MTPLM and nose weight

[Lutz]

I will go as far as to say if somebody who does not have an E license bought a RANGE ROVER and a small caravan of lets say 1400KG he would be illegal

Range rover gross weight (3,100 kg)
Caravan gross weight (1,400kg)
Total (3,500kg) Illegal without an E License
I hope all above three mails have clarified the point

But the total is not 3500kg. You cannot add the gross weight of the Range Rover to the gross weight of the caravan to arrive at a sum of 3500kg because the noseweight is included in both the gross weight of the Range Rover and in the gross weight of the caravan, so you are counting the noseweight twice.

 

[John_374564913]

Johhny G

The reason I said E License was because at the age of 16 I lived in France for 10 years and they call a towing License an E license with medical when I changed my license to an english one it became the same as yours
John

 

[JonnyG]

3100 plus 1400 does not equal 3500, it equals 4500. But i will assume it was meant to add up to 3500kg, in which case it is not illegal as it is clearly stated that you can tow upto 3500kg, but cannot exceed it so 3500kg is fine. if both vehicles are on the towbridge together

 

[Lutz]

Regardless of whether it is 3500kg or 4500kg, but you can't add the gross weight of the car and the gross weight of the caravan to calculate the gross train weight.

 

[JonnyG]

Lutz I believe the reference was more to do with licence limitations rather than train weight.
I have to admit all that other stuff got a little too technical for me although the tow ball weight stuff did hit home or at least gave me something to think about .

 

[Lutz]

Even the law regarding driving licences doesn't seem to appreciate that both the gross weight of the towing vehicle and the gross weight of the caravan include the noseweight and that one cannot therefore add the two together.

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

For all the simple folk out there (LIKE ME)

I think the answer is if you uncouple the caravan from the tow vehicle and put it on a weigh bridge with the jockey wheel down
then the weight registered should not exceed the the total permissable MTPLM
Then raise the jockey wheel and place a brush handle into the hitch at the correct height going down to a set of bathroom scales and the weight should not exceed the maximum permissable nose weight of the towing vehicle.
FULL STOP
Correct me if I am wrong in this simple explanation as I said (I AM A SIMPLE MAN AND LIKE THINGS TO REMAIN SIMPLE)

There are ordinary(old style bridges) weighbridge operators that will not permit this exercise to be carried out. They weigh the car and caravan one the first pass & then the car only as the second pass.
The simplest & above all else the most accurate is to take the caravan and car as a unit and have them checked at a VOSA or VOSA specification Dynamic Axle Weighbridge,this is best carried out with the car as at kerb-weight and the caravan as at MiRO.
I had my Volvo V70 T5 CD Auto and the 2001 Elddis Crusader SuperSirocco checked out. I then deducted the known weight of the towing gear and arrived at my kerb-weight of 1638kgs. The exercise is then to weigh and keep an inventory of everything that is loaded into or onto both the car and caravan,at the same time observing all of the other good/safe guides to towing. A further trip to the weighbridge as a Belt & Braces job would not be out of order and could help for last minute adjustments;two belts & two pairs of braces.
They are accurate to 0.5%. The bridge will show everything that you need to know, it will disclose the weights of both by their axle weights and will also show what the weight is on the ball with the caravan attached. After this exercise is carried out it only then remains to verify the nose weight with a nose-weight gauge before hitching up. I do mine with pads under the gauge to simulate the ball centre height when the van is on the car. My Volvo T5 & my Scorpio Ultima Estate both ride at circa 420/430mm at ball centre with the 75kgs hitch-head weight on the ball.

 

[ProfAlGoogle]

For all the simple folk out there (LIKE ME)

I think the answer is if you uncouple the caravan from the tow vehicle and put it on a weigh bridge with the jockey wheel down
then the weight registered should not exceed the the total permissable MTPLM
Then raise the jockey wheel and place a brush handle into the hitch at the correct height going down to a set of bathroom scales and the weight should not exceed the maximum permissable nose weight of the towing vehicle.
FULL STOP
Correct me if I am wrong in this simple explanation as I said (I AM A SIMPLE MAN AND LIKE THINGS TO REMAIN SIMPLE)

