noseweight guage

[ProfJohnL]

Thanks Woodentop I can live 2 to 3 +/- even 5 to 10 but 30 +/- is a bit to much so I think it's going to be the reich as it give me the correct hitch height when doing it calculations . As with the milenco is a guess and 5mm could be as much as 30 +/-

No its doesn't. it adds about 75mm to the height of the hitch. Whilst Reich claim it compensates for the additional height (so that demonstrates there is an issue to be considered) it does not know the mechanical dimension of the trailer or how its loaded both of which affect the the nose load variation with hitch height., so it cannot accurately compensate for all trailers. Again Reich acknowledge this because they produce a gauges for single and twin axle caravans.

 

[Dustydog]

Thanks Woodentop I can live 2 to 3 +/- even 5 to 10 but 30 +/- is a bit to much so I think it's going to be the reich as it give me the correct hitch height when doing it calculations . As with the milenco is a guess and 5mm could be as much as 30 +/-

No its doesn't. it adds about 75mm to the height of the hitch. Whilst Reich claim it compensates for the additional height (so that demonstrates there is an issue to be considered) it does not know the mechanical dimension of the trailer or how its loaded both of which affect the the nose load variation with hitch height., so it cannot accurately compensate for all trailers. Again Reich acknowledge this because they produce a gauges for single and twin axle caravans.

Hi Prof
Is that an affirmation Reich are okay? :silly:

 

[Parksy]

Hi Prof
Is that an affirmation Reich are okay? :silly:

It's not as good as your average household bathroom scale and a bit of wood which can obviously detect and compensate for the mechanical dimension of either a single or twin axle trailer and how it's loaded. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Sorry Prof, I'm only teasing because you lost me with your last somewhat contradictory comment which I paraphrased
You don't sell bathroom scales by any chance do you? :lol:

 

[gravesyt]

Gents do Reich do bathroom scales :woohoo: :woohoo:

 

[Gafferbill]

I have heard (read it on the internet so it must be true) that there is an EU directive on the way that will require all vehicles up to 3500kgs that tow a trailer(caravan), to carry a set of bathroom scales and a piece of wood of the correct length.
This requirement is to enable the driver to check the nose weight of the trailer to within 4 decimal places.
The directive also stipulates that such vehicles towing livestock trailers must be fitted with humane livestock leg clamps to secure the animals and prevent their movement. This is necessary to maintain correct nose weight as any movement by the animal(s) will alter the nose weight setting. :silly:

 

[Hutch]

When, artic vechiles, towing a racing pidgeon trailer, does it get lighter if they all flap their wings at the same time?

 

[Hutch]

Looking at different websites, why is it necessary, to let the hand break off on the caravan, but of course chock the wheels. I can see you would be pivoting around the wheel axle and not the bottom of the tyre, but angular motion is negligable, as is the difference in tow hitch height on angular moments.
I will check out all these variables at the weekend and post again. Using bathroom scales and that horrible yellow one by AM group.

 

[Keefanmaxx]

Having read this entire thread, I decided to measure the nose-weight of my 'van using a set of highly uncalibrated bathroom scales balanced on the caravan steps with the ground level compensated for with quality glossy magazines as packing. After taking several readings and doing the maths I have discovered that my 'van is obese according to the body mass index table provided by my doctor.
Have I done something wrong?

Only joking!!!!

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Parksy,

We both know that details of rti's and prosecutions are not fully reported so we are unable to prove either way if prosecutions for errors in nose load have been made or not.

As to mitigating any potential prosecution, we are dealing with a limit that has legal authority by virtue of the EU's directives. It should be viewed in the same way as speed limits, where claims about inaccurate speedometers will not mitigate a prosecution for excess. It is the driver's responsibility to allow for any errors in the equipment they use and to ensure they within legal limits.

But the prosecution debate is a secondary issue, The main point is that if you are going to measure a nose load it should be done correctly.

