noseweight guage

[oldagetraveller1]

Is there a truly reliable noseweight guage on the market these days?
I bought one a few years ago but it was wildly inaccurate - really dangerous.
I seem to recall some publicity about a new product virtually guaranteed to be accurate.
Does anyone have some real experience?

 

[Woodentop]

Milenco do quite good one that is not too expensive and seems accurate.

Also look at the Miriad digital gauges sold by many outlets for around £30-£40, although you do need to wind the van up a bit to get it in place and it needs to be square-on and upright else it will misread.

I've got both and they are within a Kg or so of each other.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I'm sorry but I can't allow the last post to go unchallenged.

Currently there is no retail gauge that can accurately and consistently measure the nose load a trailer imposes on the car. There are two main reasons, the first is what the OP has already found, they are inaccurate. Whilst there is one manufacturer that claims their product is calibrated, it is not calibrated because it does not come with a certificate of conformance or a record of error.

And secondly, which applies to ALL the retail products correct way to measure nose load calls for the hitch to be at the same height as when it is hitched and ready to tow, that means loaded with car and caravan loaded with passengers and luggage. This is because the nose load a trailer produces varies if you lift or lower it. As none of the retail gauges allow height adjustment to match the towed height they cannot give an accurate reading. They also change their length as the load increases by a considerable amount.

Safest way is to measure the loaded height of the hitch, and then using the caravan step and magazines to support a pair of bathroom scales so the hitch will rest at the towed height.. All this must be done on horizontal ground, as slopes with affect the reading.

Even though bathroom scales can have a significant error it is far less that the cumulative errors of retail gauges and the wrong heights, and it costs a lot less.

 

[Thingy]

There is always Thingys tried and trusted method. If I can lift the front of the caravan by hand, its OK. If I cant, there is too much Sherry for the Sheilas.

 

[Hutch]

Having been on an earlier thread on this, I am with you Thingy.
Here we go again
!!!

 

[Gagakev]

Having been on an earlier thread on this, I am with you Thingy.
Here we go again
!!!

I got muscles like Popeye so no weight a problem for me :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

So to get a more accurate reading I copied Sir sprockets idea, completely adjustable for height's, hence the tape measure.

 

[Woodentop]

I have to argue with the Prof. We are not into great accuracy here and the difference in height will account for no more than a Kg or two, so set the weight to be, say, 3-4Kg below your hitch limit and you won't go far wrong.

 

[Parksy]

A click on the search tab with the entry 'noseweight' inserted into the search box will produce hundreds of previous posts all about noseweight, how to measure it, how not to measure it, it's relative importance in terms of overall caravan safety etc etc etc.
The best method is to use either a commercially available noseweight gauge of your choice lifted on wooden blocks to the correct towing hitch height, or a bathroom scale with a length of wood unless you have access to the equipment to construct Sprocket's model.
The nit picking and arguing the point back and forth is irrelevant, all that anyone can do is to make the best effort to comply with the specified limits using the equipment that is commercially available.
I've yet to see a shred of evidence which would give details of a prosecution based on a breach of the regulations surrounding caravan noseweight.
Caravan hitch height is not set to one specific measurement:

............

The EU regulations sets the range of hitch heights for private cars to be between 350 and 420mm from the ground to the centre of the ball when fully loaded and ready to roll with passengers and luggage....

.....All EU caravans are designed for the 350 to 420 range so keeping to that range will ensure the caravan maintains its correct ground clearance at the rear.

The height variation in the range given would produce a variation in noseweight, so as stated earlier noseweight should be set below the specified limit to allow for this variation and for the variation in ride height caused by road surface undulation.

 

[ProfJohnL]

"Thingy" has (According to his post script) a large Mitsibushi Shogun which has a nose load capability of at least 140kg. With that in mind is stated method of assessing nose load by feel may be adequate, because of the large nose load margin of the vehicle. Adequate it may be but it's far from accurate.

