p.i.r inspection

[GStockton]

Dougie. In the electrical testing industry there are various industry standards we work to as laid out in the IEE guide book 3. If it is imposible to unplug an appliance due to an inaccessable plug and socket, microwave fridge etc then that can be put down as a departure from the regs and a limitation used i.e. for l to n insulation resistance test you would insert LIM in the result box,similer with the r1 + R2 test.There is no need to examine the wiring in its entirity by pulling out appliances fridges cookers etc,you only inspect what you can see.If there is any doubt about damaged to electronics then the IR tester should be set to 250v not 500v. You can`t limit ZS or RCD tests though.it is permisable to obtain the circuit r1+r2 test by calculation from ZE ZS especialy if the EIC is present.

Really the NCC should not get involved in the electrical side.The only Caravan centre I know who used to have NICEIC registration and a full time proffesional electrician was Lowdhams in Nottingham I don`t know if he is still there but they are not on the NIC register anymore.

 

[Heethers]

At last a time served professional with the correct procedure of a PIR, it seems to me the NCC need to talk to the correct training body before they start handing out certifications to service depots and their service technicians on what is actually required.

Mr Stockton thank you for your understanding on what is actually required for a PIR.

I now feel relieved that a PIR should not now take more than an hour and as such should be at reasonable price we all can afford, you say you train Sparks to test periodic inspection reports, what certification do they require and what should we has a customers ask to see to ensure we have the relevant people to carry out the test.

NigelH

 

[JohnKS]

I E Mailed the NCC some 2 weeks ago re this subject to get an answwer from the horses mouth. We the horses mouth is vague as I guessed it would be.

Dear Mr ******,

Please accept my apologies for taking so long to reply.

The NCC is still working on this, in order to completely clear up the issue of PIRs.

A statement will be released shortly that will detail the situation to all concerned: this will be made available through the Caravan Club, Camping and Caravan Club and the caravan press.

Kind regards,

Martin Perman

Technical Officer

National Caravan Council

I did the same but didn't get a reply from the NCC.

At least a statement might clarify the situation instead of everybody getting hot under the collar and proabably talking a load of rubbish!!

 

[rayc]

At last a time served professional with the correct procedure of a PIR, it seems to me the NCC need to talk to the correct training body before they start handing out certifications to service depots and their service technicians on what is actually required.

Mr Stockton thank you for your understanding on what is actually required for a PIR.

I now feel relieved that a PIR should not now take more than an hour and as such should be at reasonable price we all can afford, you say you train Sparks to test periodic inspection reports, what certification do they require and what should we has a customers ask to see to ensure we have the relevant people to carry out the test.

NigelH

I fully agree with that.

 

[rayc]

At last a time served professional with the correct procedure of a PIR, it seems to me the NCC need to talk to the correct training body before they start handing out certifications to service depots and their service technicians on what is actually required.

Mr Stockton thank you for your understanding on what is actually required for a PIR.

I now feel relieved that a PIR should not now take more than an hour and as such should be at reasonable price we all can afford, you say you train Sparks to test periodic inspection reports, what certification do they require and what should we has a customers ask to see to ensure we have the relevant people to carry out the test.

NigelH

This is what I would want to see,not a certificate of competence from the NCC.

"The City & Guilds Level 3 Certificate in Inspection, Testing and Certification of Electrical Installations (2391-10)

Previously known as the qualification 2391-01. If you want to inspect and test electrical installations, then this qualification is right for you. This qualification has been developed to satisfy the requirements for Proposed Qualified Supervisors (PQSs) for various scheme operatives".

 

[GStockton]

Ray C Thats right city and guild 2391/2392 is required.I am the registered qualifing supervisor for my company We do our own in house training for testers over and above 2391

I have to requalify every year by a vist from the area engineer of our governing body.

The testing of a caravan is no big deal after all what have you got 2 lights, 3 sockets a fridge water heater,space heater and battery charger / psu. All normally on no more than 3 circuits mostly 2 then a mains lead and rcd to test.

As soon as it gets warmer I will go out and pir my van.

 

[rayc]

Graham, Just for your interest I have a 2008 French built Chausson Motorhome. The Trigano group, of which Chausson is a part, are not members of the NCC scheme.

The 'Consumer Unit' has a single 13A combined RCD / MCB [ECLB?], which disconnects both the Live and Neutral legs of the supply in the event of a fault. When you manually switch of the MCB or do a test both legs of the supply are disconnected There are 4 circuits that plug into the unit, one for the fridge, one for the boiler/heater, one for the battery charger and one for the two sockets. No run is longer than 3metres from the unit.

 

[GStockton]

Ray Thats an easy system to test then, an rcd/mcb combined is called a rcbo it would take longer to fill in the paperwork than to test it

Glenn

 

[Heethers]

As a ex timed served engineer fitter by trade l totally y agree with you both, what worries me is that the NCC will devise a course and supposedly train technicians to do the tests without the correct qualifications to do the course,

NVQ3 is the minimum that anyone should be allowed to carry out these tests, which is the equivalent of City and Guilds now.

NigelH

 

[Surfer]

BTW will visitors from the continent have to get a PIR done on their caravans prior to hooking up if it is ever becomes mandatory?

