MTPLM and nose weight

[Lutz]

Surfer, please make sure of your facts before making a statement that is not only misleading but downright incorrect. The maximum towload that is specified by the car manufacturer is the axle load of the trailer, not its MTPLM. As Colin and others have correctly understood, the noseweight is treated as part of the GVW of the car. However, the sum of noseweight plus axle load is the gross weight of the trailer (caravan).
Using Colin's example, I don't see how I could be exceeding the MTPLM. The MTPLM is 1600kg and I would not be exceeding that figure. Assuming both car and caravan allow 100kg noseweight, I wouldn't be exceeding that either, nor a towload limit of 1500kg, specified by the car manufacturer.

 

[Dustydog]

Colin
I'm having a blonde dog day here. Does this mean the manufacturers plate on the side of the caravan is showing an incorrect MTPLM.

No, the manufacturer's plate is always correct. What you need to appreciate is that MTPLM is not the same as the maximum towload that the car may tow.
In the example that Colin has mentioned above, a car with a maximum towload of 1500kg can legally tow a caravan with an MTPLM of 1600kg so long as the noseweight is 100kg. Colin has understood this correctly.

Thanks Lutz
Tail wags, I've finally understood the point

 

[ProfAlGoogle]

How on earth can we make such an easy calculation sound so complex! for those who do not understand lets make it simple, forget the towing vehicle, identify the trailers weight plate, now on reading we will see the empty weight of the trailer expressed as it`s MIRO mass in running order also known as the trailers unladen weight, then we ill then see another figure given as the MTPLM,maximum technical loaded mass, also known as the trailers maximum loaded weight (never exceed this figure) so in simple terms if the caravan has an unladen weight of 1300kg and a maximum loaded weight of 1600kg we have a load allowance of 300kg, so lets take our payload (load allowance) (300kg) and divide it by 3 we then put our 3 100kg boxes in to the trailer, or if you like 6 50kg boxes or 12 25kg boxes in our trailer, we then have 1300kg being the empty weight + our 300kg payload that = 1600kg how simple is that? then when plod puts us on the weigh bridge to establish our MTPLM we will see the all important figure of 1600kg appear, all happy

so OP weigh all your kit and if your bikes included fall below your maximum user payload you are okay, then adjust nose weight as dictated by towing vehicle ot trailer.

 

[Lutz]

Nothing wrong with what you've written, Cookieones. Things only got complicated when the OP raised the question of whether he could increase the payload by the amount of the noseweight. The short answer to that is 'no'.
Just make sure that when you take the caravan to the weighbridge that it is not hitched up to the car and that the jockey wheel is on the weighbridge, too.

 

[colin-yorkshire1]

How on earth can we make such an easy calculation sound so complex! for those who do not understand lets make it simple, forget the towing vehicle, identify the trailers weight plate, now on reading we will see the empty weight of the trailer expressed as it`s MIRO mass in running order also known as the trailers unladen weight, then we ill then see another figure given as the MTPLM,maximum technical loaded mass, also known as the trailers maximum loaded weight (never exceed this figure) so in simple terms if the caravan has an unladen weight of 1300kg and a maximum loaded weight of 1600kg we have a load allowance of 300kg, so lets take our payload (load allowance) (300kg) and divide it by 3 we then put our 3 100kg boxes in to the trailer, or if you like 6 50kg boxes or 12 25kg boxes in our trailer, we then have 1300kg being the empty weight + our 300kg payload that = 1600kg how simple is that? then when plod puts us on the weigh bridge to establish our MTPLM we will see the all important figure of 1600kg appear, all happy

so OP weigh all your kit and if your bikes included fall below your maximum user payload you are okay, then adjust nose weight as dictated by towing vehicle ot trailer.

How can a simple calculation seem so complex easy really "BECAUSE IT IS" in essence what you decribe is correct as I have allready stated, providing the gross vehicle weight is not exeeded. and there is room in the boot or roof box for some of the items out of the van.

Surfer is still confusing MTPLM with tow load something I for one are quite accutely aware of from my own experience and deflating pockets.WHY well it goes like this :- When we sold the motor home and decided to go back to a tourer I bought a rover 400 2.0 TDI from a guy at work as a tow car low mileage and with full service history it had a bar allready fitted as he used to tow a small sailing dinghy with it, the power and torque figures were good as was the gross train weight it seemed perfect for the job, so it was off to find a suitable van to tow with it something lightweight and small enough to fit in the garage I had built for the motor home we eventually came across the bailey 380/2 which was new but had been used as a demonstrator at a MIRO of 820kg and a MTPLM of 1021kg gave us 199kg of user pay load with a good price and dealer extras we bought it,
however on the way home noticed how poor the van towed empty and did some research to find out why, that is when I found out the MAXIMUM TOW LOAD for the car was 1000kg with a noseweight of 50kg, becase of the tow bar design (body pull type) HORROR THE VAN WAS 21 kg TOO HEAVY FOR THE CAR, confirmed by the towsure web site, even though the gross train weight was in limits and the engine had more than enough power to do the job, I had no alternative but to sell the best car I ever owned and buy one with a higher TOW LOAD and got the mondeo 1.6 with a tow load of 1300kg a truly underpowered basic motorcar.
It was after towing with the mondeo that I found the vans problem "TYRES" but came across an article on a van website that stated
quote"
while the MTPLM of a van is set at its maximum weight the TOW LOAD can be reduced by calculating the NOSEWEIGHT as part of the CARS LOAD and not the VANS ,the MTPLM remain constant but the AXEL LOAD is reduced by the sum of the NOSEWEIGHT and therefore the TOW LOAD will be less than the MTPLM
un quote"

