MTPLM and nose weight

[ProfAlGoogle]

Lutz, it is also confirmed on the type designation plate in the engine bay @ 1800 kg, also bear in mind that the tow bar will also have it`s maximum limit set to the the manufacturers limit of 1800 kg,(as confirmed by the type plate on the tow bar) so you would be breaking the law by imposing a weight of 1875 upon it.
Regards Allan.

 

[Lutz]

I'm afraid the details on the type designation plate do not confirm your assumption. On the contrary, they contradict it. According to Regulation 95/48/EC the vehicle manufacturer must state the "towable mass" on the plate and this, according to Annex II Paragraph 2.6. of the same regulation is defined as:
‘Towable mass' means the mass of the trailer towed excluding the vertical load on the coupling point of the towing vehicle.
The same applies to the towbar. The figure shown there is also the 'towable mass' and not the total weight of the trailer.

 

[ProfAlGoogle]

Oh dear Lutz, Volvo have got it well and truly wrong! I know what information I will be following, and it will not be the one from an on line forum

Regards Allan.

 

[colin-yorkshire1]

hi all.
all I can say is I agree with Lutz, after a great deal of research that I did after the rover fiasco reading all the relevent legistlation and carefully weighing (on a weighbridge) the combination I now tow with I am 100% sure of the law and what it means to my outfit.
no matter how long this thread continues some will never be persuaded that MTPLM is not the same as the tow load and it is the axel load that matters.
I will now bow out of the conversation and leave it to others to continue if they wish.
colin

 

[Lutz]

It is the information in the handbook that they have got wrong. Not what is shown on the plate.
By the way, not all manufacturers show 'towable mass' on the plate. It is also acceptable to quote gross train weight and gross vehicle weight. But, by deducting one from the other, one also arrives at the limit for 'towable mass'.

 

[Surfer]

According to Lutz, car manufactuers have got it wrong and Lutz is correct And may pigs fly!

 

[Lutz]

Please stick to the facts and stop making unsubstantiated assertions.
Nowhere did I ever claim that car manufacturers (in the plural) have got it wrong. All I said was that Volvo have got in wrong in this one specific instance. This may have been a simple oversight or a misunderstanding between the technical staff, who I am sure were fully aware of the requirements laid down in Regulation 95/48/EC, and whoever wrote the handbook, possibly a journalist without technical background, unable to appreciate the difference between trailer weight and trailed weight. There is no reason to suppose that other handbooks or other manufacturers have made the same mistake.
You have yet to name the source that has provided you with contradictory information, so that this can be subjected to some serious objective scrutiny.

 

[Philspadders]

looks as though kia, peugot and bmw have got it wrong as well. I have just checked the manuals for all 3 vehicles and they clearly state
" maximum braked trailER " weight and not trailED weight.

I think what cookie does is to ensure he is never overloaded is to not deduct the vertical load on the towbar from his MTPLM. This way he will always be well within the rules. It makes sense to me..

 

[ProfAlGoogle]

Please stick to the facts and stop making unsubstantiated assertions.
Nowhere did I ever claim that car manufacturers (in the plural) have got it wrong. All I said was that Volvo have got in wrong in this one specific instance. This may have been a simple oversight or a misunderstanding between the technical staff, who I am sure were fully aware of the requirements laid down in Regulation 95/48/EC, and whoever wrote the handbook, possibly a journalist without technical background, unable to appreciate the difference between trailer weight and trailed weight. There is no reason to suppose that other handbooks or other manufacturers have made the same mistake.
You have yet to name the source that has provided you with contradictory information, so that this can be subjected to some serious objective scrutiny.

"I wouldn't put as much blind faith in owner's manuals as you, Cookieones. I've seen some pretty misleading information published in quite a few. I get the impression that some of the writers have more journalistic experience than technical knowledge."

That was taken from an earlier post of yours this year when reference was quoted from the Baileys owners Manuel from 2010, so we now have misleading information from the the Volvo Corporation, some one else quoted the caravan clubs website, and according to you Lutz that was also wrong....................................................................

To sum up :

Maximum permitted trailer weight for braked trailer.