Many caravanner's do not have the luxury tow vehicles with massive nose load capacities like the Shogun's. Many caravanners use domestic cars. You must check your own towbars specification but most fall between 50kg and 80kg, with 75kg being a modal value.

With such a restriction the uncalibrated human being is entirely the wrong way to assess nose load, and a more competent method should be used such as I have described.

I have to argue with the Prof. We are not into great accuracy here and the difference in height will account for no more than a Kg or two, so set the weight to be, say, 3-4Kg below your hitch limit and you won't go far wrong.

I'm Sorry Woodentop, but the amount of variation is dependant on how the caravan is loaded,and it might only be as small as a couple of kg, but equally it can be as much as 10kg. And the effect for twin axles is much more pronounced and sensitive.

Parksy, Yet again you raise the excuse for not attempting to be reasonably accurate because there are no reported instances of prosecutions for excess nose load. That does not preclude the need to try and comply with the nose load regulations.

For the well covered reasons I have explained on many occasions NONE of the retail gauges all the user to measure in accordance with the regulations, principally because the do not preserve the correct measurement height, and thus are not fit for purpose, yet alone for also being notoriously inconsistent and inaccurate.

The method of using a pole with bathroom scales, will only be accurate if you can match the pole length to the towing height for each measurement. This method is also hazardous as the pole is not particularly stable so for safety I prefer to recommend the use of caravan step with magazines to pack the bathroom scales for correct towing height.

Whilst there is a legal side to nose load compliance it is also a matter of safety - so why use a wholly inappropriate method when a relatively simple, cheap and more accurate process is available.

 

[Parksy]

"Thingy" has (According to his post script) a large Mitsibushi Shogun which has a nose load capability of at least 140kg. With that in mind is stated method of assessing nose load by feel may be adequate, because of the large nose load margin of the vehicle. Adequate it may be but it's far from accurate.

Many caravanner's do not have the luxury tow vehicles with massive nose load capacities like the Shogun's. Many caravanners use domestic cars. You must check your own towbars specification but most fall between 50kg and 80kg, with 75kg being a modal value.

With such a restriction the uncalibrated human being is entirely the wrong way to assess nose load, and a more competent method should be used such as I have described.

I have to argue with the Prof. We are not into great accuracy here and the difference in height will account for no more than a Kg or two, so set the weight to be, say, 3-4Kg below your hitch limit and you won't go far wrong.

I'm Sorry Woodentop, but the amount of variation is dependant on how the caravan is loaded,and it might only be as small as a couple of kg, but equally it can be as much as 10kg. And the effect for twin axles is much more pronounced and sensitive.

Parksy, Yet again you raise the excuse for not attempting to be reasonably accurate because there are no reported instances of prosecutions for excess nose load. That does not preclude the need to try and comply with the nose load regulations.

For the well covered reasons I have explained on many occasions NONE of the retail gauges all the user to measure in accordance with the regulations, principally because the do not preserve the correct measurement height, and thus are not fit for purpose, yet alone for also being notoriously inconsistent and inaccurate.

The method of using a pole with bathroom scales, will only be accurate if you can match the pole length to the towing height for each measurement. This method is also hazardous as the pole is not particularly stable so for safety I prefer to recommend the use of caravan step with magazines to pack the bathroom scales for correct towing height.

Whilst there is a legal side to nose load compliance it is also a matter of safety - so why use a wholly inappropriate method when a relatively simple, cheap and more accurate process is available.