There are ordinary(old style bridges) weighbridge operators that will not permit this exercise to be carried out. They weigh the car and caravan one the first pass & then the car only as the second pass.
The simplest & above all else the most accurate is to take the caravan and car as a unit and have them checked at a VOSA or VOSA specification Dynamic Axle Weighbridge,this is best carried out with the car as at kerb-weight and the caravan as at MiRO.
I had my Volvo V70 T5 CD Auto and the 2001 Elddis Crusader SuperSirocco checked out. I then deducted the known weight of the towing gear and arrived at my kerb-weight of 1638kgs. The exercise is then to weigh and keep an inventory of everything that is loaded into or onto both the car and caravan,at the same time observing all of the other good/safe guides to towing. A further trip to the weighbridge as a Belt & Braces job would not be out of order and could help for last minute adjustments;two belts & two pairs of braces.
They are accurate to 0.5%. The bridge will show everything that you need to kn
There are ordinary(old style bridges) weighbridge operators that will not permit this exercise to be carried out. They weigh the car and caravan one the first pass & then the car only as the second pass.
ow, it will disclose the weights of both by their axle weights and will also show what the weight is on the ball with the caravan attached. After this exercise is carried out it only then remains to verify the nose weight with a nose-weight gauge before hitching up. I do mine with pads under the gauge to simulate the ball centre height when the van is on the car. My Volvo T5 & my Scorpio Ultima Estate both ride at circa 420/430mm at ball centre with the 75kgs hitch-head weight on the ball.

"
"There are ordinary(old style bridges) weighbridge operators that will not permit this exercise to be carried out. They weigh the car and caravan one the first pass & then the car only as the second pass."

Certainly different where I am in Derbyshire, have as many passes on the weigh bridge as you like, as far as the operator is concerned the more the better.............................They charge for each pass!

Regards Allan.

 

[colin-yorkshire1]

[There are ordinary(old style bridges) weighbridge operators that will not permit this exercise to be carried out. They weigh the car and caravan one the first pass & then the car only as the second pass.

Ok ok ok I said this before and I am compelled to repeat it just once more, "WHERE" is the tow load figure in the example quoted above there isn't one.
to weigh the unit as a whole gives a figure that is comparable to the "gross train weight" the car only figure gives a comparable weight for the "gross vehicle weight" deducting "B" from "A" gives a figure for the trailer weight. RIGHT??
NO "WRONG" because "1" the nose weight has not been measured. and "2" the weight for "B" is minus the noseweight and therefore under its true figure by the ammount of the noseweight and "3" the weight of the trailer in regards to its MTPLM in unknown as the it was never measured at all.

when I had my unit weighed I did the following:- loaded the van and car as if ready to go away everything in the van wife and dog in the car, nose weight correct and a tank full of fuel.
took it to the weighbridge and weighed the whole unit figure came in @ 2210kg
then pulled the car wheels off the scales plate leaving just the van axel on the plate with the van still attached to the car weight figure came in @ 941kg.
then I unhitched the van and weighed it seperatly that came in @ 1014kg.
paid the £20 fee and obtained a certificate.

what the figures showed me was,
total weight of unit ie 2210kg is 40kg under the gross train weight of vehicle according to the vin plate @ 2250kg ..
tow load of trailer @ 941kg. the tow load for car according handbook 1160 kg well within the specifications.
trailer weight uncoupled 1014kg. 17kg under the MTPLM of 1021kg.
and with 914kg "the tow load" deducted from the total vehicle weight of 2210kg leaves me 1296kg for the gross vehicle weight (inc noseweight) well under the vin plate weight of 1650kg.
Therefore allthough a couple of measurments were close to the limit and the noseweight calculation of 1014kg for van, minus 914kg of tow load appears to show the nose weight @100kg when in fact it was set at 70kg. (I now set the noseweight at 50kg just to be sure) the unit as a whole is 100% legal and the reason I would have no fear of mr plod and the ministry men.

however it does illustrate the difference between MTPLM and the TOWLOAD.
colin

 

[ProfJohnL]

Oh Boy,

This thread rumbles on.

With so many different ways of describing measurements and limits I am not surprised at the degree of misunderstanding demonstrated in this and similar threads.

What it shows very clearly is that the towing regulations relating to weights, forces, load and masses are rather involved, and if readers only give the subject a casual browse, they are likely to come away with an incorrect view of the subject.

I will stress again, the intricacies of the subject take on a much more significant importance when an outfit or any element of the outfit approaches one of the many legal limits such as weight, mass or loads.