0-1200 kg........................................................................Recomended ball pressure 50kg
1201-1600 kg...........................................................................................................75kg
1601-1800 kg...........................................................................................................75kg

Be my guest Lutz and inform Volvo there are quoting incorrect information, and please let us all know there response.
Now you quote me in black and white where it says you can deduct the ball pressure from the towed trailer.
Again I will reiterate the scenario I previously mentioned.
A given trailer who`s gross weight is 2000 kg, with my Volvo I would only load to 1800 kg, no way would I ever deduct the ball pressure (75 kg) from the towed weight and increase it to 1875 kg, sorry to much of a grey area, with my method I know 100% that I am on the right side of the law.

Regards Allan.

 

[Damian]

Quote " with my method I know 100% that I am on the right side of the law."

And with that statement I think it draws a suitable end to what is becoming a rather contentious topic as far as some users are concerned.

 

[Lutz]

Perhaps on a final note I have written to Volvo expressing my concern over what they have written in their handbook and now await their reply. I will report back as soon as I receive an answer.

 

[Philspadders]

dont forget to write too kia, bmw and peugot at the same time.

Is it really worth it getting wound up over this,, its really not worth the paper, the envolope and the stamp.

 

[Lutz]

I think we all have a right to expect information in owners' handbooks not to be misleading, especially on a subject with legal implications. I deliberately use the word 'misleading' and not 'incorrect' in order to give Volvo a chance to explain they really mean. What Kia, BMW or Peugeot write on this issue I don't know because I don't have access to their publications, but if they, or others, have done the same as Volvo I have no reservations in contacting them as well. But perhaps we ought to wait what Volvo have to say in their defence, first.
It was easy enough for me to verify Cookieones statements as Volvo have copies of their owners' manuals available to download from the internet.

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

Hi Lutz. Did you address your correspondance to Volvo Cars UK or Volvo Cars Sweden. If it was to the UK wing did it go 'For the attention of' Mr Lloyd Marchant' or did you send it direct to him ?. I had a situation with Volvo Cars UK a few yrs ago (Spring 2007), to label it as "A Right Royal Run-around" would be a polite way of putting it. My problem was also linked to HPI/Towsafe and their data base,it had FIVE different weights attributed to my 1997 Volvo V70 T5 CD Auto. NON were correct and the lowest was given as 1360kgs even the highest figure was 1549kgs. This was still 89kgs lighter than the weight eventually proved to be;based upon a VOSA Dynamic Axle Weighbridge.These are accurate to 0.5%,claimed as the most accurate in the world. These bridges are used in the UK for Law Enforcement.
Just for the record,I have a correspondence from Towsafe to the effect that they agree that the date base needs amending,but without the expressed agreement/permission of Volvo Cars they cannot amend the information held.
To the best of my knowledge it still remains "as was".
Erroneous figure are also published on other data bases and include Parker's.

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

Hi Philspadders and to anyone following this post. It is not a matter of getting wound over this. It is a matter of several issues all rolled into one. It is, "A Duty of Care" to ensure that the PUBLISHED FACTS are fact and not fictitious/erroneous/misleading. A matter of Principles also comes into play here. These people want us to invest in their products both New & Pre -Owned,Pre-Owned will often lead to the acquisition of a new one at a later date; but they would appear not to be forthcoming with correctness of detail/essential information.

 

[JonnyG]

dont forget to write too kia, bmw and peugot at the same time.

Is it really worth it getting wound up over this,, its really not worth the paper, the envolope and the stamp.

I have yet to see in many many years of using this forum, Lutz be anything other than a helpful and extremely knowledgeable gentleman. And having taken in most of what has been written I too believe he is correct in what he says.
Wouldn't it be nice if Volvo have indeed got it technically and therefore the legality of the issue WRONG. Certainly worth the paper, and imagine this issue came to light on a topic on the Practical caravan forum.Again certainly worth the paper to ask BMW Kia and Peugeot for the matter to clarify there statements if they are leading to mis informing people of the towing laws.

 

[ProfJohnL]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with cookiness's approach to deciding how load his caravan, as he states it will keep him well inside the limits estblished by the regulations. It is a matter of personal preference on which limits to apply provided the method does not break the law.

For many of us the issue is not necesarily of great concern, but it becomes more important the closer you load to the avilable limits of your outfit.