In my opinion as far as most caravan owners are concerned Prof, a commercially available noseweight gauge used at the correct hitch height is as accurate as it gets for most of us who check our noseweight.
It's for the individual to decide for themselves which method they prefer to use, but I'm happy to be corrected if you can provide evidence of a caravan accident or mishap which was caused by an inaccurate noseweight measurement.
A customer who has bought a noseweight gauge can hardly be expected to verify it's calibration out in the real world, they won't have either the inclination or the equipment to do so for a start although the fact that they have bought a noseweight gauge would potentially prove their intent to comply with limits in the highly unlikely event of proof ever being required.
Your repeated sweeping assertions that bathroom scales are somehow more accurate than a caravan noseweight gauge, and that therefore a caravan owner who has used a noseweight gauge will inevitably load in excess are quite frankly ludicrous, please provide proof that this is indeed the case.
Any method of noseweight measurement will be inaccurate if the correct hitch height is not factored in but there's no reason why a noseweight gauge cant be used with a 'caravan step with magazines' for correct towing height.

 

[Thingy]

Absolutely Prof and as usual right on the nose (excuse the pun) with the figures. We can get away with it with the Shogun. not only that, but we always carry virtually the same equipment, stored in the same places etc etc. the awning and tins of food, beer, wine and all other heavy stuff travels in the car. So for us, within a few kg, its pretty safe to assume we are OK.

I would certainly not advocate this method to either a new user, somebody with a lightweight car, or somebody that had never even attempted to gauge their own noseweight. I have a reasonable idea within 5kg what the noseweight is, and at that we would be easily 60 kg below the Shoguns noseweight. More important for me is not to exceed that which is suitable for the caravans drawbar.

I do wonder how people cope with cars limited to 50 or 60 kg on the nose. must be very difficult to achieve without counterbalancing.

 

[WoodlandsCamper]

I do wonder how people cope with cars limited to 50 or 60 kg on the nose. must be very difficult to achieve without counterbalancing.

Seeing what some people disgorge from their front locker I don't think they have ever checked nose weight.
Also, when travelling on motorways you see tow cars very low on the back with a large expanse of wheel arch showing at the front.

 

[ProfJohnL]

In my opinion as far as most caravan owners are concerned Prof, a commercially available noseweight gauge used at the correct hitch height is as accurate as it gets for most of us who check our noseweight.

It's for the individual to decide for themselves which method they prefer to use, but I'm happy to be corrected if you can provide evidence of a caravan accident or mishap which was caused by an inaccurate noseweight measurement.

As you later point out at least purchasing and using a nose load gauge displays intent, but whether that would be enough to mitigate a prosecution is still unknown.

We both know there is virtually no corroborated evidence or proof in the public domain about causes of RTI's involving caravans. So I hope we are both reasonable people, and can accept that most of the time we rely on good sense to balance the discussion.

Whilst I have pointed out the legal issues of overloading against the nose load limit, the inaccuracies of retail gauges could also lead to not having as much nose load as needed, whilst this does not have the same legal significance as overloading, it does of course have implications for the early onset of instability and safety.

There are plenty of reports both on PCF and elsewhere that strongly suggest many of the retail compression spring gauges have wide variance in both reading and consistency. Milenco themselves point this out in their publicity and claim errors of 30kg being recorded. Whilst this may be an extreme value it certainly suggests there is poor measurement equipment being produced to measure criteria that does have legal significance.

A customer who has bought a noseweight gauge can hardly be expected to verify it's calibration out in the real world, they won't have either the inclination or the equipment to do so for a start although the fact that they have bought a noseweight gauge would potentially prove their intent to comply with limits in the highly unlikely event of proof ever being required.

I cannot see the point of purchasing a piece of measuring equipment that does not have some established accuracy, especially where it is to be used to check a criteria with legal and safety significance. Its only fair to warn readers of the equipments limitations.

Your repeated sweeping assertions that bathroom scales are somehow more accurate than a caravan noseweight gauge, and that therefore a caravan owner who has used a noseweight gauge will inevitably load in excess are quite frankly ludicrous, please provide proof that this is indeed the case.

From the reports that you have pointed to about the accuracy of bathroom scales from memory the worst case was about 10kg out, By comparison the worst for nose load gauges was 30kg out. so for starters the bathroom scale are typically 3 time better than nose load gauges.

