Max towing weight **MUST** be more than MTPLM - discuss?

[Dave E]

I have read that the Max towing weight of a car MUST be more than the MTPLM of the van. Is this true / a legal requirement?

It's obvious (I think) that in practice you should not ever exceed the maximum towing weight of the car.

However, if the van is lightly loaded with less user weight, resulting in an actual load of less than the maximum towing weight of the car, is this OK?

I have a car with a maximum towing weight of 1600kg, and am considering a van with a MTPLM of 1601kg. Strictly speaking, would this be illegal?

 

[Lutz]

Yes, it's absolutely legal, even if the caravan were fully laden to the limit, because the towing weight is NOT the total weight of the caravan (i.e. its MTPLM) but only its total axle load, the difference of course being the noseweight. However, the noseweight is treated as part of the total towcar weight (its GVW) so it is not counted again in the towing weight.

 

[Dave E]

Thanks for the clear explanation.

 

[chris_5068897]

Lutz, your description doesn't make sense to me.Sure there is a load on the axle(s) and tow hitch, so the the weight of the van must be the sum of these. After all, if you were to move some weight from the front of the van rearwards to achieve a nil load on the hitch, the axle load would increase, but the weight of the van is unchanged?

Again noseweight cannot be part of the cars weight. It applies a load to the rear suspension, and the noseweight should therefore be deducted from the load the car manufacturer says can be carried in the boot. Kerbweight and/or the maximum braked trailer weight specified by the car manufacturer are the relevent weights...

 

[Lutz]

I don't see any contradiction between your statements and mine but to clear things up, let me go over it again:

As you correctly say, the total weight of the caravan is the sum of the noseweight and the total axle load. Now, if the noseweight is treated as part of the payload of the car, (which I think you also correctly appreciate), that leaves the car with towing the axle load of the caravan only. Otherwise, the noseweight would be counted twice, once as part of the gross vehicle weight of the car and again as part of the towload. This clearly results in double counting and is therefore wrong, so the car is actually towing ONLY the axle load and NOT its total weight.

 

[Lutz]

For he above reasons, it is therefore the axle loads that the car manufacturers refer to in their specifications regarding towing limits, not total weights. This is also the way towing limits are defined in the respective standards.

 

[Icemaker]

it may be legal in a very stretched sence of the word and only if you do not exceed the total train weight but if you do exceed the cars maximum tow weight you will instantly invalidate the warranty and if stopped you may find that you have invalidated your insurance by using the car for a purpose other than what it was designed for, ie towing a maximum load of 1600 kgs. although you may be right lutz and on this occassion i am a bit reluctant to agree with you (no mallice meant) i think it goes right against the grain of safety to advice that anybody should or could tow above the maximum tow weight of any car, above the kerbweight yes if the tow weight is greater but never above the tow weight, lets not forget that a large proportion of manufacturers state the train weight as the maximum tow weight plus lerb weight. please dont take my reply as anything other than opinion its just the way i see it from past postings.

 

[Lutz]

Not once have I ever said that one may tow at more than according to the manufacturer's specification, Icemaker. But, as I have stressed all along, the towing limits quoted by the manufacturer are NOT the total weight of the trailer but only its axle load.

Unless further restrictions apply, the maximum permissible gross train weight is usually the sum of the vehicle's max. gross vehicle weight and the maximum permissible towload. As the noseweight is already included in the gross vehicle weight, the towload MUST be only the axle load of the trailer (or caravan), or one would be counting noseweight twice.

 

[Icemaker]

Lutz, very sorry don't wish to upset you but the original question was; I have a car with a maximum towing weight of 1600kg, and am considering a van with a MTPLM of 1601kg. Strictly speaking, would this be illegal?. you have replied that it is "absolutely legal even if the caravan were fully laden to the limit". this would of cource mean that dave is towing above the max tow weight of his car all be it by only 1 kg but still above the limit. nose weight has absolutely nothing to do with mtplm, if the police stop a caravan and weigh it they weigh the whole outfit and the max tow weight and total train weight are the weights they consider.

 

[Lutz]

No, Icemaker, he would not be towing over the limit. If the maximum towing weight is 1600kg then this refers to the axle load only. The MTPLM is, however, axle load plus noseweight, so if the noseweight is 75kg, he can legally tow a caravan with an MTPLM of 1675kg.

The MTPLM may always be higher (by the amount of the noseweight) than the maximum towing weight that the car manufacturer specifies.

 

[adrian_5071472]

No, Icemaker, he would not be towing over the limit. If the maximum towing weight is 1600kg then this refers to the axle load only. The MTPLM is, however, axle load plus noseweight, so if the noseweight is 75kg, he can legally tow a caravan with an MTPLM of 1675kg.

