hello everyone im new to caravanning and just want to ask some advice before i set out on my first trip i past my driving test after 1997 and i own a 2000 reg Mitsubishi shogan 2.8 td my parents have just give me a 1990 swift challenger 390/2 se for my first caravan but would i be legal to two this with my car and driving licence any advice would be great
new to caravaning and just want to say hello
- Thread starter ade1256
- Start date
Mel
Moderator
Hi ade. Welcome to caravanning and the forum. Someone who is good on van and car weights will be along soon and let you know how the maths stack up.
mel
mel
hi Ade, welcome to the forum,
in reply I think it would be very close and you would have to get the outfit weighed just to make sure,
a quick google gives the shogun weight as 2086 kg empty with a max vehicle weight of 2720kg
the swift has a MTPLM of 950kg with a MIRO of 805kg so.
1. 2086 + 805 = 2891 kg and is legal
2. 2086 + 950 = 3036 kg and is also legal
3. but 2720 + 805 = 3525kg is border line and
4. 2720 + 950 = 3670kg is not
you could tow this outfit on your licence as the max weight is 3500kg but it would be a fine juggling act between the actual weight of the tug and the final loaded weight of the van. remember the tow load is the weight of the van minus the noseweight as this is carried by the towing vehicle,
providing the shogun was not at max rear axle weight before the van was put on, 3. could be under the total weight
weight as the nose load max is I believe 100kg.
in reply I think it would be very close and you would have to get the outfit weighed just to make sure,
a quick google gives the shogun weight as 2086 kg empty with a max vehicle weight of 2720kg
the swift has a MTPLM of 950kg with a MIRO of 805kg so.
1. 2086 + 805 = 2891 kg and is legal
2. 2086 + 950 = 3036 kg and is also legal
3. but 2720 + 805 = 3525kg is border line and
4. 2720 + 950 = 3670kg is not
you could tow this outfit on your licence as the max weight is 3500kg but it would be a fine juggling act between the actual weight of the tug and the final loaded weight of the van. remember the tow load is the weight of the van minus the noseweight as this is carried by the towing vehicle,
providing the shogun was not at max rear axle weight before the van was put on, 3. could be under the total weight
weight as the nose load max is I believe 100kg.
colin-yorkshire said:
Hello Ade & Colin.
I'm sorry but Colin's answer is giving false hope. The Cat B licence is very clear it states the combined MAM must not exceed 3500Kg. This is a limit and has no tolerance Now the MAM is Maximum Authorised Mass or the heaviest each element is allowed to be.
If the tug has a MAM (GVW) of 2720 and the caravan has a MAM (MTPLM) of 950 that is a added gross weight of 3670Kg, But that counts the nose weigh of the caravan twice so assuming the caravan has a maximum nose wight of 100Kg the combined MAM would be 3670 -100 = 3570Kg which still exceeds the Cat be limit.
A cat B driver cannot legally tow this outfit.
Parksy
Moderator
Hello Ade, welcome to the forum.
I think that you'd be illegal, but a smaller car would tow the caravan easily and save on fuel.
As a Pajero 2.8 owner towing a twin axle caravan I know all about fuel costs
I think that you'd be illegal, but a smaller car would tow the caravan easily and save on fuel.
As a Pajero 2.8 owner towing a twin axle caravan I know all about fuel costs
Hi Are and welcome to the forum,
As you can see, you will get 1st class advice from experienced caravanners.
As has been pointed out, the law is very clear about towing weights these days and you could find, if you use your outfit as described, you would possibly be in breach of your insurance.
But welcome to the Wonderful World of Caravaning.
Sir Brian of Stevenage. B)
As you can see, you will get 1st class advice from experienced caravanners.
As has been pointed out, the law is very clear about towing weights these days and you could find, if you use your outfit as described, you would possibly be in breach of your insurance.
But welcome to the Wonderful World of Caravaning.
Sir Brian of Stevenage. B)
ProfJohnL said:
Now that is strange!! I always assumed this rule to mean actual weights not theoretical ones !!!! for instance that would mean you could not tow a horse box empty with a LD , because even though the weights were less than 3500kg the potential for the horse box to carry two horses would put the outfit overweight, even though it is in fact a empty trailer.
the wording of the catagories is a little obscure do you not think, far from being clear. I pulled this from the offical site. and ommitted the non relevent bits.
Category B
You can drive vehicles up to 3,500kg Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM) with up to 8 passenger seats (with a trailer up to 750kg).
You can also tow heavier trailers if the total weight of vehicle and trailer isn’t more than 3,500kg.
Category B+E
You can drive a category B vehicle with a trailer when they have a combined weight over 3,500kg.
now where does it distinguish between actual weights and theroretical ones!!!
