How can a debate evolve without seeing the other side of the coin?
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Now here's a pretty pickle - who'll buy a 4x4 now??
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The thing is, I wouldn't mind if I thought that punitive measures against cars would achieve anything. But they cannot and they won't.
In the current drought, people largely accepted water saving measures because supplies were very successfully conserved (according to my water supplier). Fine, a means to an end.
But with emissions, it's a totally different matter.
Look at the globe - you will see a pin prick that is the British Isles (responsible in fact for just 2% of world pollution).
If every single mode of transport and polluting industry was wiped out here, it would not make a blind bit of difference to the perceived pollution threat to the world.
"Spitting" and "into the wind" come to mind!
If there is a problem, then it can only possibly be resolved at an international level - and that means world wide agreement to cut the emissions, particularly in the US and China.
It would mean we all recognise the crisis and, OK, we've got to make sacrifices to solve it. I could live with that because it would be realistic and, as in the water, analagy would actually achieve the solution.
But in the meantime we have to suffer pointless, vicious, vindictive and mis-directed hammer blows to our pockets and to our freedom of choice...
In the meantime, car manufacturers across the world are gearing up to churn out more and more 4x4s. Not much hope of green tendency there...
In the meantime, our leaders - government, royal family, captains of industry - drive around in convoys of Jags and Range Rovers. Not much ethical conscience on view there...
In the meantime, we are urged to switch off our TV standby at nights - while in the next few weeks we will waste thousands on excessive ('excessive', I said) Christmas lights!
Funny old world...
In the current drought, people largely accepted water saving measures because supplies were very successfully conserved (according to my water supplier). Fine, a means to an end.
But with emissions, it's a totally different matter.
Look at the globe - you will see a pin prick that is the British Isles (responsible in fact for just 2% of world pollution).
If every single mode of transport and polluting industry was wiped out here, it would not make a blind bit of difference to the perceived pollution threat to the world.
"Spitting" and "into the wind" come to mind!
If there is a problem, then it can only possibly be resolved at an international level - and that means world wide agreement to cut the emissions, particularly in the US and China.
It would mean we all recognise the crisis and, OK, we've got to make sacrifices to solve it. I could live with that because it would be realistic and, as in the water, analagy would actually achieve the solution.
But in the meantime we have to suffer pointless, vicious, vindictive and mis-directed hammer blows to our pockets and to our freedom of choice...
In the meantime, car manufacturers across the world are gearing up to churn out more and more 4x4s. Not much hope of green tendency there...
In the meantime, our leaders - government, royal family, captains of industry - drive around in convoys of Jags and Range Rovers. Not much ethical conscience on view there...
In the meantime, we are urged to switch off our TV standby at nights - while in the next few weeks we will waste thousands on excessive ('excessive', I said) Christmas lights!
Funny old world...
G
Guest
All this is about Is - TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX
TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TXA ATX....
...............................
Those who get hit either pay the tax into the government coffers or if they change to smaller cars you will all just get taxed more! Many with business's will just pass the bill on so you will pay with higher prices and inflation.
Unemployment has gone up again yet your borders are an open door with foreign workers flooding in, Government needs your money to pay the extra costs and GREEN issues give a nice smoke screen.
As said, turn your TV stand-by off but buy every electronic gizmo going to keep the economy afloat. Christmas Lights and all those fireworks do wonders for the Green Cause no doubt.
Your out of town stores have lights blazing 24/7 and empty offices are lit up all over the land. DIY stores and others have lights blazing for no need and tv's playing advertising and insrtuctional video's to zero audience for hours on end.
China is putting more and more on the road whilst the USA still turns out gas guzzlers that run on cheap fuel yet the mugs here in the UK are expected to make sacrifices.
Do you honestly all think that giving up a 4X4 here and turning your stand-by off will mean people in China and the 3rd world will not aspire to cars and modern day devices that they have never had before especially when they are making them for you or that Bush or the next president will tax US fuel the same as here.
TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TXA ATX....
...............................
Those who get hit either pay the tax into the government coffers or if they change to smaller cars you will all just get taxed more! Many with business's will just pass the bill on so you will pay with higher prices and inflation.
Unemployment has gone up again yet your borders are an open door with foreign workers flooding in, Government needs your money to pay the extra costs and GREEN issues give a nice smoke screen.
As said, turn your TV stand-by off but buy every electronic gizmo going to keep the economy afloat. Christmas Lights and all those fireworks do wonders for the Green Cause no doubt.