The confusion is further fostered by manufactures, commentators (professional or casual) when their wording in handbooks deviates from the regulatory specifications, and especially when the subtle but important differences between similar aspects are mixed up, ignored or not believed.

Even though the regulations make the subject complex, in my view there is a logic to it, and with a little effort you can work through the processes.

 

[ProfAlGoogle]

Colin, you are going over ground that has been previously covered, the method you describe for weighing your outfit is 100% spot on, the confusion now lies in the wording "towload" and "maximum braked trailer weight", there is no reference that I am aware of where it is refereed to as "towload" to quote Volvo hand book and also other manufacturers that refer to "maximum braked trailer weight" where in the case of my Volvo they quote both MBTW, and ball pressure, so are we to assume that when they have reached there calculation of 1800kg MBTW they have taken in to consideration the 75kg ball pressure? As you are well aware All criteria has to be met with the weight of any vehicle, sure you can be well in on maximum weight as in the case of an HGV, but fall foul on just one axle weight will render you liable to a fine.

As far as I am concerned in the case of my vehicle both the Vin plate and the owners handbook state a maximum weight of 1800kg, and that refers to a static trailer weight before coupled to the car, as previously stated I would interpret there maximum as taking the ball pressure in to consideration, I would not under any circumstances deduct the ball pressure and increase the trailer weight to 1875kg, in my opinion that would be over the manufacturers stated maximum of 1800kg, and the wrong side of the law.

Bellow taken from the department of transport :

Towing cars and light vehicles: frequently asked questions
Towing capacity/weight.
1. How can I find out the "towing" capacity of my car?
A car that has EC Whole Vehicle Type Approval (ECWVTA) will have a Vehicle Identification Number plate (VIN plate) bearing the vehicle manufacturer's name, chassis number and an approval number including the letter "e" in a small rectangle. This plate is usually located under the car's bonnet, but it can sometimes be located in other positions, for example near the driver's door.
The plate will look something like this:
VIN No (This is sometimes called the chassis number and it is unique to that specific vehicle)
XXXX KG (The maximum vehicle weight, e.g. the total weight, it does not include any trailer weight)
XXXX KG (The maximum train weight, vehicle plus trailer)

1. XXXX KG (maximum load front axle)
2. XXXX KG (maximum load rear axle)

So if for example you have a car with a maximum weight of 2180 kg and a train weight of 3980 kg the maximum "towing" capacity will be 3980 kg minus 2180 kg which gives a "towing" capacity of 1800kg (NO MENTION OF + BALL PRESSURE)
This information may also be found in the vehicle handbook, or from a vehicle specification sheet supplied by the manufacturer.

Not refereed to as towload, this is where Lutz is going to try and clarify the wording with Volvo to establish if they have made an error in there wording.

And finally as Damian has said this is now becoming a contentious topic,so no further input from me, it`s keeping me up far to late at night........................................lol

Kind regards to all Allan.

 

[Lutz]

Without waiting for Volvo's reply I think I now understand their wording. 'Maximum braked trailer weight' means the maximum weight that the brakes on the trailer act on and these brakes act on the axle. The brakes do not act on that part of the gross trailer weight that is carried by the car, i.e. the noseweight (the car's brakes have to take care of that). Hence, 'maximum braked trailer weight' is basically the same as the axle load.
In fact, by calling it 'maximum braked trailer weight' rather than axle load they have even covered themselves for a possible, although unlikely case where a twin axle caravan has brakes only on one pair of wheels. In that case, the 'maximum braked trailer weight' would not be the total axle load on both axles, but only the axle load on the axle fitted with a brake.
Let's see if Volvo will confirm my train of thought. If so, there is nothing wrong with the text in their handbooks. It just requires a careful thinking what they mean. It would help if they had added a footnote explaining their terminology as one could otherwise be easily confused.

As far as I am concerned in the case of my vehicle both the Vin plate and the owners handbook state a maximum weight of 1800kg, and that refers to a static trailer weight before coupled to the car.

The above would confirm that the data that car manufacturers put out do NOT refer to the total weight of the trailer, as you continue to assume. Besides, if you add 1800kg to the GVW of the towcar you would get an incorrect figure for the gross train weight.