His approach is perfectly reasonable, but it is based on an erroneous process calculation, and in practice anyone using that method is setting a slightly lower loading limit than may otherwise be possible.

Hand books for appliances(and cars and caravans)should be writen by technical writers. They should carry out the necessary checks for accuracy, consistency and for complaince with all relevant regulations. In some areas of industry (i.e. Gas Appliances) the content of the of any litriture supplied with the appliance is subject to CE approvals and it used to be assesssed by notified bodies for compliance. Some of the resulting issues may seen petty but without thier full approval the product will not recive it s CE type aproval mark a statutory requirement for sale in the EU.

I recall one particular incident, when a draft set of appliance documentation had been submitted to the notified body for approval. It came back as approved. The draft was then passed to purchasing to arrange the full print run, but a marketing manager had picked up the approved draft, and disagreed with some of the text arrangments. He made adjustments and passed it for the printer. When the printed material came in, they were checked by the technical team, and we spotted some small but none-the-less important errors.

What this marketing manager failed to understand was that some text arrangements are defined in technical standards and specifically the gas catagories for each country. The manager changed I3+. and I3B/P to I3+ and I3B/P - a small difference but enough to have the notified body threatrening to withdraw the CE approval. needless to say the manager was suitibly admonished, but became a wiser and more carefull person in such matters.
I wonder if something similar may have happened with these vehicle handbooks and the trailer/trailed/towed wording.

 

[John_374564913]

For all the simple folk out there (LIKE ME)

I think the answer is if you uncouple the caravan from the tow vehicle and put it on a weigh bridge with the jockey wheel down
then the weight registered should not exceed the the total permissable MTPLM
Then raise the jockey wheel and place a brush handle into the hitch at the correct height going down to a set of bathroom scales and the weight should not exceed the maximum permissable nose weight of the towing vehicle.
FULL STOP
Correct me if I am wrong in this simple explanation as I said (I AM A SIMPLE MAN AND LIKE THINGS TO REMAIN SIMPLE)

 

[Lutz]

Nothing wrong with what you've written, John, but you've left out the big question that has become the subject of so much contention throughout this thread. What are you allowed to tow legally? Does the maximum towload as specified by the car manufacturer refer to the total weight of the caravan, as some people seem to think, or is it the axle load in accordance with the regulations?

 

[John_374564913]

Regardlees of the fact that your car can tow 2 tons or 3 tons even for4 if you dream the maxim allowed tow weight is the caravan MTPLN ie Axle load

Full stop

forget kerbweights and forget the 85% rule
if your car can tow 2 tons and your MTPLN is 1,900 and 1,900 is what it weighs on the weigh bridge you are legal
John

 

[John_374564913]

I forgot to mention

This is subject to you having the legal drivers license that allows you to tow the following

the maximum allowable caravan axle weight combined with the total weight of the towing vehicle if it is above 3,500 or equal to that amount then you need a catogory E license

 

[John_374564913]

I will go as far as to say if somebody who does not have an E license bought a RANGE ROVER and a small caravan of lets say 1400KG he would be illegal

Range rover gross weight (3,100 kg)
Caravan gross weight (1,400kg)
Total (3,500kg) Illegal without an E License

I hope all above three mails have clarified the point

 

[JonnyG]

I forgot to mention

This is subject to you having the legal drivers license that allows you to tow the following

the maximum allowable caravan axle weight combined with the total weight of the towing vehicle if it is above 3,500 or equal to that amount then you need a catogory E license

I dont have an E license!, i have A B BE C C1 C1E D1 D1E and then in small writting fklnp, but no E, and as far as i am aware i have no limitation?

 

[Lutz]

Regardlees of the fact that your car can tow 2 tons or 3 tons even for4 if you dream the maxim allowed tow weight is the caravan MTPLN ie Axle load

I presume you mean the MTPLM. But MTPLM is not the same as the axle load and that's what it's all about.

I dont have an E license!, i have A B BE C C1 C1E D1 D1E and then in small writting fklnp, but no E, and as far as i am aware i have no limitation?

But you do have an BE, a C1E and a D1E licence, so you've got a Category E licence.

 

[JonnyG]

cheers Lutz, so "Plus E" is what was actually meant and not just "E category" Its all about details