Then in addition a compression spring nose load gauge will compress by about 150mm (6" for Bedford) at full load and proportionally for smaller loads. With a moving length depending on load coupled to the fact the actual nose load will also change with height means it is very unlikely the length of the loaded gauge will come to rest at the actual towed height.

Whereas bathroom scales tend to have less than 10mm of compression on full load, so it will be more accurate because of less movement under load. In total I would estimate the bathroom scales will about ten times as accurate as a compression nose load gauge for measuring nose load.

Any method of noseweight measurement will be inaccurate if the correct hitch height is not factored in but there's no reason why a noseweight gauge cant be used with a 'caravan step with magazines' for correct towing height.

Hmm, Its unlikely you can show me a retail nose load gauge that will stand on a caravan step and be low enough to set the correct towing height.

I don't think I need to add any more to this thread.

 

[Woodentop]

Absolutely Prof and as usual right on the nose (excuse the pun) with the figures. We can get away with it with the Shogun. not only that, but we always carry virtually the same equipment, stored in the same places etc etc. the awning and tins of food, beer, wine and all other heavy stuff travels in the car. So for us, within a few kg, its pretty safe to assume we are OK.

I would certainly not advocate this method to either a new user, somebody with a lightweight car, or somebody that had never even attempted to gauge their own noseweight. I have a reasonable idea within 5kg what the noseweight is, and at that we would be easily 60 kg below the Shoguns noseweight. More important for me is not to exceed that which is suitable for the caravans drawbar.

I do wonder how people cope with cars limited to 50 or 60 kg on the nose. must be very difficult to achieve without counterbalancing.

I would observe for Thingy that in his case the limitation would be that of the chassis, and if it is Al-Ko the noseweight limit is 100Kg.

As for Prof's response to me he made comment about how people load caravans but said nothing about the fact that whether the nose is at hitch height, slightly low or slightly high it will only make a few Kg at most difference, so set it by balancing load at a few Kg below the vehicle or chassis limit and all should be well.

Ultimately an experienced driver will know whether the balance/noseweight is about right simply by feel. How a caravan being towed handles or feels says much more about weight balance than pretty well any gauge.

 

[WoodlandsCamper]

Ultimately an experienced driver will know whether the balance/noseweight is about right simply by feel. How a caravan being towed handles or feels says much more about weight balance than pretty well any gauge.

A very dangerous assumption. You are saying just because a van doesn't feel unsafe then it must be safe.!! A van can feel safe but still be illegal in some respect.

 

[Dustydog]

As others have said this subject has been done to death causing the usual spats that probably don't help at all.
In the final analysis we are all agreed nose weight is a very important factor and needs to be measured.
I now use a Reich measuring guage designed for Twin Axles. I do factor in the drop in suspension height but that of course comes back up level with the self levelling suspension.
More so having tested against the bathroom scales the difference is negligible.
Trip after trip there tends to be very little variation in loading items so consequently ask if it is really necessary to check every journey unless new heavy items have been added.

Whilst I just love Sproket's design touring with it will erode by load margin whereas the Reich is light weight.

 

[Thingy]

I would observe for Thingy that in his case the limitation would be that of the chassis, and if it is Al-Ko the noseweight limit is 100Kg.

Correct, I normally run at around 87-90 kg.

And

Ultimately an experienced driver will know whether the balance/noseweight is about right simply by feel. How a caravan being towed handles or feels says much more about weight balance than pretty well any gauge.

I agree to a point. For my part, 30 years driving artics certainly gives me a feel for it, but thinking it feels right in perfect conditions is one thing, when caught by a strong crosswind or dropping into a snake, its too late to think "hmmm, maybe thats not right after all"

 

[Sproket]

Whilst I just love Sproket's design touring with it will erode by load margin whereas the Reich is light weight.