Hello Colin,
In the quote you give there is one tell-tale clues that suggests its is far from current. The use of the word "weight" rather than the the current preference for "Mass"
I would agree your wording suggests an alternative interpretation, but as you don't specify the source of your information I can only point to the fact it is importantly at variance to the Gov't website here
https://www.gov.uk/old-driving-licence-categories
I shall quote for Licences issued between January 1997 and 14 October 2012
"Cat B
Vehicles up to 3,500kg Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM) and up to 8 passenger seats with trailer up to 750kg; trailers over 750kg if combined weight of vehicle and trailer isn’t over 3,500kg and the fully-loaded trailer doesn’t weigh more than the unladen vehicle"
Now don't forget this description is time sensitive, and it is nor retrospective, so drivers prior to 1997 would still use their previous category entitlements which may be worded differently.
But a new driver today could not legally drive LD with an empty double horse box as its combined MAM would exceed the 3500Kg limit.
In the quote you give there is one tell-tale clues that suggests its is far from current. The use of the word "weight" rather than the the current preference for "Mass"
I would agree your wording suggests an alternative interpretation, but as you don't specify the source of your information I can only point to the fact it is importantly at variance to the Gov't website here
https://www.gov.uk/old-driving-licence-categories
I shall quote for Licences issued between January 1997 and 14 October 2012
"Cat B
Vehicles up to 3,500kg Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM) and up to 8 passenger seats with trailer up to 750kg; trailers over 750kg if combined weight of vehicle and trailer isn’t over 3,500kg and the fully-loaded trailer doesn’t weigh more than the unladen vehicle"
Now don't forget this description is time sensitive, and it is nor retrospective, so drivers prior to 1997 would still use their previous category entitlements which may be worded differently.
But a new driver today could not legally drive LD with an empty double horse box as its combined MAM would exceed the 3500Kg limit.
hi John,ProfJohnL said:
I do find these anomalies rather facinating don't you, I lifted the text in my post from the same site as you but from a different section. you will note in your quote I outlined one passage it still refers to weight not MAM of the trailer,
now I understand the interpretation of the rule, but where I differ from you is how the mass can be verified.
the way I read it is a category B holder can drive a vehicle up to 3500kg MAM and tow a trailer of up to 750kg.
now wether this is meant to say a 750kg trailer is in addition to the 3500kg MAM of the vehicle or is inclusive is not clear.
I assume this would be inclusive, same as carrying up to 8 passengers because the gross vehicle weight of the vehicle cannot be exeeded, therefore towing a trailer would have to be within this limit,
now the next passage refers to trailers over 750kg in this it only refers to the total weight of vehicle and trailer not being over 3500kg and NOT the combined MAM of vehicle and trailer, in my view this is just what it says providing the actual weight of the combination is less than 3500kg and the trailer does not weigh more than the U/L weight of the towing vehicle it is legal.
in my view the use of theoretical MAM weights does not apply as it does not specifically refer to it. if one was to use this senario the OP could not drive his vehicle anyway as the GTW would be over the limit wether a trailer was attached or not as the MAM would have be based on the gross train weight.
I should add that I have always found it strange that it is only within the caravan fraternity that weight issues seem to be an obsession, other sports and pastimes that involve the use of trailers do not seem to have any difficulty distinguishing between what a trailer is and weighs with respect to what constitutes the load and what can be carried.
Hello Colin,
Something has changed. AT least a year ago on the Govt site it very clearly stated the "combined MAM" The point was debate (incuding you http://www.practicalcaravan.com/forum/towing-driving-and-safety/47770-am-i-missing-something-here-or-is-there-contradictory-confusing-info#371790)
The quotes were taken from the Govt website at the time and the wording definitely was Combined MAM.
Now I know legislation has changed in Oct 2012, because that was also debated, but it was still the combined MAM.
The web site has been rewritten several times and small changes have crept in. This has been states as to simplify the information, unfortunately unless the underlying legislation has also changed it would seem the Govt web site is now offering unsafe advice, A matter I am taking up with the site managers as soon as I have finished this reply.
What is unfortunate about this is, the public are told they must comply with the law, but the only accessible site with information about the legislation is this Govt one, and it seems it has not been proof read by the professionals on the subject.
The bottom part of your last post is also in my view wrong because the legislation first refers to the vehicles MAM which is the Gross Vehicle Weight NOT the Gross Train Weight. So new driver could drive the LD solo provided its (Solo) MAM is less than 3500Kg
Something has changed. AT least a year ago on the Govt site it very clearly stated the "combined MAM" The point was debate (incuding you http://www.practicalcaravan.com/forum/towing-driving-and-safety/47770-am-i-missing-something-here-or-is-there-contradictory-confusing-info#371790)
The quotes were taken from the Govt website at the time and the wording definitely was Combined MAM.
Now I know legislation has changed in Oct 2012, because that was also debated, but it was still the combined MAM.
The web site has been rewritten several times and small changes have crept in. This has been states as to simplify the information, unfortunately unless the underlying legislation has also changed it would seem the Govt web site is now offering unsafe advice, A matter I am taking up with the site managers as soon as I have finished this reply.