Your out of town stores have lights blazing 24/7 and empty offices are lit up all over the land. DIY stores and others have lights blazing for no need and tv's playing advertising and insrtuctional video's to zero audience for hours on end.
China is putting more and more on the road whilst the USA still turns out gas guzzlers that run on cheap fuel yet the mugs here in the UK are expected to make sacrifices.
Do you honestly all think that giving up a 4X4 here and turning your stand-by off will mean people in China and the 3rd world will not aspire to cars and modern day devices that they have never had before especially when they are making them for you or that Bush or the next president will tax US fuel the same as here.
I am bored with the minority trying to make out that "If by taxation, congestion charges or by whatever means we can reduce 4x4 ownership in this country it has got to be a good thing"
Just ask them what they will say to their grandchildren when Global Warming has really taken hold and the grandchildren ask what they did to stop it?
The reply "Well we banned an insignificant number of vehicles of a certain type!" is not really going to cut it when China is opening a new coalfired power station every week and the Rain Forests being destroyed so that we in the West can run our cars on bio-diesel.
The problem is far more complicated than wanting to ban a vehicle type.
Those that want to are frauds - using a very real problem to mask their vindictive, ill-conceived and emotional claptrap.
I ask you - now that we have NCAP data that PROOVES that 4x4's are not the problem that the numpties have tried and failed to make out - what on earth is the point of an agenda that tries to reduce the number of AWD vehicles on the road.
The publicity the Anti's crave actually has the opposite effect judging by the increased sales of 4x4's across the globe.
Just ask them what they will say to their grandchildren when Global Warming has really taken hold and the grandchildren ask what they did to stop it?
The reply "Well we banned an insignificant number of vehicles of a certain type!" is not really going to cut it when China is opening a new coalfired power station every week and the Rain Forests being destroyed so that we in the West can run our cars on bio-diesel.
The problem is far more complicated than wanting to ban a vehicle type.
Those that want to are frauds - using a very real problem to mask their vindictive, ill-conceived and emotional claptrap.
I ask you - now that we have NCAP data that PROOVES that 4x4's are not the problem that the numpties have tried and failed to make out - what on earth is the point of an agenda that tries to reduce the number of AWD vehicles on the road.
The publicity the Anti's crave actually has the opposite effect judging by the increased sales of 4x4's across the globe.
G
Guest
The nupties as you decribe them Clive V and New Labour if there is any difference and loads of other politicians do as you usual.
Pick the easy target !
The layabouts and whingers who want everything spoon fed to them will follow like lemmings because laying blame on people who have a bit of cash for a 4x4 or a Bentley fits with the old green eyed streak.
Two Jags Prezza and Tony AIRMILES CONDE NAST TRAVELLER Blair and Cuban Ken all set trend setting green example I note!
+ they and others have their heads so much up where the Sun don't shine they try and peddle the idea that if UK sets of into the lead others will follow.
I guess thats the same way they all followed UK into Iraq and follow us on Whaling, Fishing Quotas, netting Dolphins and Human Rights and many other ways.
Pick the easy target !
The layabouts and whingers who want everything spoon fed to them will follow like lemmings because laying blame on people who have a bit of cash for a 4x4 or a Bentley fits with the old green eyed streak.
Two Jags Prezza and Tony AIRMILES CONDE NAST TRAVELLER Blair and Cuban Ken all set trend setting green example I note!
+ they and others have their heads so much up where the Sun don't shine they try and peddle the idea that if UK sets of into the lead others will follow.
I guess thats the same way they all followed UK into Iraq and follow us on Whaling, Fishing Quotas, netting Dolphins and Human Rights and many other ways.
CliveV, I too am bored with the stock answer "why should I do anything about global warming when China is opening a coal fired power station every day"
We have all got to do our bit to cut emissions and raise awareness and to try to educate the "numpties" who think that the consequence of global warming is more nice hot summers.
I am no angel, I own a diesel Jag partly for towing the van but mainly because I have to do a certain amount of corporate entertaining and tuning up at a clients office in an Austin Maxi is a big no no.
What I am against is the needless 4x4 ownership eg the second car for the school run or for nipping down to Harrods, or the buying into the lifestyle type purchase.
We have all got to do our bit to cut emissions and raise awareness and to try to educate the "numpties" who think that the consequence of global warming is more nice hot summers.
