Nose Weights

[arossco]

How do car manufacturers determine what the nose weight limit of their cars should be ?

My 2017 Toyota Verso has a nose weight limit of 55 kgs, which seems quite low as it is not a small car.
Could this be because it is a 7 seater, and the calculations have to take into account that all the seats may be occupied, thus putting more load on the rear axle ?

I have just bought a Milenco nose weight gauge, and discovered that we made our first trip ( we recently bought a 2013 Lunar Cosmos 352 ) at 70 kgs nose weight.
There were just two of us in the car, with the usual gear in the back, which would be much lighter than carrying more passengers.

Towing felt absolutely fine, on both motorway and A roads, so should I be concerned ?

 

[otherclive]

How do car manufacturers determine what the nose weight limit of their cars should be ?

My 2017 Toyota Verso has a nose weight limit of 55 kgs, which seems quite low as it is not a small car.
Could this be because it is a 7 seater, and the calculations have to take into account that all the seats may be occupied, thus putting more load on the rear axle ?

I have just bought a Milenco nose weight gauge, and discovered that we made our first trip ( we recently bought a 2013 Lunar Cosmos 352 ) at 70 kgs nose weight.
There were just two of us in the car, with the usual gear in the back, which would be much lighter than carrying more passengers.

Towing felt absolutely fine, on both motorway and A roads, so should I be concerned ?

You should not exceed the car makers specified noseweight. The Lunar Cosmos may have a Lunar specified load for its hitch. For many caravans that load is 100kg, but yours may be 70kg. Or is the 70 kg what your caravan measured when loaded?
Either way the lowest wins, so you should not exceed Toyotas limit specified for the car which is 55kg.

Even with 55kg when you load up the car the situation improves as a heavier car is good news for towing. The axle loads will have been calculated taking into account loading and towing.

 

[arossco]

You should not exceed the car makers specified noseweight. The Lunar Cosmos may have a Lunar specified load for its hitch. For many caravans that load is 100kg, but yours may be 70kg. Or is the 70 kg what your caravan measured when loaded?
Either way the lowest wins, so you should not exceed Toyotas limit specified for the car which is 55kg.

Even with 55kg when you load up the car the situation improves as a heavier car is good news for towing. The axle loads will have been calculated taking into account loading and towing.

The 55 kg is specified in the Toyota manual. The Lunar manual specifies a minimum of 50 kg and a maximum of 100 kg. The 70 kg was measured with the Milenco gauge.

 

[otherclive]

The 55 kg is specified in the Toyota manual. The Lunar manual specifies a minimum of 50 kg and a maximum of 100 kg. The 70 kg was measured with the Milenco gauge.

You will need to readjust the caravans loading to bring its noseweight down to 55 kg.

 

[Lutz]

How do car manufacturers determine what the nose weight limit of their cars should be ?

My 2017 Toyota Verso has a nose weight limit of 55 kgs, which seems quite low as it is not a small car.
Could this be because it is a 7 seater, and the calculations have to take into account that all the seats may be occupied, thus putting more load on the rear axle ?

Noseweights are usually determined by rig tests of the underbody structure to determine its durability under load. It is possible that the third row of seats weakens the structure to a degree because the seats require a reinforcement to be deleted to allow them to be packaged in the design.

 

[ProfJohnL]

How do car manufacturers determine what the nose weight limit of their cars should be ?

My 2017 Toyota Verso has a nose weight limit of 55 kgs, which seems quite low as it is not a small car.
Could this be because it is a 7 seater, and the calculations have to take into account that all the seats may be occupied, thus putting more load on the rear axle ?

I have just bought a Milenco nose weight gauge, and discovered that we made our first trip ( we recently bought a 2013 Lunar Cosmos 352 ) at 70 kgs nose weight.
There were just two of us in the car, with the usual gear in the back, which would be much lighter than carrying more passengers.

Towing felt absolutely fine, on both motorway and A roads, so should I be concerned ?

A simple Yes.

You should be concerned, becasue you are using the vehicle beyond its stated specifications, and in the event that you did have some incident where the way you were using it was important, exceeding a manufacturers stated limit could be construed as having an unsafe vehicle.