Bu**er if I had read this before selling the Rover I would have understood that the van was NOT too heavy for the car in fact with 50kg noseweight was 29kg under it's maximum tow weight and at 971kg tow load would have been perfectly legal. it was a expensive mistake to make due to ignorance but was a lesson well learned.

colin

 

[mullsy1]

Have to say Colin is spot on.Its always important to know the tow limit and kerbweight .As long as the tow limit is higher than the kerbweight its seems more straight forward.If as in the op when the van is loaded to the mptlm increasing the noseweight wont give you more payload but will decrease the load being towed

 

[Lutz]

While it is important to know the tow limit I think you've got the other half of your statement wrong. If the tow limit is lower, not higher, as you say, than the kerbweight and this limit is used to the full, the outfit will tend to be more stable. Apart from a potential stability issue, kerbweight has nothing to do with the subject in question.

 

[Royston]

Well thank you all for your replies to my query,I understand up to a point, The [point being noseweights.I understand the logic of tranfer weight , Ie from car to van due to varing adjustable nose weights by the shifting of internal weights within the van.
The point that still has me puzzled is, I have read within this forum the amount of people purchasing there new vans and discovering that they have a very high nose weight, with nothing inside the outside front locker.To bring the nose weight down to the average car max towball weight of 75kg, they are putting all heavy objects behind the axle,to comply
My point is, Caravan standing on its own ground the noseweight is in excess of 100 kg , when attatched to the car due to the tranfer weight it is now 75kg, the MTPLM remains the same .Would this be classed as illegal tow according to the law.
Royston

 

[mullsy1]

Im thinking of my mondeo.I can tow the kerbweight but not the tow limit but as you say when the tow limit is lower than the kerbweight then percentage wise your laughing

 

[Lutz]

Im thinking of my mondeo.I can tow the kerbweight but not the tow limit but as you say when the tow limit is lower than the kerbweight then percentage wise your laughing

Unless you passed your driving test after the 1st January 1997 and hold only a Category B licence, you can tow right up to the tow limit, even if this is greater than the kerbweight. Whether this ia advisable or not is, however, another issue.

 

[Lutz]

My point is, Caravan standing on its own ground the noseweight is in excess of 100 kg , when attatched to the car due to the tranfer weight it is now 75kg, the MTPLM remains the same .Would this be classed as illegal tow according to the law.

So long as the towball load (noseweight) exceeds neither the car's nor the caravan's limit when hitched up to the car, it would be legal. What the noseweight was before hitching and adjusting to suit (by placing heavy objects behind the axle, for example) is of no interest to the "powers-that-be".

 

[mullsy1]

Sorry mate ,youre quite right.I actually meant to say as someone new to towing I am quite happy towing well within the 1800kg tow limit

 

[ProfAlGoogle]

Sorry to say that in law it does not work like that. In my case my Volvo can tow a trailer weighing a maximum 1800kg, so lets take a trailer that can carry 2000kg then load it to my maximum 1800kg, couple to my car adjust the nose weight to my maximum 75kg, so in theory we are now looking at a towed weight of 1725, so we now add another 75kg to bring the trailer back to my maximum 1800kg.

Now Mr plod stops me because he suspects I might be overloaded, so off to the weigh bridge we go, gross train weight is fine, so the next step is to un couple the trailer to establish it`s actual weight, and their we have it : 1875 75 kg over the cars designed tow weight, you can argue until you are blue in the face that 75 kg of that is being carried by the car, but mr plod has just produced a weigh bridge ticket to confirm that the trailer grossed at 1875kg.

 

[colin-yorkshire1]

cookieones if mr plod wanted to weigh the unit he would weigh it in total or weigh each of the axels in turn not just the trailer on its own, take the case of HGV's how much does the trailer weigh fully loaded without the unit no idea because it is never weighed on it own it is allways coupled up to the tractor unit the only important weight mesurments are over each axel and these are weighed in turn the mesurements are taken front to back and side to side.
should the senario you speak of ever occur (very unlikely) I for one would be happy to appear in court plead not guilty and fight the case on the grounds that mr plod weighed the unit incorrectly and was not familier with towing laws.

