Major Caravan Park Fire

[Thingy]

News just breaking locally
https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/news/local-news/live-caravan-park-fire-derbyshire-2689604

The fire service have confirmed this morning that around 35 caravans have been "significantly damaged" as a result of the blaze.

And
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-47718657

Thankfully, nobody appears to have been injured.

From the overhead view and proximity of the caravans, my first thoughts are that it was in the storage section, rather than among the pitches.

 

[ProfJohnL]

What a dreadful loss for so many people. Fortunately no one appears to have been injured.

Looking at the pictures and video's it was definitely the storage site, and it looks as though they were packed in with only about 1mtr between them.

On one of the video's flames can bee seen shooting upwards with a wooshing sound. This is almost certainly a gas bottle being subject to extreme heat venting excess pressure through its safety valve. This should be wake up call to all owners about leaving gas bottles in caravan when in storage. Its also one reason the fire service would not have approached the caravans too closely until the blaze was effectively out.

 

[Thingy]

Its certainly a viscious looking fire and given its not just storage but also a working caravan park, its incredible there have been no injuries. It will be very interesting to see the cause if it is found.
I only live 10 miles from this site, and I never even knew it was there.

 

[otherclive]

What a dreadful loss for so many people. Fortunately no one appears to have been injured.

Looking at the pictures and video's it was definitely the storage site, and it looks as though they were packed in with only about 1mtr between them.

On one of the video's flames can bee seen shooting upwards with a wooshing sound. This is almost certainly a gas bottle being subject to extreme heat venting excess pressure through its safety valve. This should be wake up call to all owners about leaving gas bottles in caravan when in storage. Its also one reason the fire service would not have approached the caravans too closely until the blaze was effectively out.

I have always removed the gas bottle whether in store or at home. Mainly because some years ago someone broke my front locker to steal the bottle. Might have been better to have left it unlocked and just secured with duct tape.

 

[Thingy]

This should be wake up call to all owners about leaving gas bottles in caravan when in storage.

Yes, but it should also be a wake up call to storage site owners, possibly a rule that gas bottles should be removed, maybe an insurance clause too.

 

[CustardAvenger]

I have always removed the gas bottle whether in store or at home. Mainly because some years ago someone broke my front locker to steal the bottle. Might have been better to have left it unlocked and just secured with duct tape.

Where should gas bottles be stored? I assume keeping them in the gas locker is only an issue if a fire starts?

 

[Raywood]

I am sorry for those who have lost out in the blaze which looks to be in the storage area.
I am afraid that fire in a storage area will always be a severe problem as storage needs them closer than on site and fire will spread because of this.
I am not sure that removing gas bottles is the answer as they are strong enough to resist a fire for the length of time it takes to burn out a caravan. If you take them out you still have to store them somewhere and many people do not have anywhere better.

 

[otherclive]

I have always removed the gas bottle whether in store or at home. Mainly because some years ago someone broke my front locker to steal the bottle. Might have been better to have left it unlocked and just secured with duct tape.

Where should gas bottles be stored? I assume keeping them in the gas locker is only an issue if a fire starts?

Mine sit down the garden wrapped in an old plastic bag behind the water butts. The butts have torpex linear shaped charge cord around them for rapid drenching in case of fire! All activated by an app 😗

 

[ProfJohnL]

We do not know how the fire started, but its unlikely to have been a gas cylinder problem that caused it. It could be a pigtail that has time expired and started to leak, or the old low pressure flexible pipes.

Its more likely the fire started for other reasons, and becasue gas cylinders were still in some caravans, as the bottles heat up the pressure rises and bottles conforming the UK standards do have an over pressure relief valve built into the vapour take off valve. When the pressure is exceeded , the valve releases and vents gas. The internal pressure will drop quite quickly so the valve will close again, but in the heat of fire it will repeatedly vent gas as indicated by the whooshes and the pulsating ball of flames.

The problem the fire service has, is first of all knowing if any cylinders are still in any caravans, secondly they don't know if they are UK spec, and Ill come back to this point in a moment.

Thirdly they don't know if the cylinders are secured or loose or upright (as the should be)

They don't know if the cylinders are full or empty.

If a cylinder is on its side, and there is sufficient liquified gas to cover the valve, of the over pressure valve operates, then it wont vent gas it will vent liquid. It can physically project liquified gas over quite distance. and what ever it lands on can suffer significant frost burns as the liquid tries to vapourise, and of course once its in its vapour stated and mixed with enough air it is highly flammable.