 

[ProfAlGoogle]

Without waiting for Volvo's reply I think I now understand their wording. 'Maximum braked trailer weight' means the maximum weight that the brakes on the trailer act on and these brakes act on the axle. The brakes do not act on that part of the gross trailer weight that is carried by the car, i.e. the noseweight (the car's brakes have to take care of that). Hence, 'maximum braked trailer weight' is basically the same as the axle load.
In fact, by calling it 'maximum braked trailer weight' rather than axle load they have even covered themselves for a possible, although unlikely case where a twin axle caravan has brakes only on one pair of wheels. In that case, the 'maximum braked trailer weight' would not be the total axle load on both axles, but only the axle load on the axle fitted with a brake.
Let's see if Volvo will confirm my train of thought. If so, there is nothing wrong with the text in their handbooks. It just requires a careful thinking what they mean. It would help if they had added a footnote explaining their terminology as one could otherwise be easily confused.

As far as I am concerned in the case of my vehicle both the Vin plate and the owners handbook state a maximum weight of 1800kg, and that refers to a static trailer weight before coupled to the car.

The above would confirm that the data that car manufacturers put out do NOT refer to the total weight of the trailer, as you continue to assume. Besides, if you add 1800kg to the GVW of the towcar you would get an incorrect figure for the gross train weight.

But it does refer to the TOTAL WEIGHT of the trailer, as in your words I continue to assume. Right if I add the maximum braked trailer weight to the gvw of the car I will NOT get an incorrect gross train weight as you suggest, as follows from the vin plate from my Volvo located under the bonet gvw = 2160 gtw = 3960 subtract the lower figure from the higher figure gives Volvo MAXIMUM braked trailer weight of = 1800kg as also confirmed in there owners handbook.
Or 1800kg + gvw 2160 = gtw of 3960kg

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

For all the simple folk out there (LIKE ME)

I think the answer is if you uncouple the caravan from the tow vehicle and put it on a weigh bridge with the jockey wheel down
then the weight registered should not exceed the the total permissable MTPLM
Then raise the jockey wheel and place a brush handle into the hitch at the correct height going down to a set of bathroom scales and the weight should not exceed the maximum permissable nose weight of the towing vehicle.
FULL STOP
Correct me if I am wrong in this simple explanation as I said (I AM A SIMPLE MAN AND LIKE THINGS TO REMAIN SIMPLE)

There are ordinary(old style bridges) weighbridge operators that will not permit this exercise to be carried out. They weigh the car and caravan one the first pass & then the car only as the second pass.
The simplest & above all else the most accurate is to take the caravan and car as a unit and have them checked at a VOSA or VOSA specification Dynamic Axle Weighbridge,this is best carried out with the car as at kerb-weight and the caravan as at MiRO.
I had my Volvo V70 T5 CD Auto and the 2001 Elddis Crusader SuperSirocco checked out. I then deducted the known weight of the towing gear and arrived at my kerb-weight of 1638kgs. The exercise is then to weigh and keep an inventory of everything that is loaded into or onto both the car and caravan,at the same time observing all of the other good/safe guides to towing. A further trip to the weighbridge as a Belt & Braces job would not be out of order and could help for last minute adjustments;two belts & two pairs of braces.
They are accurate to 0.5%. The bridge will show everything that you need to kn
There are ordinary(old style bridges) weighbridge operators that will not permit this exercise to be carried out. They weigh the car and caravan one the first pass & then the car only as the second pass.
ow, it will disclose the weights of both by their axle weights and will also show what the weight is on the ball with the caravan attached. After this exercise is carried out it only then remains to verify the nose weight with a nose-weight gauge before hitching up. I do mine with pads under the gauge to simulate the ball centre height when the van is on the car. My Volvo T5 & my Scorpio Ultima Estate both ride at circa 420/430mm at ball centre with the 75kgs hitch-head weight on the ball.

"
"There are ordinary(old style bridges) weighbridge operators that will not permit this exercise to be carried out. They weigh the car and caravan one the first pass & then the car only as the second pass."

Certainly different where I am in Derbyshire, have as many passes on the weigh bridge as you like, as far as the operator is concerned the more the better.............................They charge for each pass!

Regards Allan.

Allan. I was not talking about restricted passes with the outfit or the car on its own for that matter. I was talking about detaching the caravan and evaluating the caravan on its own. They certainly will/would not allow the faffing about with brush handles and exercises other than the straight forward weighbridge procedure.