The MTPLM may always be higher (by the amount of the noseweight) than the maximum towing weight that the car manufacturer specifies.

surely the maximum towweight has nothing to do with it,i always thought that the kerbweight of the car was the most you could tow at,so if your kerbweight was,say 1500kg that was your maximum towing limit wether the manufacturer says it can tow more or not.or have i got it wrong?

 

[Icemaker]

No, Icemaker, he would not be towing over the limit. If the maximum towing weight is 1600kg then this refers to the axle load only. The MTPLM is, however, axle load plus noseweight, so if the noseweight is 75kg, he can legally tow a caravan with an MTPLM of 1675kg.

The MTPLM may always be higher (by the amount of the noseweight) than the maximum towing weight that the car manufacturer specifies.

Adrian, you can tow more than your cars kerbweight if the max tow weight is higher, eg my alhambra has a kerbweight of 1760 kgs but it has a max tow weight of 2000 ks so i can tow up to this limit as long as i do not exceed the total train weight which is 4000kgs. with my car weighing 1760 and my van loaded to its mtplm of 1630 kgs i have a total weight of 3490 kgs which means i could theoretically put 510 kgs of luggage and passengers in my car before i reach the total train weight. it is however a recomendation (only) that novice towers do not exceed 85% of the cars kerbweight and with a caravan you should not really exceed 100% kerbweight allthough this is only a recomendation.

 

[Icemaker]

sorry don't agree, if the police stopped you for a check in no way would they accept that you where towing within the law. if my car had a 1600 kg max tow load and i put my van on a weigh bridge and it weighed 1675 kgs they would throw the book at you. to even think that the nose weight would not count does not make sense, if the van weighed 1675 kgs then the tow bar has got to pull 1675 kgs the tow bar can not ignore 75 kgs just becouse it is pushing down on it the weight is still present and would act as a force on the bar when you accelerated or braked. when i have been weighed in the past the ministry have allways weighed the car and van together then the van seperately, they never consider the nose weight.

 

[Ewan_5130997]

Another point you cant forget is your driving licence entitlement. The attached exerpt from the DVLA website might help (or further confuse matters)

Category B vehicles (family cars) may be coupled with a trailer up to 750kgs MAM (allowing a combined weight up to 4.25 tonnes MAM) or a trailer over 750kgs MAM (eg caravan) provided the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the towing vehicle, and the combination does not exceed 3.5 tonnes MAM.

 

[Ewan_5130997]

Sorry guys. I seem to have just confused matters with my last post. That info from dvla refers to drivers who past their test after 1/1/97. Us slighter 'older' folk retain a class B + E entitlement which allows us to pull heavier trailers.

 

[Lutz]

Yes, Ewan, that is an additional point to watch.

However, I'm sorry to say, Icemaker, you've still got it wrong. If the caravan weighs 1675kg in total and is then hitched up to the car, then the car takes 75kg of that total as noseweight. The remaining 1600kg is the towload and that is what the car manufacturers specify when they quote their towing limits. The car manufacturers do not specify the total max. weight of the trailer/caravan when they quote their towing limits.

Conversely, this also means that one may never load the car right up to its GVW limit and then hitch up the caravan because then the car would be overweight by the amount of the noseweight.

 

[Lutz]

Perhaps it is easier to understand by saying that the noseweight is not considered as a weight that the car is towing but it is actually being carried by the car, just like a piece of luggage in the boot.

 

[Lutz]

No, Icemaker, he would not be towing over the limit. If the maximum towing weight is 1600kg then this refers to the axle load only. The MTPLM is, however, axle load plus noseweight, so if the noseweight is 75kg, he can legally tow a caravan with an MTPLM of 1675kg.

The MTPLM may always be higher (by the amount of the noseweight) than the maximum towing weight that the car manufacturer specifies.

Going back to your figures for the car, Icemaker. If the gross train weight of your Alhambra is 4000kg and your caravan weighs 1630kg in total then the car may weigh 2370kg before it is hitched up to the caravan. As soon as it is hitched up to the caravan it will weigh more (by the amount of the noseweight, which, I believe in the case of an Alhambra, is 85kg). The GVW of the car will then be 2370+85=2455kg and the towload 4000-2455=1545kg.

 

[Lutz]

sorry don't agree, if the police stopped you for a check in no way would they accept that you where towing within the law. if my car had a 1600 kg max tow load and i put my van on a weigh bridge and it weighed 1675 kgs they would throw the book at you. to even think that the nose weight would not count does not make sense, if the van weighed 1675 kgs then the tow bar has got to pull 1675 kgs the tow bar can not ignore 75 kgs just becouse it is pushing down on it the weight is still present and would act as a force on the bar when you accelerated or braked. when i have been weighed in the past the ministry have allways weighed the car and van together then the van seperately, they never consider the nose weight.