Non UK spec bottles may not have the pressure relief valve, which means the pressure inside the bottle can rise potentially enough to reach the hydraulic rupture pressure. This would then spray a mixture of vapour and liquid LPG all around. You do not want to be anywhere near when that happens.

The other failure mode of some bottles is the brass valve may soften enough in the high temperatures to allow the pressure to eject the valve, Which would be like a missile, and then the vapour will be released violently and with considerable thrust. If the bottle is secured upright, the vent will be directly upwards and the cylinder will be pressed to the ground, the fire service prefer to allow that to burn off rather than having unburnt gas sloshing around under foot. If the cylinder is loose and can fall over or its already on its side the sudden loss of the valve
assembly releasing the pressurised gas will tun the cylinder into a ballistic missile that can do a lot of damage.

The fire service are most likely to spray water onto gas bottles to try and keep them cool. If they are already venting and a flame is established, provided its not likely endanger people or set anything else alight they would prefer to leave the vent burning so there is no residue of flammable gas left lying at low points or collecting in drains in the area.

Whilst Rays point about cylinder being robust enough to survive the time it takes for one caravan to burn down may true, the continued exposure due to neighboring units succumbing could well exceed the safety margins. And that is high probability in a storage yard especially where there is little gap between units to provide a fire break. Also whilst it may be true for UK spec. bottles Foreign imports may not be built to the same standards.

What to do with gas bottles. Places that store gas bottles have to follow a code of practice, where by the storage facility is away from other flammable or vulnerable materials and open drains. Bottles have to be stored in a covered secured well ventilated space often a an open mesh cage, and and bottles must stored upright and prevented from falling over.

Such cages are a common sight at LPG dealers, and at many recycling centers. If caravan storage sites were required to have such cages, and system that would allow them to identify each customer's bottle(s) the might reduce the scale of damage when such sorry events occur. It would have to be a condition of storage that all gas bottles are removed from caravans and stored in the cage.

 

[Parksy]

My gas bottle is properly stored in the caravan gas locker when the caravan is in storage.
My reasoning is that in the unfortunate event of a fire, the fire service might reasonably expect to encounter lpg bottles stored in caravan gas lockers, the locker has the correct label on the front to warn that lpg is stored whereas the fire service wouldn't be so well informed if I kept the bottles in my garage or garden shed.
Nobody lives very close to the caravan, but at home we're surrounded by our neighbours.
On balance it's less risky to leave my gas bottles on the caravan.

 

[Thingy]

Nobody lives very close to the caravan

I do, the rear of the caravan is about 2 feet from our front door.

We do not know how the fire started,

True, but I could hazard a guess. There is a housing estate almost adjacent to the site, quite a small estate, but over the years has caused problems way way beyond its size.

 

[otherclive]

Shouldn’t get too paranoid about where you store bottles as I suspect that we all have neighbours with gas bbq and patio heaters etc all which sit adjacent to the house. Just need to be sensible about storage and turning off when not in use.

 

[Craigyoung]

Shouldn’t get too paranoid about where you store bottles as I suspect that we all have neighbours with gas bbq and patio heaters etc all which sit adjacent to the house. Just need to be sensible about storage and turning off when not in use.

Exactly , it doesn't matter if one person or 100 people remove gas bottles chance is if one goes up in storage theres going to be quite a few that follow

 

[ProfJohnL]

I think you are missing the point. This is about a storage site where there will be a lot of other peoples property that could be affected as we have seen.

The fire at the storage yard was almost certainly made more ferocious becasue of the gas bottles being left in caravans whilst tightly packed at the site. It is my considered opinion that if all the gas bottles had been removed from the caravans and stored in a dedicated gas bottle storage area, the fire would [strike]not[/strike] have had less fuel to burn, so it would spread less quickly, and the radiation from the fire would have been less so fewer nearby caravans would have been affected.

It is also possible that if the fire crews knew there were no gas bottles in the caravans, they may have been able to get closer to tackle the seat of the fire sooner.

A separate storage area for cylinders is good move for fire prevention, and it would not surprise me if more storage facilities begin to adopt a no bottle policy or a compulsory separate bottle storage compound.

 

[Craigyoung]

I understand what you are saying but mine is knocked off and shut-off and isolated when I leave my caravan in storage , I normally haven't got any room to put it in the car when travelling back 15 mile with it and I'll not put it between my wife's legs in the front seat or the boot , imagining travelling back and having a road traffic collision or accident ... 🙁

 

[otherclive]

I think you are missing the point. This is about a storage site where there will be a lot of other peoples property that could be affected as we have seen.