 

[Lutz]

But it does refer to the TOTAL WEIGHT of the trailer, as in your words I continue to assume. Right if I add the maximum braked trailer weight to the gvw of the car I will NOT get an incorrect gross train weight as you suggest, as follows from the vin plate from my Volvo located under the bonet gvw = 2160 gtw = 3960 subtract the lower figure from the higher figure gives Volvo MAXIMUM braked trailer weight of = 1800kg as also confirmed in there owners handbook.
Or 1800kg + gvw 2160 = gtw of 3960kg

You have forgotten than the 1800kg of the trailer is the sum of the axle load and the noseweight (or the load supported by the jockey wheel if the caravan is standing on its own). As the gross train weight is the total sum of the front and rear axle loads of the car and the axle load of the caravan, you've got to take the noseweight out of the 1800kg or else it doesn't add up.
Again, as I have tried to explain, the trailer's brakes don't act on 1800kg, but 1800kg minus the noseweight because the car's brakes have to take care of that.
In other words, 1800kg is NOT the braked trailer weight if its gross weight is 1800kg.

 

[colin-yorkshire1]

Colin, you are going over ground that has been previously covered, the method you describe for weighing your outfit is 100% spot on, the confusion now lies in the wording "towload" and "maximum braked trailer weight", there is no reference that I am aware of where it is refereed to as "towload" to quote Volvo hand book and also other manufacturers that refer to "maximum braked trailer weight"

hi, cookieones, Thanks for that I am sorry it appeared to go over old ground BUT I believe it is important for the readers of this thread to understand the dilema faced by caravanners who have near to the knuckle weight limits you know ? the ones like myself that tow their vans with ordinary cars because the ammout of towing done annually does not warrant or justify the purchase of a dedicated tow car that is more expensive to run the other 50weeks of the year that the van is not attached.

Had this thread/disscussion been done 4 years ago when I went back to a tourer it would have saved me a small fortune in the purchase of different tow cars in order to be 100% sure of the legalities of the outfit on the road. I would have been a far happier man and a good deal better off had I understood the terminology and requirements of the legistlation regarding tow weights.

comparison web sites made the understanding harder quoting that the van WAS 21kg too heavy for the car to tow and illegal because the MTPLM was higher than the cars max trailer load this was in fact NOT the case, if only I person understands this by reading the posts in this thread and avoids making the same mistake as I did the exersize will have been worthwhile.

colin

 

[ProfAlGoogle]

But it does refer to the TOTAL WEIGHT of the trailer, as in your words I continue to assume. Right if I add the maximum braked trailer weight to the gvw of the car I will NOT get an incorrect gross train weight as you suggest, as follows from the vin plate from my Volvo located under the bonet gvw = 2160 gtw = 3960 subtract the lower figure from the higher figure gives Volvo MAXIMUM braked trailer weight of = 1800kg as also confirmed in there owners handbook.
Or 1800kg + gvw 2160 = gtw of 3960kg

You have forgotten than the 1800kg of the trailer is the sum of the axle load and the noseweight (or the load supported by the jockey wheel if the caravan is standing on its own). As the gross train weight is the total sum of the front and rear axle loads of the car and the axle load of the caravan, you've got to take the noseweight out of the 1800kg or else it doesn't add up.
Again, as I have tried to explain, the trailer's brakes don't act on 1800kg, but 1800kg minus the noseweight because the car's brakes have to take care of that.
In other words, 1800kg is NOT the braked trailer weight if its gross weight is 1800kg.

So now Volvo and all other car makers + the department of transport have got there calculations for gtw wrong! This is now getting silly in the extreme, I suggest that you inform all relevant parties of your findings Lutz, and explain your formula for gtw to them. I will make no further comment on this subject, but await the reply from Volvo that Lutz has requested.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Cookieones,

The Govt web site is not wrong. As per your own quote of it, it refers only to the “towing capacity” of the car, not the MTPLM of the trailer. In fact the page does not even mention MTPLM or gross trailer weight.

Towing capacity and MTPLM are two separate criteria and are not the same!

The towed element is not the MTPLM but only the weight supported by the trailers wheels. The difference is the nose load, which is carried by the car and is not considered as part of the towed load or the “trailer”.