 

[ProfAlGoogle]

cookieones if mr plod wanted to weigh the unit he would weigh it in total or weigh each of the axles in turn not just the trailer on its own, take the case of HGV's how much does the trailer weigh fully loaded without the unit no idea because it is never weighed on it own it is allways coupled up to the tractor unit the only important weight mesurments are over each axel and these are weighed in turn the mesurements are taken front to back and side to side.
should the senario you speak of ever occur (very unlikely) I for one would be happy to appear in court plead not guilty and fight the case on the grounds that mr plod weighed the unit incorrectly and was not familier with towing laws.

take the case of HGV's how much does the trailer weigh fully loaded without the unit no idea because it is never weighed on it own it is allways coupled up to the tractor unit.

Hi Coin, of course you can establish how much the trailer weighs on it`s own, all trailers have an unladen weight, and a gross weight not including the tractor unit. Is it going to be pulled by a 3 axle unit or a two axle unit? this is the criteria that will determine how much weight is loaded on to the trailer. The key is the trailer plate, where you will find, unladen weight, gross weight, and individual axle weight.

 

[colin-yorkshire1]

this is true but only the weights over the axels are measured on the weighbridge not just the trailer un hitched.

You do pose a interesting question though in your senario for those who believe the MTPLM is the maximum towing figure in relation to the tow load, because as you say a trailer capable of carryring 2000kg plus the weight of the empty trailer would have a MTPLM far greater than the cars 1800kg towing limit.

 

[ProfAlGoogle]

Hi again Colin, were getting a bit bogged down here, I'm quoting 2000kg as the total gross weight of the trailer, but in my case I could only load the trailer to 1800kg, as this is dictated by my cars limit of 1800kg, and also do not forget that when you quote nose weight being transfered to the car, this will not stay static due to the articulation of the combination, so we could see your 100kg alter significantly as the speed of the vehicle increases, head wind, camber of the road etc.

Weigh bridges, depends what type you are taken to, in my time on a few occasions I have been taken to public bridges that are the floating type, and I have been instructed to un couple so they can take the individual weight of the trailer.

At the end of the day each to there own, in my case the trailed weight is 1800kg and that to me is the max, not 1875.

 

[colin-yorkshire1]

fair enough if thats your experience, mine is different every day before going out of the yard the axels were weighed to find the gross weights occasionally the load had to go back to the loaders for re adjustment as the axel weights were wrong, the only time I was ever stopped out on the road was by the ministry men who also weighed each axel, thing was I had delivered half the load so only had 4 ton on board,
as for getting bogged down well the devil is in the detail, of course the dynamics alter while towing not even an idiot would assume it is constant, however any weighing would be done static so the variations under tow are meaningless,

so just before we leave it after reading through my experience with the rover do you believe it was too heavy for the car to tow??

 

[Lutz]

In my case my Volvo can tow a trailer weighing a maximum 1800kg,

This is where the misunderstanding starts. Your Volvo is NOT approved to tow a trailer weighing 1800kg. Your Volvo is approved to tow a trailed weight of 1800kg. There's a big difference.

If you are towing a trailer with an MTPLM of 1800kg you are not making full use of the car's legal capability. You could tow a fully laden trailer with an MTPLM of 1875kg. The trailed weight is 1875 - 75 = 1800kg.

 

[ProfAlGoogle]

In my case my Volvo can tow a trailer weighing a maximum 1800kg,

This is where the misunderstanding starts. Your Volvo is NOT approved to tow a trailer weighing 1800kg. Your Volvo is approved to tow a trailed weight of 1800kg. There's a big difference.

If you are towing a trailer with an MTPLM of 1800kg you are not making full use of the car's legal capability. You could tow a fully laden trailer with an MTPLM of 1875kg. The trailed weight is 1875 - 75 = 1800kg.

Hello Lutz, and finally, if you don't mind me saying that statement is contradictory, : from Volvo : Maximum permitted trailer weight for braked trailer : 1800 kg, so yes my Volvo IS approved to tow a trailer weighing 1800 kg. or 1875 using your formula.
I understand your theory in weight transfer : IE 1800 kg - 75 kg nose weight giving a trailed weight of 1725 kg all well and good, but we have three elements to consider should a serious accident ocure, using your formula
1/ Trailed weight @ 1800 kg ,/ = good
2/ static weight of trailer 1875 x = overloaded
3/ weight transfer back to trailer at speed x = overloaded
All the above elements would be taken in to consideration should a serious accident happen, I know I was personally involved in a fatality as a third party, and believe me no stone is left unturned.
Each to there own but my method keeps me well and truly the right side of the law with no complicated explaining to a judge should the worst case scenario occur, I hope we can agree to disagree.