The fire at the storage yard was almost certainly made more ferocious becasue of the gas bottles being left in caravans whilst tightly packed at the site. It is my considered opinion that if all the gas bottles had been removed from the caravans and stored in a dedicated gas bottle storage area, the fire would not have had less fuel to burn, so it would spread less quickly, and the radiation from the fire would have been less so fewer nearby caravans would have been affected.

It is also possible that if the fire crews knew there were no gas bottles in the caravans, they may have been able to get closer to tackle the seat of the fire sooner.

A separate storage area for cylinders is good move for fire prevention, and it would not surprise me if more storage facilities begin to adopt a no bottle policy or a compulsory separate bottle storage compound.

My CASSOA Gold site condition of storage para7:
"7. In order to comply with The Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005 all gas bottles are to be switched off/removed when the vehicle is on site. No other noxious, hazardous or explosive substances or preparations are allowed on site."

Doesn't come any clearer than that does it? Not exactly a model of plain English and quite ambiguous.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I understand what you are saying but mine is knocked off and shut-off and isolated when I leave my caravan in storage , I normally haven't got any room to put it in the car when travelling back 15 mile with it and I'll not put it between my wife's legs in the front seat or the boot , imagining travelling back and having a road traffic collision or accident ... 🙁

Gas bottles should never be transported in cars, any leakage in the confined space of car along with so many electrical contacts has enormous potential for a very disruptive fire or explosion. During the training I did as an LPG fitter, we were shown pictures of a car where its roof had been blown off following an LPG liquid leak inside the car. It only needed about 1.4L of of LPG Liquid to expand to about 400L of gas at 1Bar and mix to create an explosive mixture giving about 10kWh explosion of energy. Smaller leaks will do serious harm to any occupants.

My suggestion is that sites should start to provide gas bottle storage cages to stop the need to transport bottles.

 

[Thingy]

The fire brigade has just announced arson and put the investigation in police hands.

 

[otherclive]

I understand what you are saying but mine is knocked off and shut-off and isolated when I leave my caravan in storage , I normally haven't got any room to put it in the car when travelling back 15 mile with it and I'll not put it between my wife's legs in the front seat or the boot , imagining travelling back and having a road traffic collision or accident ... 🙁

Gas bottles should never be transported in cars, any leakage in the confined space of car along with so many electrical contacts has enormous potential for a very disruptive fire or explosion. During the training I did as an LPG fitter, we were shown pictures of a car where its roof had been blown off following an LPG liquid leak inside the car. It only needed about 1.4L of of LPG Liquid to expand to about 400L of gas at 1Bar and mix to create an explosive mixture giving about 10kWh explosion of energy. Smaller leaks will do serious harm to any occupants.

My suggestion is that sites should start to provide gas bottle storage cages to stop the need to transport bottles.

Prof
How did you acquire your bottles when time came for an exchange? I accept that gas can be enormously destructive but when assessing risk it’s necessary to consider the probability of an event and it’s consequences. In such a context I don’t consider it to be an unacceptable risk to take my bottle to and from the storage site or taking it to exchange for a new bottle.
Following your approach families going on camping holidays wouldn’t be able to carry their Camping Gaz cooker cylinders or folks wanting a bbq shouldn’t trot off to the garden center for a bbq gas refill. After all sitting in a car with 70 litres of diesel or petrol isn’t risk free.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Clive,

I was very lucky, becasue I was authorised to refill bottles for the brand we used from a bulk storage tank with a high pressure pump. If we needed to take them off site we would use a drop side lorry, or a trailer (or caravan) with the necessary restraints to keep them upright. If it was on site we would use a fork lift with a special bottle carrier.

There are ways to move bottles without having them inside cars or vans.

 

[Parksy]

Hello Clive,

I was very lucky, becasue I was authorised to refill bottles for the brand we used from a bulk storage tank with a high pressure pump. If we needed to take them off site we would use a drop side lorry, or a trailer (or caravan) with the necessary restraints to keep them upright. If it was on site we would use a fork lift with a special bottle carrier.

There are ways to move bottles without having them inside cars or vans.

Sorry Prof but most of us live in the real world.
How many of us do you suppose have access to the resources that you described?
We don't live in a risk free world, but I've not seen reports of caravan owners blowing themselves to Kingdom Come when taking reasonable precautions to safely exchange their LPG bottles as the vast majority of us do.