 

[ProfAlGoogle]

Colin, you are going over ground that has been previously covered, the method you describe for weighing your outfit is 100% spot on, the confusion now lies in the wording "towload" and "maximum braked trailer weight", there is no reference that I am aware of where it is refereed to as "towload" to quote Volvo hand book and also other manufacturers that refer to "maximum braked trailer weight" where in the case of my Volvo they quote both MBTW, and ball pressure, so are we to assume that when they have reached there calculation of 1800kg MBTW they have taken in to consideration the 75kg ball pressure? As you are well aware All criteria has to be met with the weight of any vehicle, sure you can be well in on maximum weight as in the case of an HGV, but fall foul on just one axle weight will render you liable to a fine.

As far as I am concerned in the case of my vehicle both the Vin plate and the owners handbook state a maximum weight of 1800kg, and that refers to a static trailer weight before coupled to the car, as previously stated I would interpret there maximum as taking the ball pressure in to consideration, I would not under any circumstances deduct the ball pressure and increase the trailer weight to 1875kg, in my opinion that would be over the manufacturers stated maximum of 1800kg, and the wrong side of the law.

Bellow taken from the department of transport :

Towing cars and light vehicles: frequently asked questions

Towing capacity/weight.
1. How can I find out the "towing" capacity of my car?
A car that has EC Whole Vehicle Type Approval (ECWVTA) will have a Vehicle Identification Number plate (VIN plate) bearing the vehicle manufacturer's name, chassis number and an approval number including the letter "e" in a small rectangle. This plate is usually located under the car's bonnet, but it can sometimes be located in other positions, for example near the driver's door.
The plate will look something like this:
VIN No (This is sometimes called the chassis number and it is unique to that specific vehicle)
XXXX KG (The maximum vehicle weight, e.g. the total weight, it does not include any trailer weight)
XXXX KG (The maximum train weight, vehicle plus trailer)

1. XXXX KG (maximum load front axle)
2. XXXX KG (maximum load rear axle)

So if for example you have a car with a maximum weight of 2180 kg and a train weight of 3980 kg the maximum "towing" capacity will be 3980 kg minus 2180 kg which gives a "towing" capacity of 1800kg (NO MENTION OF + BALL PRESSURE)
This information may also be found in the vehicle handbook, or from a vehicle specification sheet supplied by the manufacturer.

Not refereed to as towload, this is where Lutz is going to try and clarify the wording with Volvo to establish if they have made an error in there wording.

And finally as Damian has said this is now becoming a contentious topic,so no further input from me, it`s keeping me up far to late at night........................................lol

Kind regards to all Allan.

 

[JohnGriffiths]

I don't think Lutz is suggesting the manufacturers have got their Gross Train Weight calculations wrong. Just that the noseweight part of the weight is carried within the car's load limit, not on the caravan axle. The Gross Train Weight is still the same overall. This seems such a simple concept I cannot imagine why people are getting confused by it.
Imagine the following admittedly ludicrous example. A small trailer weighing 100kg carrying sandbags balanced to give zero noseweight. In this case the car is pulling 100kg and carrying zero. Simple!
Now imagine the bags moved forward so noseweight is 75kg and the car is pulling 25kg. This may be confusing to some about where the mass lies but the fact is the car is only pulling 25 kg of trailer weight.
So imagine you could actually lift the trailer up vertically on the towball to give 100kg noseweight. Are you still imagining the car is pulling a trailer of 100 kg? Of course it isn't, all of the weight is now part of the car loading limits. Any calculation of towed weight must subtract that carried by the car, and the amount you load into the car must be reduced if necesssary to allow for that noseweight.

 

[JohnGriffiths]

Duplicated

 

[Lutz]

So now Volvo and all other car makers + the department of transport have got there calculations for gtw wrong! This is now getting silly in the extreme, I suggest that you inform all relevant parties of your findings Lutz, and explain your formula for gtw to them. I will make no further comment on this subject, but await the reply from Volvo that Lutz has requested.

Nobody has got their calculations wrong. It stands to reason that gross train weight is the total load on all wheels of car and caravan and that simply isn't the sum of GVW and MTPLM.
As I have tried to point out, Volvo have not made an error in their handbook, they have just not explained their terminology very clearly for all to understand readily.
By choosing an extreme example, John Griffiths has tried to make the issue a bit clearer.