I am no angel, I own a diesel Jag partly for towing the van but mainly because I have to do a certain amount of corporate entertaining and tuning up at a clients office in an Austin Maxi is a big no no.
What I am against is the needless 4x4 ownership eg the second car for the school run or for nipping down to Harrods, or the buying into the lifestyle type purchase.
Agreed euro
What with the cash for peerages and Cuban Ken (I like that!) calling a Jewish journalist a "Nazi" because he kept pushing Ken on a subject - you can see the role models that the anti this and anti that brigade aspire to.
i.e. - If you cannot get what you want by proper and fair means then alter the facts/odds. And if someone then calls you to account, then call them names.
It's all been on here!
What a wonderful microcosm of political life this Forum is!
What with the cash for peerages and Cuban Ken (I like that!) calling a Jewish journalist a "Nazi" because he kept pushing Ken on a subject - you can see the role models that the anti this and anti that brigade aspire to.
i.e. - If you cannot get what you want by proper and fair means then alter the facts/odds. And if someone then calls you to account, then call them names.
It's all been on here!
What a wonderful microcosm of political life this Forum is!
Red Ken, and it would seem Ricky Lionheart, are social engineers - it's nothing to do with global warming but all about control. Ricky says he objects to people with second cars. Where I live there are hundreds of holiday and 2nd homes and the harbour has hundreds of private boats many powered by large diesel engines. Are these to be next in line for the social engineers? Jet ski's race around are these to be penalised for wasteing precious resources.
Anybody who thinks paying Gordon Brown or Ken Livingstone money will have any effect on global warming is living on cloud cookoo land. Every penney spent on taxes is less to spend in the general economy. More taxes = more unemployment and business closures = less income tax and National Insurance income.
The measure of how prosperous a country is can be determined by the number and type of private vehicles on the road.
Anybody who thinks paying Gordon Brown or Ken Livingstone money will have any effect on global warming is living on cloud cookoo land. Every penney spent on taxes is less to spend in the general economy. More taxes = more unemployment and business closures = less income tax and National Insurance income.
The measure of how prosperous a country is can be determined by the number and type of private vehicles on the road.
Ricky
You drive a Jag and admit that you are no angel but you self righteously object to what you see as the school run 4x4?
I suppose you would not object if all the Mums with 4x4's sold them and bought, say, Chrysler Voyagers or Kia Sedonna's et al that are bigger, less fuel efficient and with lower NCAP ratings than most 4x4's?
These large people carriers are "OK" presumably in your view because they are 2WD?
No clear logic in your thinking - just emotion.
I think your car is a wonderful bit of kit and am pleased that Jag now makes a fine car. What a shame the sales fig's of Jag are so poor. A real contrast to Land Rover (part of Fords PAG with Jag) whose sales are at an all-time high. Even gaining back market share in global markets where LR has struggled due to previous quality problems.
I have never wanted to control what sort of car ANYONE has. Why do you think you have the right to dictate what I should not have?
Using the pollution card is nonsense just look at the NCAP data and the fact that I (and others) run our vehicles on LPG - that makes our emissions FAR FAR lower than yours in your oil burning Jag.
So what right have you got to lecture me on what I should or should not have? Because you pollute far more than I do.
You drive a Jag and admit that you are no angel but you self righteously object to what you see as the school run 4x4?
I suppose you would not object if all the Mums with 4x4's sold them and bought, say, Chrysler Voyagers or Kia Sedonna's et al that are bigger, less fuel efficient and with lower NCAP ratings than most 4x4's?
These large people carriers are "OK" presumably in your view because they are 2WD?
No clear logic in your thinking - just emotion.
I think your car is a wonderful bit of kit and am pleased that Jag now makes a fine car. What a shame the sales fig's of Jag are so poor. A real contrast to Land Rover (part of Fords PAG with Jag) whose sales are at an all-time high. Even gaining back market share in global markets where LR has struggled due to previous quality problems.
I have never wanted to control what sort of car ANYONE has. Why do you think you have the right to dictate what I should not have?
Using the pollution card is nonsense just look at the NCAP data and the fact that I (and others) run our vehicles on LPG - that makes our emissions FAR FAR lower than yours in your oil burning Jag.
So what right have you got to lecture me on what I should or should not have? Because you pollute far more than I do.
G
Guest
So you think that if I get my wife a mini Ricky that the difference between that and her X5 will save the planet!
The people who shop with their Range Rovers at Harrods in general will not give a stuff and if you ban them they will spend the money elsewhere and do just as much damge to the Environment.