There are two types of limits set by the vehicle manufacturer. Those values stamped such as GVW ad GTW and Axle Limits on the vehicles data plate are legally enforceable, and have no tolerance becasue they are limits. Other parts or the model specific specifications may not be a statutory value, but never-the-less they may be used as evidence in cases of unsafe operation.

 

[Buckman]

Legally I am fairly sure that the legislation refers to the weight on the rear axle and not the load on the towball. However the tow bar may only be rated at 55kgs and you should not exceed the rating on the towbar.

 

[Lutz]

The manufacturer's noseweight limit may not be legally enforceable, but it is the limit for which the manufacturer accepts product liability and exceeding it significantly may be deemed to be a dangerous loading condition and that is an offence.

 

[arossco]

What is surprising is that in order to comply with Lunar's minimum of 50 kg and Toyota's maximum of 55 kg I have very little leeway.

I will try a bit of weight redistribution next time. I've only got the spare wheel and the gas bottle in the front locker, which is a 11kg Flogas Propane bottle, so I may move the spare wheel to the car while towing.
When it's time to change the gas bottle, I'll maybe go for the 6kg !

I've also got an awning which I didn't bring this time, but next time I could carry it on the floor just behind the axle line.

Thanks for all the responses, I know from looking at previous threads on this topic that it is a difficult topic !

 

[otherclive]

What is surprising is that in order to comply with Lunar's minimum of 50 kg and Toyota's maximum of 55 kg I have very little leeway.

I will try a bit of weight redistribution next time. I've only got the spare wheel and the gas bottle in the front locker, which is a 11kg Flogas Propane bottle, so I may move the spare wheel to the car while towing.
When it's time to change the gas bottle, I'll maybe go for the 6kg !

I've also got an awning which I didn't bring this time, but next time I could carry it on the floor just behind the axle line.

Thanks for all the responses, I know from looking at previous threads on this topic that it is a difficult topic !

I’m sure that doing what you propose will help rebalance the caravan noseweight to much closer to the desired figure.

 

[ProfJohnL]

What is the MTPLM of your caravan? I ask this becasue if the Verso has a nose load limit of only 55kg, it does mean ( based on the EU's S Value protocol) the cars Towed Weight Limit has to less than 1250kg, It all just seems a bit close to the edge.

 

[Buckman]

What is surprising is that in order to comply with Lunar's minimum of 50 kg and Toyota's maximum of 55 kg I have very little leeway.

I will try a bit of weight redistribution next time. I've only got the spare wheel and the gas bottle in the front locker, which is a 11kg Flogas Propane bottle, so I may move the spare wheel to the car while towing.
When it's time to change the gas bottle, I'll maybe go for the 6kg !

I've also got an awning which I didn't bring this time, but next time I could carry it on the floor just behind the axle line.

Thanks for all the responses, I know from looking at previous threads on this topic that it is a difficult topic !

I am very surprised that a 11kg bottle fits in the front locker. The majority of people use a 6kg bottle. May be better to change that sooner than later. The 6kg refillable Safefill bottle only weighs 11..6 kg when full and gets lighter as you use gas.

 

[RogerL]

What is the MTPLM of your caravan? I ask this becasue if the Verso has a nose load limit of only 55kg, it does mean ( based on the EU's S Value protocol) the cars Towed Weight Limit has to less than 1250kg, It all just seems a bit close to the edge.

Pedantic correction - the car's noseweight limit must be 4% of the car's towing limit, or 25 kg, whichever is greater - so a 1,375 kg towing limit may be allowed.

 

[Buckman]

Pedantic correction - the car's noseweight limit must be 4% of the car's towing limit, or 25 kg, whichever is greater - so a 1,375 kg towing limit may be allowed.

Our Jeep has a towing limit of 3500kg so that equation is probably out the window. many Fords can tow well in excess of 2000kf although the gross maximum weight of the car is only 1600kg.

 

[Hutch]

The nose weight " Gripe" is massive, and opens massive discussion.

What is surprising is that in order to comply with Lunar's minimum of 50 kg and Toyota's maximum of 55 kg I have very little leeway.

I will try a bit of weight redistribution next time. I've only got the spare wheel and the gas bottle in the front locker, which is a 11kg Flogas Propane bottle, so I may move the spare wheel to the car while towing.
When it's time to change the gas bottle, I'll maybe go for the 6kg !

I've also got an awning which I didn't bring this time, but next time I could carry it on the floor just behind the axle line.

Thanks for all the responses, I know from looking at previous threads on this topic that it is a difficult topic !

Remember to empty the water heater as well, that will also save maybe 10 kg of weight.

 

[RogerL]

Our Jeep has a towing limit of 3500kg so that equation is probably out the window. many Fords can tow well in excess of 2000kf although the gross maximum weight of the car is only 1600kg.

?? I was referring to the EU requirement that noseweight limit is not less than 4% of the towing weight - nothing to do with Towing Ratio.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Pedantic correction - the car's noseweight limit must be 4% of the car's towing limit, or 25 kg, whichever is greater - so a 1,375 kg towing limit may be allowed.

Thank you, I used 50kg by mistake instead of 55kg so the towed weight limit must be no greater than 1375kg

 

[Bluetonic]

The nose weight " Gripe" is massive, and opens massive discussion.

Remember to empty the water heater as well, that will also save maybe 10 kg of weight.

It will, and the toilet flush is probably another 5 to 7 kg.
May or may not help the nose weight depending on where the tanks are located?

 

[otherclive]

I emptied the front water heater, and would carry water in the toilet flush. Fine tuning then was where I would place my 9 kg tool bag. But being nose heavy when unloaded the toolbag invariably went aft of the axle.

 

[arossco]

What is the MTPLM of your caravan? I ask this becasue if the Verso has a nose load limit of only 55kg, it does mean ( based on the EU's S Value protocol) the cars Towed Weight Limit has to less than 1250kg, It all just seems a bit close to the edge.

The MTPLM is 990 kg - and the car Gross Vehicle Mass is 2060 kg.

 

[arossco]

What is the MTPLM of your caravan? I ask this becasue if the Verso has a nose load limit of only 55kg, it does mean ( based on the EU's S Value protocol) the cars Towed Weight Limit has to less than 1250kg, It all just seems a bit close to the edge.

The MTPLM is 990 kg - and the car

I am very surprised that a 11kg bottle fits in the front locker. The majority of people use a 6kg bottle. May be better to change that sooner than later. The 6kg refillable Safefill bottle only weighs 11..6 kg when full and gets lighter as you use gas.

There's room for two - though Lunar probably expect 2 x 6 kg bottles to be used.
My thinking was that the single 11 kg bottle would be lighter than twin 6 kgs.

 

[otherclive]

The MTPLM is 990 kg - and the car


There's room for two - though Lunar probably expect 2 x 6 kg bottles to be used.
My thinking was that the single 11 kg bottle would be lighter than twin 6 kgs.
View attachment 4490

I guess you need to question whether two 6 kg are required all the time. Our van was nose heavy and most times we only carried one 6kg. So before going away I’d check the installed bottle and if I felt it wouldn’t go the distance I’d put a full one in alongside it. That way I could run the initial bottle down to zero.
If we were abroad I’d carry two as one was used outside for the bbq.

 

[Buckman]

The MTPLM is 990 kg - and the car


There's room for two - though Lunar probably expect 2 x 6 kg bottles to be used.
My thinking was that the single 11 kg bottle would be lighter than twin 6 kgs.
View attachment 4490

In summer months a 6kg bottle should last you months if using gas for hot water and fridge. In winter using gas for heating & fridge, the 6kg bottle will be depleted within 4- 5 days.

 

[Hutch]

In summer months a 6kg bottle should last you months if using EHU for hot water and fridge. In winter using gas for heating & fridge, the 6kg bottle will be depleted within 4- 5 days.

I disagree with that, I winter in Northern France OAT 10c , with the caravan on a 10 amp EHU and power in the van on Gas and electricity, cooking most days in the van evening meal and heating at 20c We would use just over a 6 kg bottle in a month, Truma Combi, blown air system.

 

[Buckman]

I disagree with that, I winter in Northern France OAT 10c , with the caravan on a 10 amp EHU and power in the van on Gas and electricity, cooking most days in the van evening meal and heating at 20c We would use just over a 6 kg bottle in a month, Truma Combi, blown air system.

You are correct. I shoudl have said gas and not "EHU". Slip of the fingers or brain.