Didn't realise how long ago it was when i came up with the idea hmy: :lol: ( just reinstalled the photo links ) as the original one's had been lost when the forum migrated a few times over the years

 

[Keefanmaxx]

I have to ask ........ how do you measure the nose weight of your 'van ProfJohnL?

I'm interested to know. :cheer:

 

[gravesyt]

I have been looking in to buying a new nose weight gauge as i am fed up scales and wood so have narrowed it down to 2 milenco or reich the main pros for each of them is milenco is calibrated, the reich gives the correct hitch height when it calculates it figure cons reich you have to hitch the car up carefully as not to damage it and its not calibrated the milenco will be hard to get the right hitch height or impossible . gents/ladys any input to help me make my mine up between the two please

 

[Sproket]

The above photos are of the Reich TLC that i have used since june 2011
It's a bit easier to carry & store for when we are out & about

 

[gravesyt]

Thanks ma lord Sproket how accurate do you think they are they +/-

 

[Parksy]

In my opinion as far as most caravan owners are concerned Prof, a commercially available noseweight gauge used at the correct hitch height is as accurate as it gets for most of us who check our noseweight.

It's for the individual to decide for themselves which method they prefer to use, but I'm happy to be corrected if you can provide evidence of a caravan accident or mishap which was caused by an inaccurate noseweight measurement.

As you later point out at least purchasing and using a nose load gauge displays intent, but whether that would be enough to mitigate a prosecution is still unknown.

We both know there is virtually no corroborated evidence or proof in the public domain about causes of RTI's involving caravans. So I hope we are both reasonable people, and can accept that most of the time we rely on good sense to balance the discussion.

Whilst I have pointed out the legal issues of overloading against the nose load limit, the inaccuracies of retail gauges could also lead to not having as much nose load as needed, whilst this does not have the same legal significance as overloading, it does of course have implications for the early onset of instability and safety.

There are plenty of reports both on PCF and elsewhere that strongly suggest many of the retail compression spring gauges have wide variance in both reading and consistency. Milenco themselves point this out in their publicity and claim errors of 30kg being recorded. Whilst this may be an extreme value it certainly suggests there is poor measurement equipment being produced to measure criteria that does have legal significance.

A customer who has bought a noseweight gauge can hardly be expected to verify it's calibration out in the real world, they won't have either the inclination or the equipment to do so for a start although the fact that they have bought a noseweight gauge would potentially prove their intent to comply with limits in the highly unlikely event of proof ever being required.

I cannot see the point of purchasing a piece of measuring equipment that does not have some established accuracy, especially where it is to be used to check a criteria with legal and safety significance. Its only fair to warn readers of the equipments limitations.

Your repeated sweeping assertions that bathroom scales are somehow more accurate than a caravan noseweight gauge, and that therefore a caravan owner who has used a noseweight gauge will inevitably load in excess are quite frankly ludicrous, please provide proof that this is indeed the case.

From the reports that you have pointed to about the accuracy of bathroom scales from memory the worst case was about 10kg out, By comparison the worst for nose load gauges was 30kg out. so for starters the bathroom scale are typically 3 time better than nose load gauges.

Then in addition a compression spring nose load gauge will compress by about 150mm (6" for Bedford) at full load and proportionally for smaller loads. With a moving length depending on load coupled to the fact the actual nose load will also change with height means it is very unlikely the length of the loaded gauge will come to rest at the actual towed height.

Whereas bathroom scales tend to have less than 10mm of compression on full load, so it will be more accurate because of less movement under load. In total I would estimate the bathroom scales will about ten times as accurate as a compression nose load gauge for measuring nose load.

Any method of noseweight measurement will be inaccurate if the correct hitch height is not factored in but there's no reason why a noseweight gauge cant be used with a 'caravan step with magazines' for correct towing height.

Hmm, Its unlikely you can show me a retail nose load gauge that will stand on a caravan step and be low enough to set the correct towing height.

I don't think I need to add any more to this thread.