Sell the Range Rover and spend the money on extra fuel for a bigger Princess Power Boat at Ocean Village or a helicopter flight into the derby etc etc.
China power stations are not the stock answer but just the thin edge of the environmental wedge that is emerging from a huge population that are quickly catching up with the 21st century along with plenty of other 3rd world nations.
Ricky. Again we have you with your legit Jag because of your corporate entertainment and clients but others are expected to sell their personal choice to save the planet and make you feel good.
Same old tale just like the Politicians, Crush that nasty 4 x 4 this weekend whilst my Chopper flies me to Chequers, Prezza and co hop in their Jags and a few ministers jet half way around the world to look a recycling project and social housing in Maui whilst staying at a nice little 5 star hotel.
The people who shop with their Range Rovers at Harrods in general will not give a stuff and if you ban them they will spend the money elsewhere and do just as much damge to the Environment.
Sell the Range Rover and spend the money on extra fuel for a bigger Princess Power Boat at Ocean Village or a helicopter flight into the derby etc etc.
China power stations are not the stock answer but just the thin edge of the environmental wedge that is emerging from a huge population that are quickly catching up with the 21st century along with plenty of other 3rd world nations.
Ricky. Again we have you with your legit Jag because of your corporate entertainment and clients but others are expected to sell their personal choice to save the planet and make you feel good.
Same old tale just like the Politicians, Crush that nasty 4 x 4 this weekend whilst my Chopper flies me to Chequers, Prezza and co hop in their Jags and a few ministers jet half way around the world to look a recycling project and social housing in Maui whilst staying at a nice little 5 star hotel.
Wanna drive a "big car" in London - there really is no problem. Buy an LPG converted model or have it converted, make sure it's on the approved TFL list, pay the
Ricky has already said that he has the jag for image. It is not a neccesity just his wish. He wants to be free to do what he likes but wishes to control others. Its amazing really, a big jag towing a large white slab of a caravan and he lectures others on fuel conservation. He is in good company though, Red Ken has just spentRicky
You drive a Jag and admit that you are no angel but you self righteously object to what you see as the school run 4x4?
I suppose you would not object if all the Mums with 4x4's sold them and bought, say, Chrysler Voyagers or Kia Sedonna's et al that are bigger, less fuel efficient and with lower NCAP ratings than most 4x4's?
These large people carriers are "OK" presumably in your view because they are 2WD?
No clear logic in your thinking - just emotion.
I think your car is a wonderful bit of kit and am pleased that Jag now makes a fine car. What a shame the sales fig's of Jag are so poor. A real contrast to Land Rover (part of Fords PAG with Jag) whose sales are at an all-time high. Even gaining back market share in global markets where LR has struggled due to previous quality problems.
I have never wanted to control what sort of car ANYONE has. Why do you think you have the right to dictate what I should not have?
Using the pollution card is nonsense just look at the NCAP data and the fact that I (and others) run our vehicles on LPG - that makes our emissions FAR FAR lower than yours in your oil burning Jag.
So what right have you got to lecture me on what I should or should not have? Because you pollute far more than I do.
From Lisa on Chit Chathttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/6157190.stm
Frank
frank
I may as well be speaking Swaheeli by trying to get my message across here.
What I am saying is to think about your purchase, do you really need to lug an extra half ton of kit around with you ie heavier transmissions with umpteen gears, bigger bodies etc etc when more economical and friendlier to the environment alternatives are available, simple as that, it's not rocket science.
Global warming is here, don't let it just wash over you.
What I am saying is to think about your purchase, do you really need to lug an extra half ton of kit around with you ie heavier transmissions with umpteen gears, bigger bodies etc etc when more economical and friendlier to the environment alternatives are available, simple as that, it's not rocket science.
Global warming is here, don't let it just wash over you.
Ok so I will think about having the capability of a 4x4 when I am towing the Ifor Williams twin axle with lord knows what on it through all sorts of weather that is going to hit us this weekend and I shall consider doing the same in something like a Vauxhall Corsa.
Mind you I am not sure our local CCU that calls on the Wessex 4x4 Response teams would be impressed if we turned up to a call out without 4x4's!
Right - I've thought about it - I think I will stick with the 4x4!! Even if I have to use it for the equivalent of the school run as well from time to time.
Meanwhile I will ponder the problem of having to have a Jag because of the image is better than that of a Maxi - But then a Corsa has more street creed than a Maxi!!! So where does that leave the Jag in the "Image" stakes?
Mind you I am not sure our local CCU that calls on the Wessex 4x4 Response teams would be impressed if we turned up to a call out without 4x4's!
Right - I've thought about it - I think I will stick with the 4x4!! Even if I have to use it for the equivalent of the school run as well from time to time.
Meanwhile I will ponder the problem of having to have a Jag because of the image is better than that of a Maxi - But then a Corsa has more street creed than a Maxi!!! So where does that leave the Jag in the "Image" stakes?
Ricky, It would be useful if you could talk Swahelli as they have got real problems in Kenya. They have been cutting trees down for charcoal, the basic cooking and heating fuel for several decades and now have problems with a declining resource. They are considering building French Nucleur power stations to provide cheap electricity.I may as well be speaking Swaheeli by trying to get my message across here.
What I am saying is to think about your purchase, do you really need to lug an extra half ton of kit around with you ie heavier transmissions with umpteen gears, bigger bodies etc etc when more economical and friendlier to the environment alternatives are available, simple as that, it's not rocket science.
Global warming is here, don't let it just wash over you.
Ricky
I am of the impression that most people on here are responsible and "do their bit", I know I certainly try to.
but it is a FACT that even if Britain were to stop producing carbon emmissions tomorrow, it would only take China and India alone 1 year to make up the difference - not counting America, who's individuals have a much larger carbon footprint that any Brit.
of course if you were serious about "getting your message across" your would sell the caravan AND the jag, stop the corporate entertaining, and switch off the computer you use to post messages on here!
it's easy to tell everyone else to "think about their purchase" but make sure you are practicing what you preach.
Mark (",)
I am of the impression that most people on here are responsible and "do their bit", I know I certainly try to.
but it is a FACT that even if Britain were to stop producing carbon emmissions tomorrow, it would only take China and India alone 1 year to make up the difference - not counting America, who's individuals have a much larger carbon footprint that any Brit.
of course if you were serious about "getting your message across" your would sell the caravan AND the jag, stop the corporate entertaining, and switch off the computer you use to post messages on here!
it's easy to tell everyone else to "think about their purchase" but make sure you are practicing what you preach.
Mark (",)
So, the new Santa Fe 4x4 (Band F) giving 42mpg extra urban is no good then for carrying my family of 7 and towing my caravan out of a muddy field occasionaly?
What do I buy then?
What do I buy then?
Errrr! one of the more vociferous Anti's did suggest the Chrysler Voyager in the past! Hard to believe I know, but it did happen.
Those of us familiar with the NCAP and other data on cars like yours Michael, the excellent Santa Fe, Honda, LR, Kia etc etc could hardly post our replies because we were laughing so much.
Those of us familiar with the NCAP and other data on cars like yours Michael, the excellent Santa Fe, Honda, LR, Kia etc etc could hardly post our replies because we were laughing so much.
LOL!!!!I may as well be speaking Swaheeli by trying to get my message across here.
What I am saying is to think about your purchase, do you really need to lug an extra half ton of kit around with you ie heavier transmissions with umpteen gears, bigger bodies etc etc when more economical and friendlier to the environment alternatives are available, simple as that, it's not rocket science.
Global warming is here, don't let it just wash over you.
Anyway Ricky what's wrong with turning up at corporate do's in an Austin Maxi, if it was a nice one you'd probably score quite a few brownie points in certain quarters and just think, all its manufacturing carbon emmisions have been well stretched out now after 30 odd years. Only trouble is most Maxis have oxidised away now which is sad.
Most real 4x4's however, will last for at least 30 years, and that includes their shafts and transfer boxes that you go on about, which in carbon emmision terms makes them quite green in a sort of way doesn't it?
Live and let live mate
Most real 4x4's however, will last for at least 30 years, and that includes their shafts and transfer boxes that you go on about, which in carbon emmision terms makes them quite green in a sort of way doesn't it?
Live and let live mate
There seems to be a lot of shortsightedness among forum users here and an I'm alright Jack and sod the others type of attitude.
Things are going to have to change and our driving habits are one of the first things that will be targeted, the writing's on the wall
So while all you 4x4 drivers are sitting there quite smug, I'll lay a bet that you will not be quite so smug in a few years time
Things are going to have to change and our driving habits are one of the first things that will be targeted, the writing's on the wall
So while all you 4x4 drivers are sitting there quite smug, I'll lay a bet that you will not be quite so smug in a few years time
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