As nose loads of trailer are affected by the height of the hitch, the true nose load for any vehicle can only be measured if the height of the hitch is the same as when it is coupled and ready to tow. If the trailer hitch is measured at any other height it will produce a reading but it will not be the true nose load.

The degree of nose load variation is the result of the trailers chassis dimensions, the number of axles and the way the trailer is loaded. Consequently even the same trailer will exhibit different variations depending on how it is loaded. Because of this you cannot simply decide to measure the nose load at a different height and add a fixed offset value to compensate for the height difference.

Any measurement system that fails to set the hitch height correctly cannot measure the correct nose load. Compression spring devices change their height depending on the applied load so even Milenco's product length is not going to be right height for all outfits, and of course it varies its length according to load so it won't necessarily be the same on subsequent trips.

I am not prepared to spend £97 to order BS7691:2004 so I cannot verify the efficacy of the standard in relation to required length or height of measurement for nose load. Standards are often quoted by manufacturers as an advertising ploy to give the impression a product is good, In fact standards represent the lowest acceptable performance for a product, and good manufacturers will try to exceed the standards.

Milenco's claim the product meets the requirement for accuracy maybe true but if it does not take into account the change in length under load and how that will affect the measurement height, then the claimed accuracy has no functional meaning.

The bottom line is that all tower's should ensure their nose load are within their vehicles specifications which are both safety and legal limits. They should ensure their measurement method allows for any errors to be considered and kept within those limits.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Having read this entire thread, I decided to measure the nose-weight of my 'van using a set of highly uncalibrated bathroom scales balanced on the caravan steps with the ground level compensated for with quality glossy magazines as packing. After taking several readings and doing the maths I have discovered that my 'van is obese according to the body mass index table provided by my doctor.
Have I done something wrong?

Only joking!!!!

Don't use glossy magazines unless the OH has given you permission, otherwise put the trailer on a diet.

 

[Parksy]

I'm fairly certain that if some hapless British touring caravan owner was ever faced with prosecution because of excessive noseweight forum members, Facebook group members and people within the caravan industry would have heard about it by now. There are no secrets on the internet
I'm sure that most of us are aware of how you believe the issue of noseweight should be viewed by caravanners, and what your preferred method of measurement is Prof, but the amount of nit picking that has appeared in one form or another on this and other forums over the years to my mind represents a degree of overkill whenever a newbie has the temerity to ask about noseweight measurement.
If a caravanner has bought a gauge, done some research to find out what height he should measure at and uses it then many would suggest that this is fair enough, there will be other much more important safety issues for them to consider when the measuring is done.
As you no doubt know, legal tow hitch height is given as between 350mm and 420mm Prof. If a caravan is loaded in such a way that the noseweight is within the required weight specification when measured within the correct height range then why would there be any significant degree of inaccuracy?
The spring is already compressed when measurement is taken, if more noseweight is added the spring will compress further and the needle will move round the dial or the pointer will sink to a higher number on the casing indicator to indicate the added weight, and if weight is removed the indicated noseweight will decrease.
As long as the hitch height remains within the specified range of 350mm to 420mm the measurement would be reasonably accurate.
Digital noseweight gauges such as the Reich use electronic pressure sensors rather than compression springs of any kind, or pull springs with rack and pinion lever arrangements in the case of old style domestic bathroom scales, all of which are subject to wear and tear. There is a potential height difference of 70mm within the specified towball height so the electronic sensors, with few if any moving part,s may only have to compensate for a 5mm departure from the specified height range if the towball is correctly fitted. They make different models for s/a and t/a which use different load sensing parameters so why would they be any more inaccurate than a bathroom scale?

 

[Hutch]

I cannot see how the Reich unit can compensate for height of the tow hitch unless you can give the unit a hieght AGL. . Sounds like, Waffle, to me. Same for double axle caravans, nose weight is nose weight, on the hitch point.