 

[Damian]

Quote " . It is my considered opinion that if all the gas bottles had been removed from the caravans and stored in a dedicated gas bottle storage area, the fire would not have had less fuel to burn, so it would spread less quickly,"

I have underlined the point I now wish to make.
You are indeed right, regardless of where the gas cylinders were, the caravan would still have the same amount of fuel to burn , and having seen the devastation caused by a caravan fire where gas cylinders were not involved, due to the closeness of vans in storage the same outcome would have ensued. It would have spread just as quickly.

As far as carriage and storage of cylinders is concerned, in Health & Safety land the dangers are in print and the correct management of cylinders is well documented, but , and it is a big BUT, most people do not live in H&S land and take certain risks in all kinds of activities, if we did not, no one would venture out of their house (assuming their house had no dangers within, which is impossible).

The Calor cylinders not only have the shut off valve, which can , and do, sometimes leak, but also the black bung which screws into the outlet is a gas tight seal, as a secondary safety feature.

As with most things, as long as reasonable precautions are taken there should be no problem, but of course the onus is on the individual to take those precautions or risk the consequences.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Clive,

I was very lucky, becasue I was authorised to refill bottles for the brand we used from a bulk storage tank with a high pressure pump. If we needed to take them off site we would use a drop side lorry, or a trailer (or caravan) with the necessary restraints to keep them upright. If it was on site we would use a fork lift with a special bottle carrier.

There are ways to move bottles without having them inside cars or vans.

Sorry Prof but most of us live in the real world.
How many of us do you suppose have access to the resources that you described?
We don't live in a risk free world, but I've not seen reports of caravan owners blowing themselves to Kingdom Come when taking reasonable precautions to safely exchange their LPG bottles as the vast majority of us do.

Hello Parksy,
I know my situation was different, which is why I opened my comment with " I was very lucky"

I have known many people who have carried gas bottles in cars without incident, but that does not change or reduce the hazards of the process, the risk is there. The advice is still that gas bottles should not be carried in cars.

I am certain there will be some users who have never thought of the risks, so perhaps even now they will be more careful.

Having explained the reasoning behind the advice, presently in the absence of formal regulation it is indeed up to each individual to decide if they want to risk it or not.

Despite the cematics of that aspect there are ways to exchange gas bottles that don't necesitate putting then inside a car. Many caravan sites do exchange Calor. Some suppliers deliver, use a trailer, etc.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Damian,
Thank you for highlighting my quote, which I realise contained a mistake, the word "not" should not have been there. I have amended my original post , but of course your copy will still show it.

I'm certain that even if storage sites do presently state that gas bottles should be removed, there will be some users who do leave bottles in site, and sadly the fire service will always have to consider that probability when takling caravan fires.

I do agree the spread of the fire in a tightly packed storage facility will be rapid, but if gas bottles are venting, it is adding a very pure fuel to the situation which will raise the temperature more, and that introduces a greater radiant risk to items that may not have been within the reach of the flames. The plastics used in caravan walls will be at greater risk of deformation if not actually setting alight.

Regardless of these discussions, the compound fire will have devistated the affected owners. Caravans can be replaced, and even if some had particular sentimental meaning, it's not all gone as memories will still remain. So let's hope the insurers sort it out ass quickly and painlessly as possible.

 

[Parksy]

Hello Clive,

I was very lucky, becasue I was authorised to refill bottles for the brand we used from a bulk storage tank with a high pressure pump. If we needed to take them off site we would use a drop side lorry, or a trailer (or caravan) with the necessary restraints to keep them upright. If it was on site we would use a fork lift with a special bottle carrier.

There are ways to move bottles without having them inside cars or vans.

Sorry Prof but most of us live in the real world.
How many of us do you suppose have access to the resources that you described?
We don't live in a risk free world, but I've not seen reports of caravan owners blowing themselves to Kingdom Come when taking reasonable precautions to safely exchange their LPG bottles as the vast majority of us do.

Hello Parksy,
I know my situation was different, which is why I opened my comment with " I was very lucky"

I have known many people who have carried gas bottles in cars without incident, but that does not change or reduce the hazards of the process, the risk is there. The advice is still that gas bottles should not be carried in cars.

I am certain there will be some users who have never thought of the risks, so perhaps even now they will be more careful.

Having explained the reasoning behind the advice, presently in the absence of formal regulation it is indeed up to each individual to decide if they want to risk it or not.

Despite the cematics of that aspect there are ways to exchange gas bottles that don't necesitate putting then inside a car. Many caravan sites do exchange Calor. Some suppliers deliver, use a trailer, etc.

How many people do you know who have carried gas bottles in their car which have caught fire or exploded? 😱hmy: