Parksy
Moderator
Thingy said:
The Prof has been banging on about the same thing since the forum began but has never provided any proof which would back up his claims.
I still wonder if he makes bathroom scales for a living :lol:
The Prof has been banging on about the same thing since the forum began but has never provided any proof which would back up his claims.
I still wonder if he makes bathroom scales for a living :lol:
Parksy said:Thingy said:
The Prof has been banging on about the same thing since the forum began but has never provided any proof which would back up his claims.
I still wonder if he makes bathroom scales for a living :lol:
I hope that they are not the one's that speak :silly:
85kg bang on the nose
Whoa that's too heavy. ..
Sorry the scales need re calibrating so I'm self switching off..
Or you can have the normal mode .....
One at a time please :woohoo:
Mel
Moderator
I would never trust my bathroom scales to check the nose weight when they so blatantly overweigh me by at least a stone every time.
Mel
Mel
Mel said:I would never trust my bathroom scales to check the nose weight when they so blatantly overweigh me by at least a stone every time.
Mel
hmy: :lol: :lol: :kiss:https://youtu.be/2shSaJkGQ3I
Really? Who has the time or the inclination to read this?ProfJohnL said:
And what exactly is a category M1, M2 and N1 vehicle?
So is the coupling height in the figure at 395mm or 465mm?
This topic has gone on for some time and to be honest, as someone relatively new to the past-time I prefer simple advice and answers to questions.
I started caravanning as a progression from camping. At no time did I realise that I needed a degree in physics and an intimate knowledge of EU directives ...... and that's before I get off the drive!!
I have neither the time or the inclination to read the European Directive on the subject, I just want to make sure that I am towing legally and not exceeding the permitted limit of the tow-bar or tow-ball fitted to my car.
Just my thoughts!
Parksy
Moderator
This thread developed into the classic "one upmanship" theme. Most of it I can't see helped anyone?
Last word springs to mind -- Is this it?
Last word springs to mind -- Is this it?
Stil can't get my head around twin axle nose weight but I will wait until the Woosie fest to get answers. So no reply please
Parksy
Moderator
Gabsgrandad said:
As you know Pete, I've met and spoken face to face with various forum members over the years.
A recurring complaint that I hear when I meet forum members is that when newbies ask a simple question on this forum the replies often descend into unhelpful very pedantic technical discussions.
These debates or discussions which centre around fairly minor details are of no help to anyone, and actually put some members off using this forum.
Issues surrounding the measurement of caravan noseweight is of particular concern and one can almost hear a collective groan when the question is asked, not least from those who have taken the time and trouble to buy what they regard as one of the best commercially available noseweight gauges currently available.
When there are repeated very detailed technical statements with no evidence to support the claim that any generic domestic bathroom scale is more accurate than the latest generation of electronic gauges some of us would disagree, and will only be convinced that this is the case when we see proof.
This proof has never been provided, so although I'm fully aware that some will have become irritated by this lengthy topic, which may appear to some to consist of nothing more than one one-upmanship, please be assured that this was never my intention.
We all know that the measurement of caravan noseweight is important and to exceed it is against various 'EU Directives'.
To have too little noseweight can also have very serious consequences on caravan stability.
Every caravan owner that I've ever spoken to who bothers to check simply does the best that they can with the equipment available.
By calling some of the constantly repeated assertions into question I'm hoping that in future new caravan owners using this forum can get a simple answer to a simple question.
I acknowledge the general concern that so often gets raised about threads becoming too technical. It often arrises when a traditional procedure that no one thinks about, is challenged in the light of new understanding.
Like it or not, you cannot treat caravanning with the total light hearted approach to compliance that may have been the tradition in the past, we are continually bombarded with with ever more encroaching directives and legislation, and turning a blind eye to what might come back and bite is not a sensible approach.
We also have far more technical information about vehicles than used to be the case, and again that means you can scrutinise the figures which may show up the inadequacies of the traditional methods. We need to ensure outfits are legal and safe.
So it is perfectly in order to debate any such issues.
In the case of nose loads, I have stood my ground on the subject because contributors have continued to suggest points that do not stand up to scrutiny or worse are offering bad or dangerous practices. New caravanners need to be made aware of the issues so they can make an informed decision.
People new to caravanning are looking for simple and safe answers, sometimes you need to get technical to show how approaches differ.
Suggesting bathroom scales on the footstep with magazines to adjust height is a simple cheap, effective and comparatively safe method of measuring nose load.
Now Parksy,
You clearly have not understood my argument because you keep coming back with "Why would a hitch height vary when the caravan is standing still?" Well that is correct, but the hitch height does change if you move from the tow ball to the gauge. and if that does not settle at the towing height, then the height of the itch has changed and the variances I have been described come into play.
Regarding packing up retail spring gauges to create the correct measurement height, if the gauge is already too long then you're stuck, If it's too short, then you can shim it up, but by how much? You don't know that until the gauge is loaded with the hitch how much the gauge length will change. It becomes a lot of trial and error and frustration set shim the gauge to get to the towed height. Those issues do not apply to the use of the bathroom scales, because they barely change their height under load, So its easy to measure the hight of the hitch in the tow ball, and then est the step and scales with magazines to pack it to the same height, in the knowledge the height won't change when you rest the hitch on it. Job done.
There is always resistance to change what has become a tradition. There will be some who just bury their heads in the sand and ignore the sense or logic of an point of view. If the bathroom scales and step method had been used by everyone from day one no one would bat an eyelid to it. and no one would have spent out on relatively expensive yet ineffective spring gauges.
Like it or not, you cannot treat caravanning with the total light hearted approach to compliance that may have been the tradition in the past, we are continually bombarded with with ever more encroaching directives and legislation, and turning a blind eye to what might come back and bite is not a sensible approach.
We also have far more technical information about vehicles than used to be the case, and again that means you can scrutinise the figures which may show up the inadequacies of the traditional methods. We need to ensure outfits are legal and safe.
So it is perfectly in order to debate any such issues.
In the case of nose loads, I have stood my ground on the subject because contributors have continued to suggest points that do not stand up to scrutiny or worse are offering bad or dangerous practices. New caravanners need to be made aware of the issues so they can make an informed decision.
People new to caravanning are looking for simple and safe answers, sometimes you need to get technical to show how approaches differ.
Suggesting bathroom scales on the footstep with magazines to adjust height is a simple cheap, effective and comparatively safe method of measuring nose load.
Now Parksy,
You clearly have not understood my argument because you keep coming back with "Why would a hitch height vary when the caravan is standing still?" Well that is correct, but the hitch height does change if you move from the tow ball to the gauge. and if that does not settle at the towing height, then the height of the itch has changed and the variances I have been described come into play.
Regarding packing up retail spring gauges to create the correct measurement height, if the gauge is already too long then you're stuck, If it's too short, then you can shim it up, but by how much? You don't know that until the gauge is loaded with the hitch how much the gauge length will change. It becomes a lot of trial and error and frustration set shim the gauge to get to the towed height. Those issues do not apply to the use of the bathroom scales, because they barely change their height under load, So its easy to measure the hight of the hitch in the tow ball, and then est the step and scales with magazines to pack it to the same height, in the knowledge the height won't change when you rest the hitch on it. Job done.
There is always resistance to change what has become a tradition. There will be some who just bury their heads in the sand and ignore the sense or logic of an point of view. If the bathroom scales and step method had been used by everyone from day one no one would bat an eyelid to it. and no one would have spent out on relatively expensive yet ineffective spring gauges.
Prof, no-one here has suggested turning a blind eye. My point in an earlier post, after you had quoted a rather large portion of the EU directive which, in all honesty most of won't have heard of, or if we had would not have the time or desire to read.ProfJohnL said:
I also said that we Brits are possibly the only ones that adhere to the EU Directives while our friends in mainland Europe acknowledge them but carry on as normal.
I know my legal responsibilities relating to towing and all I want to do is make sure that I am within the law using a reasonable method to check that I am. It's that simple, and if I have to use a commercially available springy nose-weight gauge or use the step, some magazines and the un-calibrated bathroom scales to provide a half reasonable indication then I will.
I also agree with the comment by Parksy about a simple question becoming a technical discussion and have to say that I reached a point in this topic where I felt like stabbing myself in the eye with a cocktail stick because of the length of posts ..... lots of words, but nothing said!!
All I ask is a simple answer to a question. I need advice and guidance at the moment, not a degree on mechanical engineering!! :cheer: :cheer: :cheer:
As a new caravanner, in the sense of towing a new caravan of the modern ilk with suspension, ATC, stabiliser; but having been brought up with my late father towing a caravan and using bathroom scales with a block of wood to measure an arbitrary load with the caravan packed, I'll make comment.
There is nothing in this thread attributable to the modern car and it's system. I tow with the acknowledged pinnacle of automotive technology, a Mercedes S Klasse. I also towed my caravan for the first time with a Land Rover Discovery 4 with the tow control kit.
Each of those vehicles have differing 'nose weight' figures. My understanding is the 'nose weight' of the lowball on the vehicle is determined by the rear axle dynamic loading parameters, which in turn basic mechanics / physics tells us is related to load and distance from the fulcrum point i.e. the towball. Hence why different vehicles have different nose weights for the tow bar fitted. It can be reasonably determined that the load exerted in the vertical plain through the centre of the towball should not deflect the rear suspension of the vehicle beyond it's designed range. In my living memory, that understanding has been there since childhood.
Nose weight of the caravan is determined by the chassis, to which the caravan is affixed, and is limited to a known value as advised in the documentation. Again, the basic mechanical and physics principles apply. The objective is to get a balanced 'vehicle' under dynamic load conditions.
The various systems in modern cars and caravans, dependant on the level of technical complexity, will sense dynamic load changes and apply reactive correction where the system design determines it.
These dynamic loads are difficult to determine by the average punter that buys a caravan, let alone by technically qualified bods. So the average joe resorts to the internet to seek explanation, educates themselves by reading handbooks with car and caravan and undertakes what is reasonably practicable and measures the nose weight of the caravan.
I'm unsure of people deliberately setting out to cause harm when they hitch up their caravan, which surely is the legal test in event of a prosecution; but I'm certain that people do what is reasonably practicable with the knowledge and tools available to them.
I don't use the bathroom scale method, partly due to very old ones being worn out, the digital ones with the strain gauge being glass and requiring a very smooth surface to place them on; I also don't know what state of battery level is required to maintain their accuracy. Neither of these come with a certificate of calibration, nor a requirement for re-calibration at a time or load frequency as a piece of test equipment that could be challenged at law in the event of causal effect. I do use the Millenco gauge, as recommended by the selling dealer of the caravan, advice of friends and other caravan users.
When I first went to tow my caravan with a vehicle unfamiliar to me, to carry out a journey of hundreds of miles for my first towing experience with this combination; i used the Millenco gauge in accord with the instructions and carried out the nose weight measurement of the caravan, at the height of the Discovery lowball, and understanding the trailer control system and air suspension would maintain the level of the rig without undue exertion of dynamic loads on the rear axle. I got 90Kg on the gauge. The Disco allowance was 150Kg, the caravan chassis was 100Kg. After towing for 3 miles, I wasn't happy and pulled over to move a case from the car into the caravan over the axle. Re=checked caravan nose weight at 85Kg. Thereafter for the rest of the journey the towing was smooth and stable.
Roll on a few months and the Merc towbar was fitted. This having a lowball nose weight limit of 85Kg. Again used the now trusty Millenco gauge at the height of the lowball and got the 85Kg. The caravan had the same gear in it, in the same position. The car has air suspension, and countless other systems that prohibit unsafe loading. Basically it detects the lowball has been deployed and locked, that a load has been applied and the suspension sets itself to maintain level, for the headlights, speed sign camera operation and a couple of other things on the wheel sensors for cruise control, speed limit assist and suspension geometry and loading; that the electrics are connected and operate correctly and that it has 2 extra wheels in the configuration. That is technology for you. Plus the trusty tape measure and spirit level to check things out.
I have bought the caravan matched to car. Bought a recommended check gauge, that says it is calibrated until a date in the future, applied basic mechanical knowledge. I struggle to comprehend how, unless I undertake a malicious and predetermined act how I can be successfully prosecuted, and for what. The burden of proof is on the accuser and has to be beyond reasonable doubt. I think there is an uphill struggle there.
When I first joined this forum, I thought OK I'll join in. I then saw a series of threads that had considerable barrack room lawyer type content, that made me wary of posting.
Like the thread on the Mini 5 door, first response revert to law. Much better and less costly to revert to rare sense and basic communication. Tends to get faster and equitable resolution :blink:
There is nothing in this thread attributable to the modern car and it's system. I tow with the acknowledged pinnacle of automotive technology, a Mercedes S Klasse. I also towed my caravan for the first time with a Land Rover Discovery 4 with the tow control kit.
Each of those vehicles have differing 'nose weight' figures. My understanding is the 'nose weight' of the lowball on the vehicle is determined by the rear axle dynamic loading parameters, which in turn basic mechanics / physics tells us is related to load and distance from the fulcrum point i.e. the towball. Hence why different vehicles have different nose weights for the tow bar fitted. It can be reasonably determined that the load exerted in the vertical plain through the centre of the towball should not deflect the rear suspension of the vehicle beyond it's designed range. In my living memory, that understanding has been there since childhood.
Nose weight of the caravan is determined by the chassis, to which the caravan is affixed, and is limited to a known value as advised in the documentation. Again, the basic mechanical and physics principles apply. The objective is to get a balanced 'vehicle' under dynamic load conditions.
The various systems in modern cars and caravans, dependant on the level of technical complexity, will sense dynamic load changes and apply reactive correction where the system design determines it.
These dynamic loads are difficult to determine by the average punter that buys a caravan, let alone by technically qualified bods. So the average joe resorts to the internet to seek explanation, educates themselves by reading handbooks with car and caravan and undertakes what is reasonably practicable and measures the nose weight of the caravan.
I'm unsure of people deliberately setting out to cause harm when they hitch up their caravan, which surely is the legal test in event of a prosecution; but I'm certain that people do what is reasonably practicable with the knowledge and tools available to them.
I don't use the bathroom scale method, partly due to very old ones being worn out, the digital ones with the strain gauge being glass and requiring a very smooth surface to place them on; I also don't know what state of battery level is required to maintain their accuracy. Neither of these come with a certificate of calibration, nor a requirement for re-calibration at a time or load frequency as a piece of test equipment that could be challenged at law in the event of causal effect. I do use the Millenco gauge, as recommended by the selling dealer of the caravan, advice of friends and other caravan users.
When I first went to tow my caravan with a vehicle unfamiliar to me, to carry out a journey of hundreds of miles for my first towing experience with this combination; i used the Millenco gauge in accord with the instructions and carried out the nose weight measurement of the caravan, at the height of the Discovery lowball, and understanding the trailer control system and air suspension would maintain the level of the rig without undue exertion of dynamic loads on the rear axle. I got 90Kg on the gauge. The Disco allowance was 150Kg, the caravan chassis was 100Kg. After towing for 3 miles, I wasn't happy and pulled over to move a case from the car into the caravan over the axle. Re=checked caravan nose weight at 85Kg. Thereafter for the rest of the journey the towing was smooth and stable.
Roll on a few months and the Merc towbar was fitted. This having a lowball nose weight limit of 85Kg. Again used the now trusty Millenco gauge at the height of the lowball and got the 85Kg. The caravan had the same gear in it, in the same position. The car has air suspension, and countless other systems that prohibit unsafe loading. Basically it detects the lowball has been deployed and locked, that a load has been applied and the suspension sets itself to maintain level, for the headlights, speed sign camera operation and a couple of other things on the wheel sensors for cruise control, speed limit assist and suspension geometry and loading; that the electrics are connected and operate correctly and that it has 2 extra wheels in the configuration. That is technology for you. Plus the trusty tape measure and spirit level to check things out.
I have bought the caravan matched to car. Bought a recommended check gauge, that says it is calibrated until a date in the future, applied basic mechanical knowledge. I struggle to comprehend how, unless I undertake a malicious and predetermined act how I can be successfully prosecuted, and for what. The burden of proof is on the accuser and has to be beyond reasonable doubt. I think there is an uphill struggle there.
When I first joined this forum, I thought OK I'll join in. I then saw a series of threads that had considerable barrack room lawyer type content, that made me wary of posting.
Like the thread on the Mini 5 door, first response revert to law. Much better and less costly to revert to rare sense and basic communication. Tends to get faster and equitable resolution :blink:
Lets examine this from another perspective. The legal aspect is going to be enforced by whom and how??
In a large number of accidents involving caravans, the damage is catastrophic. Impossible to check the noseweight when half the caravan is missing or its been on its side shifting all its load. So the only people likely to be looking for a noseweight figure are the weightwatchers who are rather more interested in LGVs. However, were either the police or the weightwatchers attempt to get an accurate noseweight figure
WOULD THEY BE USING EITHER BATHROOM SCALES OR THE REICH?
In a large number of accidents involving caravans, the damage is catastrophic. Impossible to check the noseweight when half the caravan is missing or its been on its side shifting all its load. So the only people likely to be looking for a noseweight figure are the weightwatchers who are rather more interested in LGVs. However, were either the police or the weightwatchers attempt to get an accurate noseweight figure
WOULD THEY BE USING EITHER BATHROOM SCALES OR THE REICH?
Keefanmaxx said:
Well I beg to differ on that. Please if you can force yourself and find the number of posts where contributors have elected not to use a gauge of any sort and did it by feel! And those that use the argument that its never checked so why bother trying to do it accurately"
Keefanmaxx said:
When the simple approach of using bathroom scales on the step, was suggested it was roundly suggested that spring gauges which do not support the hitch at the towing height were were better.!!!
Well Prof
I see nothing Practical carrying a set of bathroom scales and a pile of Haymarket magazines. In this day and age of touring I don't want my Load allowance eroded any more than necessary.
Three of us have fully tested the Reich and find it accurate on both SA and TA.
The Reich weighs grams and is ideal for touring.
Can you agree on that ?
I see nothing Practical carrying a set of bathroom scales and a pile of Haymarket magazines. In this day and age of touring I don't want my Load allowance eroded any more than necessary.
Three of us have fully tested the Reich and find it accurate on both SA and TA.
The Reich weighs grams and is ideal for touring.
Can you agree on that ?
nik said:And the answer to the original question was?.......
Is there a truly reliable noseweight guage on the market these days?
By the sounds of it - NO.
Parksy
Moderator
ProfJohnL said:
The Reich gauge measures the noseweight from the towball Prof, and the Milenco calibrated gauge measure at the towing hitch. The Reich takes the height difference created by the depth of the gauge into account.
If I decided to buy a replacement for my Milenco gauge I'd buy the Reich
If forum members are not just kidding when they state that they check their noseweight by simply lifting the tow hitch, that's a matter for them.
We are not police or weight inspectors, and if they are that far entrenched into their old school habits no amount of argument or persuasion will ever change their mind.
Parksy said:
There is no reason to differentiate the location of the measuring device. The load the nose of the trailer produces is always measured vertically through the hitch of the trailer. What supports the measuring device
has no bearing on the measurement taken except for the height it supports the hitch at which we know will alter the applied load. The Reich device alway lifts the raises the hitch, and whilst it applies a compensation, it will not be exact for all caravans. . It will be correct in some cases but that means it will be incorrect for all others. What is not known is how much error that actually causes.
I have already stated that I believe the Reich is the best gauge currently available BUT it is not perfect.
I agree, Old habits do die hard.
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