 

[Gabsgrandad]

Trouble with these topics is that you've got to make yourself look like an 'expert', Me never met one yet! --But nose weight? Yep when the blue moon comes round I check it on the Reich.
Sorry Mr. Pedantic if this is not good enough!
(But in 40 years vanning, neither I nor dozens of friends & acquaintances have never ever mentioned being pulled or checked. -- Have you?)
{ps My outfit tows beautifully stably even been known to "accidently" speed! }

 

[gravesyt]

I have now bought the Reich as I need something other than scales and stick but what I will do only once is do a comparison scales then Reich and go from there as nothing is on the market that's 100% accurate (with in budget) we make the best of what's available that is all we can do to make things as safe as possible for ourselves and other road users

 

[Dustydog]

We now have four Reichs and no complaints . Not bad
This is the latest version of a reference book I used at work. To the best of my knowledge there are no cases of prosecution relating to an incorrect nose weight. https://store.lexisnexis.co.uk/categories/products/bingham-and-berrymans-personal-injury-and-motor-claims-cases-14th-edition-skuuksku9781405791151BBMC1454384/details

 

[00buzz]

Does all this mean that when I ram my 'Lay-z-spa' hot tub in the gas locker, I need to check my nose weight......... :huh:

 

[ProfJohnL]

Does all this mean that when I ram my 'Lay-z-spa' hot tub in the gas locker, I need to check my nose weight......... :huh:

Yes!

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Dusty,
Answering your earlier question,

The Reich devises raise the height of the hitch, so any measurement they take will not be the actual nose load. I understand you cannot programme the device with details of the car or trailer, so any correction Reich have built into the device will be a guess.

We now have four Reichs and no complaints . Not bad
This is the latest version of a reference book I used at work. To the best of my knowledge there are no cases of prosecution relating to an incorrect nose weight. https://store.lexisnexis.co.uk/categories/products/bingham-and-berrymans-personal-injury-and-motor-claims-cases-14th-edition-skuuksku9781405791151BBMC1454384/details

The information about the book says
"...Covering all reported cases relevant to claims arising out of road traffic accidents,...."

Being pulled over for check which then results in a prosecution would not appear in the book as there has been no accident involved.

 

[Hutch]

Ok Prof , I agree with you there. But if it weighs 50 kg Buzz can put 50 kgs of cider aft of the axle, but ditch the awning to the car.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Ok Prof , I agree with you there. But if it weighs 50 kg Buzz can put 50 kgs of cider aft of the axle, but ditch the awning to the car.

Why bother? it seem no one is interested in doing nose weight correctly, just throw it all in and the bags of cement you need for making the foundations. :evil:

 

[colin-yorkshire]

Ok Prof , I agree with you there. But if it weighs 50 kg Buzz can put 50 kgs of cider aft of the axle, but ditch the awning to the car.

Why bother? it seem no one is interested in doing nose weight correctly, just throw it all in and the bags of cement you need for making the foundations. :evil:

that is very funny Prof, :lol: and just about the most practical statement I have heard you say in a long while.
things like noseweight, and such issues are far too much done to death on the technical side, and it only seems caravanners are the ones bothered, one will do everything possible to get it right, yet hang the garden trailer on the car and fill it till the tyres go flat, on the way to the tip. and never think once about the weight.

to be absolutely honest it was only when changing the car to one with a 50kg maximum I ever bothered to weigh it before that, it was just a tug on the hitch, totally un scientific, but none the less perfectly sound,
at 75kg, it was just over the limit of being able to pick it up,one handed, :woohoo: that was abut 65kg, so if I could just lift it, fair enough, no chance of being over, but heavy enough to be of practical use. did it that way for 30 years without issue, and seeing as how I had to lift the hitch onto the car every time it was towed, the nose load was always tested. and when I did get round to measuring it guess what, 63kg, EHU out of the box into the back of the van 45kg job done towed like that all the time we had the van, so what is the reason I should have bought a super duper accurate precision instrument, to do what I already knew, no idea.

 

[Hutch]

I always tow on the safer side of regulations, so for the Newbies, check you are not going over your tow car and caravan limits wether it is by bathroom scales etc. Even with Bathroom scales, if you should be within 5 kg you should be safe enough.
Hopefully most will agree.
Safe touring this summer.
Hutch

 

[ProfJohnL]

...things like noseweight, and such issues are far too much done to death on the technical side, and it only seems caravanners are the ones bothered, one will do everything possible to get it right, yet hang the garden trailer on the car and fill it till the tyres go flat, on the way to the tip. and never think once about the weight....

... it was just a tug on the hitch, totally un scientific, but none the less perfectly sound,
at 75kg, it was just over the limit of being able to pick it up,one handed, :woohoo: that was abut 65kg, so if I could just lift it, fair enough, no chance of being over, but heavy enough to be of practical use. did it that way for 30 years without issue, and seeing as how I had to lift the hitch onto the car every time it was towed, the nose load was always tested. and when I did get round to measuring it guess what, 63kg, EHU out of the box into the back of the van 45kg job done towed like that all the time we had the van, so what is the reason I should have bought a super duper accurate precision instrument, to do what I already knew, no idea.

If the subject has been done to death , why is that we continue to get contributors asking about it?

Nose load should be the concern of ALL towers. A relative found that out to his cost , when as you describe he loaded a large garden trailer up and towed it . It have jackknife his car fortunately only bruised confidence and egos, with a £2000 repair bill to the car.

You are 100% correct when you describe the assessment of nose load by using the Human lift, It is entirely unscientific , and where we disagree, it is far from sound. I would agree that if it is too heavy to lift the chances are it may be over most cars nose load limit, but that does not means the converse is true, just because you can lift it does not mean its ok to hitch. You can only know that by measuring

It was only by chance when you did measure it it happened to be just under your limit, it could easily have been over especially with a low available limit, And that is the main reason why reasonably accurate measurement becomes more critical.

And again another point I have been trying to bring home to roost is that you don't need to purchase a "super duper accurate precision instrument," because the humble bathroom scales will do a better job than virtually any of the retail products available, and at a much reduced cost to boot.

If the jobs worth doing, its worth doing it properly, and not fudging the issue. And where this concern I have about nose load really came to the fore was about the setting of TA nose loads where the geometry of the trailer makes it even more critical to get it right.

 

[Dustydog]

Hello Dusty,
Answering your earlier question,

The Reich devises raise the height of the hitch, so any measurement they take will not be the actual nose load. I understand you cannot programme the device with details of the car or trailer, so any correction Reich have built into the device will be a guess.

We now have four Reichs and no complaints . Not bad
This is the latest version of a reference book I used at work. To the best of my knowledge there are no cases of prosecution relating to an incorrect nose weight. https://store.lexisnexis.co.uk/categories/products/bingham-and-berrymans-personal-injury-and-motor-claims-cases-14th-edition-skuuksku9781405791151BBMC1454384/details

The information about the book says
"...Covering all reported cases relevant to claims arising out of road traffic accidents,...."

Being pulled over for check which then results in a prosecution would not appear in the book as there has been no accident involved.

Hi Prof.
It's a very sad day when a newbie on here is told most commercial measures are rubbish. I fully appreciate your point which is valid but you didn't acknowledge my earlier comment that I and indeed others on here have measured our Reich readings against your bathroom scale method. The difference was negligible.
I think it is very unfair to dimiss the Reich as "not fit for purpose"

My point regarding the Book is that no motor accident involving litigation has arisen due to a wrong nose weight load.
I fully accept you point on the Law but to the best of my knowledge over 38 years of towing I am not aware of anyone being prosecuted.

Maybe it's time for PCv to research the various nose weight measurement methods and publish the result . There's nothing stopping them seeking counsel from Milenco, Reich etc

 

[Thingy]

Isnt all this getting a little over precsie. Any newbies reading this are going be get seriously confused.

Does it really matter to within a Kg or so. These guages surely are only a guide. If you measure it and it reads 75.5kg for a 75kg towball, how much sleep are you really going to lose? Even a slight incline on the ground can make a difference of a kg or so.