Manual or Automatic ?

[Dustydog]

How slow is creep? I don't see a difference, I have had no issues with any sort of slow speed control.

If it starts to creep too quickly, I believe VW fitted brakes. Maybe I'll have to look for them, Ah found them, always wondered what the second pedal was for.

🙃🙃OK should have said an extremely slow velocity like on inch every ten seconds🙀

 

[otherclive]

🙃🙃OK should have said an extremely slow velocity like on inch every ten seconds🙀

I think very few would move at that velocity even when hitching up. The mover is faster than that. . What scenarios are you envisaging?

 

[Jcloughie]

I agree that crawling speed and full control is important. I know the questions is about EV’s, but to emphasise the problem. This is the whole reason I got rid of my MG ZS auto. It looked nice, was comfortable, quiet(ish), And overall good value for money. But at slow speed it was useless. The high revving engine, combined to the auto box made it want to be going a few mph instantly. To add, the electronic hand brake was viscous, as was the hold break, although that could be cancelled.

Getting into tight spaces was stressful.

I think it was down to the poor quality of design and engineering. The manual, with an old fashioned hand brake may not be a problem.

John

 

[Dustydog]

I think very few would move at that velocity even when hitching up. The mover is faster than that. . What scenarios are you envisaging?

That was tic😎. Slow enough to achieve a safe reverse of the caravan into a tight spot.

The three types of transmission being discussed aren’t the same I know. DSG is variable depending on make. Tobes has kindly explained EV.
I know my TC is infinitely smooth and can be super slow using the brake if need be.

 

[RogerL]

How slow is creep? I don't see a difference, I have had no issues with any sort of slow speed control.

If it starts to creep too quickly, I believe VW fitted brakes. Maybe I'll have to look for them, Ah found them, always wondered what the second pedal was for.

In a somewhat idealised situation with huge torque from a large capacity turbo-diesel, the brakes are the only sensible way to control the speed as the idle torque is enough to break site speed limits of 5mph - on smaller capacity engine, a combination of throttle and brakes may be needed.

 

[otherclive]

My Kia has DCT and in almost all respects is a delight to drive, giving good performance and economy. Perhaps not as bad as John C’s MG but it’s not at all relaxing at very slow speed when manoeuvring. Arriving home before coming on to the drive I turn Autohold off, and front parking sensors on. The drive has a slight uphill slope. Aiming to drive it and park close to the house wall dead ahead requires careful use of the throttle with right foot and gentle on the brake with left foot. Even then I generally chicken out before the front sensors have really established a continuous tone. Using EPB isn’t an option given its binary nature, and then I would need to switch stop start off.

I’ve never been so “involved” in any previous car whether manual, cvt or TC auto. The Skoda DSG wasn’t that great at slow speed, but it had a traditional lever parking brake that could be used to balance things fir a smoother landing approach.

 

[Dustydog]

My Kia has DCT and in almost all respects is a delight to drive, giving good performance and economy. Perhaps not as bad as John C’s MG but it’s not at all relaxing at very slow speed when manoeuvring. Arriving home before coming on to the drive I turn Autohold off, and front parking sensors on. The drive has a slight uphill slope. Aiming to drive it and park close to the house wall dead ahead requires careful use of the throttle with right foot and gentle on the brake with left foot. Even then I generally chicken out before the front sensors have really established a continuous tone. Using EPB isn’t an option given its binary nature, and then I would need to switch stop start off.

I’ve never been so “involved” in any previous car whether manual, cvt or TC auto. The Skoda DSG wasn’t that great at slow speed, but it had a traditional lever parking brake that could be used to balance things fir a smoother landing approach.

Is it correct to say the DCT and DSG are the same?

 

[otherclive]

Is it correct to say the DCT and DSG are the same?

Both are twin clutch auto gearboxes but not the same manufacturer. DSG are fitted to VAG group cars. Wheras DCT seems to be more generic. Ford call theirs Powershift.

Here are details of Kia/Hyundai units. Wikipedia describes DSG.

Gears Magazine - The D7GF1 and D7UF1 - A Closer Look at Hyundai/Kia DCTs

Dual-clutch transmissions have become more prevalent in a quest to improve car fuel efficiency. The absence of a torque converter and an engine-driven oil pump significantly reduces horsepower consumption. Also, adding a direct mechanical transfer of torque through gears produces the most...

gearsmagazine.com

 

[Tobes]

In a somewhat idealised situation with huge torque from a large capacity turbo-diesel, the brakes are the only sensible way to control the speed as the idle torque is enough to break site speed limits of 5mph - on smaller capacity engine, a combination of throttle and brakes may be needed.