 

[ProfAlGoogle]

So now Volvo and all other car makers + the department of transport have got there calculations for gtw wrong! This is now getting silly in the extreme, I suggest that you inform all relevant parties of your findings Lutz, and explain your formula for gtw to them. I will make no further comment on this subject, but await the reply from Volvo that Lutz has requested.

Nobody has got their calculations wrong. It stands to reason that gross train weight is the total load on all wheels of car and caravan and that simply isn't the sum of GVW and MTPLM.
As I have tried to point out, Volvo have not made an error in their handbook, they have just not explained their terminology very clearly for all to understand readily.
By choosing an extreme example, John Griffiths has tried to make the issue a bit clearer.

Two days ago Lutz you wrote to Volvo to tell them there handbook was wrong, and now you are saying that they have not made an error in there handbook. So why have you written a letter?

For the last time, The gross Train weight for my Volvo is 3960kg that is car + trailer as stipulated in there handbook and on there vin plate and arrived at using the formula that is quoted from the department of transport, so with all four wheels of the car on the weighbridge + the caravan wheels ( as many as you like ) the gross weight must not exceed 3960. Remove the car from the weighbridge, and the gross weight of the caravan must not exceed 1800kg, put the car on the weighbrige without caravan and the gross weight of the car must not exceed 2160kg.
2160 (car) + 1800 (caravan) = 3960 that is the maximum allowed train weight as shown on the vehicle vin plate!

As previously stated and you agreed with, my method ensures I am 100% on the right side of the law, and I also advised that it would be best if we both agreed to disagree, I understand your reasoning but on a personal preference I would not choose to use them, each to there own hey Lutz

So as Damian has suggested lets call a close to a topic that has been well and truly discussed.

 

[Lutz]

Two days ago Lutz you wrote to Volvo to tell them there handbook was wrong, and now you are saying that they have not made an error in there handbook. So why have you written a letter?

For the last time, The gross Train weight for my Volvo is 3960kg that is car + trailer as stipulated in there handbook and on there vin plate and arrived at using the formula that is quoted from the department of transport, so with all four wheels of the car on the weighbridge + the caravan wheels ( as many as you like ) the gross weight must not exceed 3960. Remove the car from the weighbridge, and the gross weight of the caravan must not exceed 1800kg, put the car on the weighbrige without caravan and the gross weight of the car must not exceed 2160kg.
2160 (car) + 1800 (caravan) = 3960 that is the maximum allowed train weight as shown on the vehicle vin plate!

As previously stated and you agreed with, my method ensures I am 100% on the right side of the law, and I also advised that it would be best if we both agreed to disagree, I understand your reasoning but on a personal preference I would not choose to use them, each to there own hey Lutz

So as Damian has suggested lets call a close to a topic that has been well and truly discussed.

I still maintain that the way Volvo have phrased the text in the handbook can lead to misunderstanding. It got me confused at first, too, hence the reason for writing.

You say you take the car plus caravan on a weighbridge and measure 3960kg. Fair enough. Then you drive the car off the weightbridge, but leaving it hitched up to the caravan. Obviously, you are then measuring only the axle load of the caravan. Alternatively, if you unhitch the caravan and leave only the caravan on the weighbridge, the car will be lighter by the amount of the noseweight that was originally acting on the towbar before the caravan was unhitched. The car on its own will then no longer weigh what it did on the weighbridge. It will be lighter than its maximum GVW of 2160kg. Conversely, if the car already weighs 2160kg and you then attach the caravan, the car will be overloaded by the amount of the noseweight.
Either way works so long as you deduct the noseweight once:
(GVW - noseweight) + MTPLM = Gross Train Weight
or
GVW + axle load of caravan (i.e. MTPLM - noseweight) = Gross Train Weight

 

[Royston]

Wow this topic has certanly covered a lot of ground exposing weights that I never thought of with relating to the simple art of caravan towing.
Like others who have commentated on this subject I have always weighed all items that are placed within the van,keeping within the max towing limits, and and to the noseball weight adhering to my car.
I am still puzzeld with the law with regards to noseweight , I know that some of the newer Baileys have noseweights in excess of 100 kg.People driving a car with a towball weight of 75kg as per the cars manual, by placing heavy objects behind the axle to counter balance and reduce the nose weight to suit the car, surely if the van is designed to tow with a nose weight of 100kg plus, then towing with a noseweight of 75kg could cause the van to become unstable, would this also make the tow illegal , with regards to Insurance..