Of course the noseweight counts, but it counts towards the total weight of the car not towards the towing weight.

 

[Steve L]

While I can understand Lutz's theory I do have to go with Icemakers practicallity.

You see the average wooden top is going to look at four things.

1/ put the car over the weigh bridge and check the gross train weight.

2/ Do the same with the caravan and check it's actual weight.

3/ Do the same with the car and it's passengers plus luggage.

4/ Look at your VIN plate to see if 2+3 =1.

Going into science on the nose weight distribution would not compute in their eyes.

Also yes you can tow a van with a higher max permissable weight than the car is permitted to tow so long as the actual weight weighed is within the cars tow capacity. For example, I tow a caravan with a max permissable weight of 1365 Kgs behind my Laguna which has a tow capacity of 1340Kgs. By loading the van 40kgs below the max weight I am within the cars capability and the vans max weight, which then satisfies PC plod.

I had to become very knowledgable of towing law when I had a VW Lt 35 curtain side truck 3500Kgs max weight 5500Kgs Gross train when I decided to put a trailer behind it.

You see, to tow with that combo I did need a tachograph in the cab but because the trailer weighed less than 1000Kgs unladen, I did not require an operators license.

Did the coppers know that, did they hell!! Eventually I was forced to have to contact Cumberland house in Brum (vehicle licensing authority) and get a letter stating the law to carry in the truck at all times. I mean, I was getting stopped three times a week for gods sake.

Then of coarse I had to put up with a miffed sarky copper everytime the letter was displayed.

So in the end I changed to a Diahatsu fourtrak and an Ifor williams with no tachograph, which was illegal as I was using it as a goods vehicle (hire and reward). But guess what, not even a passing glance from the boys in blue. Also with no sign writing everyone stopped trying to nick my godds (Brass turned parts).

Steve L

 

[Lutz]

Looks as though the police quite often don't know how to measure weight properly. Weighing the caravan on its own (to find out whether it is within the MTPLM) is fair enough, as is measuring the gross train weight of the whole outfit but to establish the correct GVW of the car, it MUST be hitched up to the caravan (but with the wheels of the caravan obviously off the weighbridge).

 

[Stephen_5122599]

Looks as though the police quite often don't know how to measure weight properly. Weighing the caravan on its own (to find out whether it is within the MTPLM) is fair enough, as is measuring the gross train weight of the whole outfit but to establish the correct GVW of the car, it MUST be hitched up to the caravan (but with the wheels of the caravan obviously off the weighbridge).

Hi Lutz,

I'm back from France, and I'm not joining in on this thread. Needless to say I am not surprised at the level of misunderstanding about weights and towing. Sadly the subject isn't fully understood by quite a few of the boys in blue who may give inacurate information when advice is sought.

regards

Steve

 

[chris_5068897]

Lutz, I understand your argument, and it was certainly true of French police that they checked the vans axles loads(both of them) at a 'Peage' roadside check a couple of years back, with the outfit hitched.

I have always taken the view that in *practical* terms you do have to consider the noseweight twice:

1st as part of the load on the cars rear suspension ie. as part of the cars payload so as to comply with the car manufacturer specs and

2nd as part of the caravan weight, since dynamically, the car is expected to control the entire caravan weight, not just the major part over the axle.

Of the car handbooks I've had, the manufacturer has always refered to the 'maximum braked trailer weight', never the 'maximum axle weight'

 

[Lutz]

Quite right, Chris.

Unfortunately, it's not only the police that don't always appear to be correctly informed but also the writers of car handbooks are using misleading terms. The term 'maximum braked trailer weight' suggests that the total weight of the trailer is implied whereas the regulations very clearly refer to the axle weights only when towing limits are specified.

The confusion arises because for the purpose of the regulations, the noseweight is not considered as part of the braked trailer weight but as part of the braked weight of the towing vehicle.

 

[JamesFrance]

Because I'm getting old, I need to exchange my license for a French one.

Anything other than a category B, i.e. a B + E license, would only be issued for a 2 year period and require regular medicals.

Although the caravan I have on order was rated with a MTPLM of 950 kilos, it seems that the 2007 version has been increased to 1000.

The plate on my car only shows the gross weight, the axle weights and the gross train weight.

According to the handbook the ex works weight for my engine and a basic spec. is 990 kilos.

So the question is: can I safely assume that the foglights, cruise control, air con. etc. fitted to my car will take it over 1000 kilos and allow me to drive with a B only license?