The issue here is always the spinning engine. You have to have some mechanism to get from always turning to barely turning in a gear ratio that is too high for the movement speed. In ICE cars, there are three ways of doing this.
- Manual clutch (ride the clutch, excess energy is dumped as heat in the clutch plates). The user has as fine a control as their foot will allow.
- Torque Converter auto (excess energy is dumped as heat in the transmission fluid cooler). Fine control is defined by the grabbiness of the brakes which will hold the car agains the transmission.
- Dual clutch. (Excess energy dumped as heat in the DCT). Control here is at the mercy of the computer that runs the DSG and modulates the clutch and the brakes. This (I am told) can be horrible. I confess, I have never driven one.

For DD - the beauty of EV is the basic problem changes totally. There is no spinning engine. The electric motor will deliver huge torque at minute RPM (as in 0 RPM). This means that the low speed control is as fine as the software that decides how the car will respond. It can be superb (as in the Polestar) or not quite so superb (as in the Fiat).

I should say though, my comparison of the Fiat is against the Polestar, which is the most precise low speed car I have ever driven. In comparison to my children's old manual Kia Picante, or the old XC90 TC auto, it's actually very good.

 

[Jcloughie]

I am concluding that, like ICE cars, EV cars are variable depending on how well the engineering is done. My experience of ICE is definitely so. But my very limited experience of EV’s has been excellent delivery of power. I have only driven Moka EV loan cars. Short range but quite impressive.

How slow is creep? I don't see a difference, I have had no issues with any sort of slow speed control.

If it starts to creep too quickly, I believe VW fitted brakes. Maybe I'll have to look for them, Ah found them, always wondered what the second pedal was for.

Clearly you have not tried an MG ZS auto.

I was aware of the location and application of the brake pedal. But the lurch is such, I was always nervous I could get to the brake in time. Also, this made for very uncomfortable mamovering.

Perhaps premium cars are needed for better engineering.

John

 

[ProfJohnL]

🙃🙃OK should have said an extremely slow velocity like on inch every ten seconds🙀

Show me an ICE that creeps that slowly! Why would you want or expect an EV to be slower than an ICE?

As I have stated, as far as I can tell EV's are smoother in their low speed pick up, and certainly no less usable than any ICE manual or automatic, and they have the benefit of not slipping the clutch because the when stationary the electric motor is also stationary so the clutch can be fully engaged. It simply uses the electric motors torque (max torque at zero rpm) which is why my VW passat PHEV is actually much smoother than my previous Diesel Passat which did have to re engage the clutch when pulling away.

 

[Dustydog]

Show me an ICE that creeps that slowly! Why would you want or expect an EV to be slower than an ICE?

As I have stated, as far as I can tell EV's are smoother in their low speed pick up, and certainly no less usable than any ICE manual or automatic, and they have the benefit of not slipping the clutch because the when stationary the electric motor is also stationary so the clutch can be fully engaged. It simply uses the electric motors torque (max torque at zero rpm) which is why my VW passat PHEV is actually much smoother than my previous Diesel Passat which did have to re engage the clutch when pulling away.

I suggest you go back over the last few pages and note I said tic!

I never said I expect an EV to be slower than an ICE!
Where did that come from?

The good news is John C, Roger ,Otherclive and Tobes have taken the trouble to explain their own experiences all of which helps other Forumites get a better understanding of the different fuel types for manoeuvring a caravan.
It is very important on Forums to ask questions that stimulate constructive answers even if I personally know the answer.

You will further note I do have first hand experience of my sons new 24 plate Volvo XC Recharge.

 

[Buckman]

Many autos creep slowly if the brake is not applied. Speed of creeping can depend on the incline of the road. Changing from a 5 speed box to the current 8 speed I had to be very careful accelerating when reversing as it seemed that the gear ratio for reverse also changed.

Worst was it had an auto braking when reversing and detecting any obstacle it would slam on the brakes unexpectedly. I have now disengaged that option.

 

[Challenger]

I firmly resisted going down the auto route over many miles of driving in a wide range of cars... then I bougt my Mercedes.
What a fool I had been ovet all those preceding years. I now hate driving my wife's manual gearbox car .
Towing with an auto is especially an all round better experience.