To address some of your points Prof, I repeat that if you can provide evidence of a prosecution in respect of caravan nose weight I'm happy to be corrected but no evidence has been forthcoming. In a purely hypothetical situation any legal representative worth his salt would be more than happy to defend a prosecution if he could prove that the defendant had purchased a noseweight gauge with which to measure noseweight, if the gauge proved to be inaccurate but was purchased in good faith then the responsibility for the inaccuracy would rest with the supplier. We both know that no prosecution on the grounds that you suggest is ever likely to be attempted. s
On the question of good sense, surely a caravanner who has taken the trouble to buy a noseweight gauge is displaying a modicum of good sense by realising the significance of towball and hitch weight limits for their vehicle?
Milenco pointed out the inaccuracy of some noseweight gauges not to warn potential customers not to buy their product but to advertise the accuracy of their Milenco 2691 Calibrated Nose Weight Gauge.
For those interested the advertising blurb reads that Milenco produce:
'the only Noseweight Gauge approved and calibrated to the British standard for these instruments. It offers calibrated precision,accuracy,reliability and technical superiority over other Noseweight Gauges. It has a clear large scale to ensure the precise and safe loading for this safety critical area,to ensure Caravan stability when towing. The Camping and Caravan Club conducted a study on Noseweight Gauges and found them to be inaccurate and unreliable. They then approached Milenco and asked if we could produce a Noseweight Gauge to the standard BS7691,which was written in 2004. At this time no one had produced a conforming Gauge to the standard. We conducted studies on the available Noseweight Gauges and at best found them only accurate within 12kilos but more concerning is that we found these Noseweight Gauges often became ridiculously inaccurate with use. The Milenco Precision Calibrated Noseweight Gauge has been manufactured using unique materials so that its calibration remains accurate even after 1000 uses. Other Noseweight Gauges can be up to 30 kilos out after 1000 uses. Another improvement we have made is that the scale is much clearer and goes up to 130 kilos and are accurate to within 2 kilos (as required by BS7691) Further improvements include the fact we made the Noseweight Gauge the same height as your caravan,so you do not need to block it up to use it. We know this Gauge costs a few pounds more,but you are getting real value for money and something that works correctly,exactly to the standard. We think this is far better than something that can be potentially dangerous,as you can end up with a low Noseweight,which is the trend with the un-calibrated Noseweight Gauges as the springs soften with use especially those using piano wire. This is another safety product you can trust from Milenco.'


Are bathroom scales calibrated? How many bathroom scales were tested to check their calibration to show that they are likely to be three times more accurate than every commercially available noseweight gauge, and how many noseweight gauges were tested?
Can you substantiate your assertions with any actual proof, a url which would navigate to the results of these tests would be useful.
A noseweight gauge does not necessarily have to stand on a caravan step, it's not beyond an average persons ingenuity to ensure that the point of measurement is within the specified height range using wooden blocks etc; (which many of us carry to use under the jockey wheel and corner steadies at times on uneven ground)
I take your point that you have the safety of tourers at heart Prof, and appreciate your interest and advice, but I'm beginning to wonder why you, with no discernible evidence to substantiate your claim, are so convinced that your method using random assorted domestic bathroom scales of unspecified quality or manufacture is the correct one and everybody else is making some sort of wild guess because they decided to use a different method, which to my uneducated mind is likely to be no more inaccurate when measuring a constantly shifting set of parameters?

 

[Woodentop]

Thanks ma lord Sproket how accurate do you think they are they +/-

I have a vague recollection that mine was something like +/-2 or +/-3Kg, but as I said elsewhere it does need to be upright and aligned or it can read incorrectly, sometimes wildly so.

 

[gravesyt]

Thanks Woodentop I can live 2 to 3 +/- even 5 to 10 but 30 +/- is a bit to much so I think it's going to be the reich as it give me the correct hitch height when doing it calculations . As with the milenco is a guess and 5mm could be as much as 30 +/-