Colin, re your Rover, yes fine @ MIRO, as from above I would only load to the cars maximum 1000 kg and not deduct the superimposed nose weight, because no matter what, part of the nose load will be transfered back to the trailer as soon as you move, and it is just to finite a situation to place your self in.

Allan.

 

[Lutz]

from Volvo : Maximum permitted trailer weight for braked trailer : 1800 kg

You don't say where you got this information from, but even if it is out of a Volvo publication, it is incorrectly formulated. Car manufacturers are committed by law to specify maximum trailed weights, not maximum trailer weight. If the latter is the case, one should point out to Volvo that they should correct the wording.

2/ static weight of trailer 1875 x = overloaded

Overloaded only if the trailer has an MTPLM of 1800kg. If it were to have an MTPLM of 1875kg, it would not be overloaded.

3/ weight transfer back to trailer at speed x = overloaded

Can you please elaborate on what you mean by this? It is unclear to me how speed comes into a pure weight issue as the law refers only to a static condition. Any changes in load due to dynamic conditions cannot be measured readily so I don't see how VOSA or the police would be able to claim that any limit, and if so, which one, had been exceeded.

 

[Surfer]

Lutz is still propagating incorrect information once again and no I am not mixed up with the MTPLM and the maximum braked towing weight. This sort of information is very misleading to a newbie and may result in a claim being declined in the event of an accident. Lutz stated that "In the example that Colin has mentioned above, a car with a maximum towload of 1500kg can legally tow a caravan with an MTPLM of 1600kg so long as the noseweight is 100kg." This is incorrect, dangerous and could invalidate your insurance.

 

[ProfAlGoogle]

from Volvo : Maximum permitted trailer weight for braked trailer : 1800 kg

You don't say where you got this information from, but even if it is out of a Volvo publication, it is incorrectly formulated. Car manufacturers are committed by law to specify maximum trailed weights, not maximum trailer weight. If the latter is the case, one should point out to Volvo that they should correct the wording.

2/ static weight of trailer 1875 x = overloaded

Overloaded only if the trailer has an MTPLM of 1800kg. If it were to have an MTPLM of 1875kg, it would not be overloaded.

3/ weight transfer back to trailer at speed x = overloaded

Can you please elaborate on what you mean by this? It is unclear to me how speed comes into a pure weight issue as the law refers only to a static condition. Any changes in load due to dynamic conditions cannot be measured readily so I don't see how VOSA or the police would be able to claim that any limit, and if so, which one, had been exceeded.

Oh dear Lutz, I think I have explained my case in full enough detail for most to understand.
"You don't say where you got this information from, but even if it is out of a Volvo publication, it is incorrectly formulated. Car manufacturers are committed by law to specify maximum trailed weights, not maximum trailer weight. If the latter is the case, one should point out to Volvo that they should correct the wording"

Really, so the Volvo car corporation have got it wrong!
From there owners handbook, and I quote :

Driving with braked trailer.

NOTE! The following are the highest trailer weights permitted by the Volvo car corporation, Remember that national traffic regulations may further limit trailer weight and speed.
The towbar may be certified for higher tow weights than the car should tow.

Maximum permitted trailer weight for braked trailer.

0-1200 kg........................................................................Recomended ball pressure 50kg
1201-1600 kg...........................................................................................................75kg
1601-1800 kg...........................................................................................................75kg

Be my guest Lutz and inform Volvo there are quoting incorrect information, and please let us all know there response.
Now you quote me in black and white where it says you can deduct the ball pressure from the towed trailer.
Again I will reiterate the scenario I previously mentioned.
A given trailer who`s gross weight is 2000 kg, with my Volvo I would only load to 1800 kg, no way would I ever deduct the ball pressure (75 kg) from the towed weight and increase it to 1875 kg, sorry to much of a grey area, with my method I know 100% that I am on the right side of the law

 

[Lutz]

The information that I have given is neither incorrect, dangerous nor can it invalidate insurance. Surfer is obviously misininformed. It would be interesting to know why he is so convinced that his information is correct. It certainly doesn't tie in with the wording of the regulations.

 

[Lutz]

Yes, obviously the person who wrote the information in the Volvo owner's handbook got it wrong. If it were correct, then one would conclude that gross train weight is the sum of the GVW of the car and the total weight of the trailer (MTPLM). However, that cannot be the case. Noseweight is part of the GVW, but it is also part of the total weight of the trailer. This would amount to counting the noseweight twice.
The Volvo text is also inconsistent. It talks about trailer weight, but in a later paragraph about towbar ratings they mention tow weights. The two are not identical. They should be aware of the difference between the weight of a trailer and the weight that is being towed.
It is amazing what a difference just one letter can make (I mean between trailer weight and trailed weight)
Of course, applying your reasoning you will always be on the right side of the law as you have left yourself a margin of safety.