 

[trevormonty]

I don't why manuals are still so popular in UK given most users would drive in heavy traffic. NZ market is now dominated by autos with lot cars never offered in manual form because of low sales volumes.

 

[Hutch]

There is another thing, if you passed your driving test in an automatic car, then before you can drive a car with a manual gearbox you would have to take another test.
I suppose EV cars are the same, I don't know.

 

[otherclive]

There is another thing, if you passed your driving test in an automatic car, then before you can drive a car with a manual gearbox you would have to take another test.
I suppose EV cars are the same, I don't know.

Yes they are classed as auto. My grandsons partner took her test in an ICE auto because she didn’t anticipate ever driving an ICE as she wanted some form of electric car either hybrid, PHEV or EV.

 

[RogerL]

I don't why manuals are still so popular in UK given most users would drive in heavy traffic. NZ market is now dominated by autos with lot cars never offered in manual form because of low sales volumes.

The reason historically is that UK fuel has always been heavily taxed, ie expensive, and the fuel consumption difference between manuals and older automatics was significant - the same expensive fuel also accounted for the UK's use of low powered small capacity engines which gave a double whammy of reduced performance when coupled to an automatic.

 

[RogerL]

There is another thing, if you passed your driving test in an automatic car, then before you can drive a car with a manual gearbox you would have to take another test.
I suppose EV cars are the same, I don't know.

Yes - but it won't matter as almost all cars will be automatic in a generation or two.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Automatics (Fluid fly wheel or Dual clutch) do have some benefits when buying second hand. It's virtually impossible to thrash the engines to an inch of their lives, as the auto box and engine management usually prevents the driver form over revving the engine. The gear changes are less likely to be crashed, so its a kinder operating environment both the engine and gearbox.

This was probably why the police force mentioned previously saw better reliability.

 

[RogerL]

Automatics (Fluid fly wheel or Dual clutch) do have some benefits when buying second hand. It's virtually impossible to thrash the engines to an inch of their lives, as the auto box and engine management usually prevents the driver form over revving the engine. The gear changes are less likely to be crashed, so its a kinder operating environment both the engine and gearbox.

This was probably why the police force mentioned previously saw better reliability.

On a pedantic note - "fluid flywheels" were a historical step in transmission evolution that haven't been used for decades - "torque converters" were an evolution from fluid flywheels and were/are more efficient.

The torque converter multiplies the engine torque by a factor of 2.0-2.5 during acceleration which is then transmitted through the gearbox to the driven wheels.

 

[Pamplona]

I am very much a newbie and thought I knew better when deciding that my Hyundai Kona would be enough to tow our Bailey Discovery (1100kgs )
I’m looking at changing to a Hyundai Tucson or Kia Sportage.
My query is Manual or Automatic.🧐
Some advice is only go for manual to tow …….others say it doesn’t matter…but this was advice from non caravan owners !
Any advice from caravanners would be gratefully received….

I tow a twin axel caravan I have an automatic car with an 8 speed tiptronic box, also paddles for gear changing if I require to make changes, but as someone said earlier in the thread automatic boxes are much more intelligent these days.

 

[trevormonty]

For modern turbo petrol or diesel auto work well as they produce max torque at low revs. Non petrol really need 2.5L or greater for caravan towing in which auto will be fine.
Avoid the DSG transmissions, they don't like crawling or reversing uphill especially with caravan.

NB I tow a 1100kg caravan with 1.4T Vitara auto AWD never felt needed any more power. Handling can be issue in strong winds, but otherwise its fine. There is no getting around laws of physics for handling, heavy tow cars with long wheelbases are always going be better.

 

[Mr Plodd]

I have a TC diesel auto. When reversing in confined spaces I don't need to touch the throttle, the car creeps (even on a moderate slope) and I control it's movements entirely on the brake pedal.

Having spent the best part of 30 years driving manual traffic patrol cars, having been taught how to drive EXCEEDINGLY well, and very quickly, I STILL drive an automatic because that's what I like. Others prefer manuals,

I could agree with them, but then we would both be wrong

 

[Jcloughie]

I have a TC diesel auto. When reversing in confined spaces I don't need to touch the throttle, the car creeps (even on a moderate slope) and I control it's movements entirely on the brake pedal.

Having spent the best part of 30 years driving manual traffic patrol cars, having been taught how to drive EXCEEDINGLY well, and very quickly, I STILL drive an automatic because that's what I like. Others prefer manuals,

I could agree with them, but then we would both be wrong

TC ? Please inform.

John