What is unfortunate about this is, the public are told they must comply with the law, but the only accessible site with information about the legislation is this Govt one, and it seems it has not been proof read by the professionals on the subject.
The bottom part of your last post is also in my view wrong because the legislation first refers to the vehicles MAM which is the Gross Vehicle Weight NOT the Gross Train Weight. So new driver could drive the LD solo provided its (Solo) MAM is less than 3500Kg
Further information:-
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/208099/INF30.pdf
This leaflet states that
"All weights quoted for the relevant vehicles relate to the ‘Maximum Authorised Mass’ (MAM). This is the total weight of the vehicle when ‘laden’ (loaded). Where we refer to an ‘unladen weight’, this means the weight when not carrying a load."
And then it goes on to describe weights. I agree this is now very confusing, and it needs some clarification from Government.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/208099/INF30.pdf
This leaflet states that
"All weights quoted for the relevant vehicles relate to the ‘Maximum Authorised Mass’ (MAM). This is the total weight of the vehicle when ‘laden’ (loaded). Where we refer to an ‘unladen weight’, this means the weight when not carrying a load."
And then it goes on to describe weights. I agree this is now very confusing, and it needs some clarification from Government.
Mel
Moderator
Hi ade, are you any clearer? thought not! I think the short answer to "are you legal"? Is probably not. However if you have a mate or a parent with a pre '97 licence that can tow the whole fully laden outfit to a weigh bridge then you will get your answer. Under 3500 kg and you are Ok
Good luck
Mel
Good luck
Mel
hello John,
good luck in getting a reply from the government any time before they change the rules again :woohoo:
the reply about the GTW was meant to be tounge in cheek regading theoretical weights, and related to the OP's Shogun and not a LD. the fact of the matter is regarding the OP's question reading the statute as is, he would be ok to tow this very light van providing the total actual on the road weight was less than 3500kg this is my interpretation of the rules and would stand by that even in court if required.
good luck in getting a reply from the government any time before they change the rules again :woohoo:
the reply about the GTW was meant to be tounge in cheek regading theoretical weights, and related to the OP's Shogun and not a LD. the fact of the matter is regarding the OP's question reading the statute as is, he would be ok to tow this very light van providing the total actual on the road weight was less than 3500kg this is my interpretation of the rules and would stand by that even in court if required.
If you want to tow a trailer weighing more than 750 kilograms when the combined weight of the towing vehicle and trailer is more than 3,500 kilograms you will have to pass a further test in category B+E.
As I understand it, these are maximum permissable weights, not actual weights. So a vehicle of say 2300kg, with a max permissable of 2800kgs, plus a caravan of 1350 kg, mtp of 1550 would be a distinct no. This is how I read it.
We used to refer to this as train weight.
As I understand it, these are maximum permissable weights, not actual weights. So a vehicle of say 2300kg, with a max permissable of 2800kgs, plus a caravan of 1350 kg, mtp of 1550 would be a distinct no. This is how I read it.
We used to refer to this as train weight.
hi Thingy,Thingy said:
1. is correct.
2. this is the bit under discussion.
3. also correct as the combined weight of 2300kg for car + 1350kg for van = 3650kg without any reference to the vans MTPLM if greater than 1350kg.
4. that is still what it is called but refers to the absolute maximum a combination can weigh for a given tow car.
Interestingly and where the anomaly appears is that a vehicle that has a GVW of 3500kg a trailer of 750kg can still be towed legally by a catagory B licence holder, so the maximum weight is increased to 4250kg, one could also argue that the actual weight of this combination could be 4350kg as a (assumed noseweight) of 100kg is carried by the car and not towed.
this therefore makes the senario of a vehicle of say 2500kg GVW towing a trailer of 1100kg being illegal seem ridiculous, "and could be the reason the wording John spoke of being changed" I also believe the use of MTPLM being used as a theoretical actual weight of the van is misleading .
because it is the tow load of the trailer that important not the MTPLM. this seems unique to caravans
while the MTPLM is the maximum a van can weigh in total, the actual weight is the MIRO (mass in running order) plus the user payload, (to make up the MTPLM) if the van is say empty (on MIRO) why would you assume it is running at max weight.
A trailer weighs what it is empty plus the load it carries whatever that is!! you would not assume a car transporter weighs 3 tonne empty because it could carry a ford transit when loaded,
this was proven to me last spring when a boating friend ask me to help taking his boat to the marina for the summer,
on the way back he was stopped by the police, "thats a big trailer for a ford focus he said" and on looking at the A frame he said "thought so it,s a 2500kg trailer thats far to big for that little car its a £60 penilty and 3 points on your licence for that offence" to which my friend went round to the back of the trailer grabbed hold and lifted it straight off all four wheels LOOK he said "I'M SUPERMAN" I can lift 2 and half tonnes, do you want to weigh it!!. at which point the officer ticked him off for being cheeky but in the end sent us on our way getting back on the road my friend said " it's a good job he stopped us on the way back the boat weighs 1400kg on its own. :lol:
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