X with a carbon atom at the end of each arm and one in the centre - this has an octane number of 93.

LPG is a mixture of the linear and branched hydrocarbons, and the average value is around 90.

However, someone may be using the American "Research Octane Number" which uses different calibration points - and gives a number about 10% higher. Then the "octane" number would be above 100, but that's misleading, and exactly the same as saying 68

 

[CliveV]

But I thought LPG was primarily Propane and Butane - 3 and 4 C linier chains?

 

[Lol1]

Now come on guys - we don't want a toys out of the pram scenario here. Im not too hot on the hard sums and scientifik stuff myself, just a hands on engineer(before being put out to grass)but the proof is in the pudding.

Clive was, in his original post, just passing on some new info that might be of interest to vanners. He and I are both LPG converts, as you might have guessed and I think our opinion is influenced by experience, whilst a lot of the theorists on this thread have obviously never owned a gas powered vehicle long term and probably never even driven one. If you had, I think all your octainy and calorifiky outpourings would cease when you realised that your monthly fuel bill was less than half for the same miles travelled and that you were in fact making a positive contribution in the emission stakes.

Or to put it another way - Don't knock it till you've tried it!

Agreed.