 

[JohnL]

BTW will visitors from the continent have to get a PIR done on their caravans prior to hooking up if it is ever becomes mandatory?

Hello Ian,

If it becomes mandatory, then it has to apply to all hook ups, so yes our continental cousins will need either a PIR or a certificate of equivalent authority. It could be interesting.

 

[JohnL]

Dougie. In the electrical testing industry there are various industry standards we work to as laid out in the IEE guide book 3. If it is imposible to unplug an appliance due to an inaccessable plug and socket, microwave fridge etc then that can be put down as a departure from the regs and a limitation used i.e. for l to n insulation resistance test you would insert LIM in the result box,similer with the r1 + R2 test.There is no need to examine the wiring in its entirity by pulling out appliances fridges cookers etc,you only inspect what you can see.If there is any doubt about damaged to electronics then the IR tester should be set to 250v not 500v. You can`t limit ZS or RCD tests though.it is permisable to obtain the circuit r1+r2 test by calculation from ZE ZS especialy if the EIC is present.

Really the NCC should not get involved in the electrical side.The only Caravan centre I know who used to have NICEIC registration and a full time proffesional electrician was Lowdhams in Nottingham I don`t know if he is still there but they are not on the NIC register anymore.

Hello Glen,

I agree with your first paragraph, but your second leaves me concerned.

If I submitted my caravan to a dealer for repairs or to have a change made in the caravans mains wiring, I would be very unhappy if I found that a non qualified person was messing around with my wiring.

I think that all caravan workshops should have properly trained persons to deal with electrics gas and running gear.

Perhaps the training does not need to be as extensive as for full domestic or industrial work, but Calor used to do LPG caravan system training, and I imagine that short courses covering the extent of caravan installations could be easily devised for electrics as well.

 

[Surfer]

Waiting for feedback from people who are visiting the NCC stand at the NEC. Could be interesting.

 

[Heethers]

Bet NCC recoil into their shell

 

[dougie_374468830]

Eu state caravans are tested every year as part of a separate scheme similar to an mot.Wait till that comes to this country, caravans registered and taxed as vehicles in their own right.

To G Stockton, i respect that your knowledge of electrics is far greater than mine, But my understanding is that where possible appliances must be disconnected either by socket/plug or hard wiring as wiring must be tested as far as possible on the insulation test.

How do you deal with the LED`s in sockets that will throw up odd results?

I dont think it has been said that we must remove appliances but we seem to be getting too hung up on the actual testing which we are all agreed should take around an 1- 1.5 hrs.There is also the visual part,which means digging about in bed lockers, removing drawers etc and hunting out earth bonding.

I understand about limits of inspection but we must inspect as far as is practical without causing damage

 

[Parksy]

I spoke to the guy on the NCC stand on Tuesday and he said that the legislation for 17th edition PIR inspection is already in place but hasn't been implemented properly until engineers and service dept staff had all been trained.

He said that main club sites should start to ask to see valid PIR certificates sometime next year but there is some debate and some site operators argue that their responsibilities end at the ehu bollard.

Basically the NCC rep was saying that it will be up to site operators whether they want to ask for PIR certificates or not but he seemed confident that the two clubs would comply on their main sites.

 

[GeorgeNeil]

Having contributed to a thread on the same subject some months ago on this forum I find it interesting that those who have been gifted the high handed power that the NCC/CITO course bestows go to ground when challenged by those of us who are more technically qualified

Having seen and read the course literature and talked with a mobile engineer who is a good friend and has attended the course, it makes me wonder what level is required to be a "Competant Person" given that to gain a C&G 2391 qualification takes a bit longer than 2 days and requires that you have previously passed the BS 7671 exam

My mobile engineer friend felt this course did not fully cover the subject in enough depth and did not address problems like testing RCD's when the caravan is connected to the customers supply

For the NCC/CITO course to dictate testing procedures in eccess of those required by the regulations only go to prove that the Technical competance of the provider must be questioned

The PIR done correctly should not cost that much and will prove that the caravan electrics are safe rather than abdicate your safety to the site RCD as some seem to do

I think the NCC need to rethink the intrduction of the PIR requirement and Back it up with some proper training for the engineers who are expected to produce the reports

 

[ProfJohnL]

Eu state caravans are tested every year as part of a separate scheme similar to an mot.Wait till that comes to this country, caravans registered and taxed as vehicles in their own right.

To G Stockton, i respect that your knowledge of electrics is far greater than mine, But my understanding is that where possible appliances must be disconnected either by socket/plug or hard wiring as wiring must be tested as far as possible on the insulation test.

How do you deal with the LED`s in sockets that will throw up odd results?

I dont think it has been said that we must remove appliances but we seem to be getting too hung up on the actual testing which we are all agreed should take around an 1- 1.5 hrs.There is also the visual part,which means digging about in bed lockers, removing drawers etc and hunting out earth bonding.

I understand about limits of inspection but we must inspect as far as is practical without causing damage

Hello Dougie,

Just a small point, I seriously doubt that you will find LEDs in socket Neons perhaps

 

[JohnM20]

It's interesting that still no-one has been able to quantify this problem. I challenge the NCC to state exactly how many deaths or injuries there have been due to faulty caravan electrical systems in the last 12 months. Until we know this we can make no valid judgement as to whether the test is worth doing. There is a big difference between possibility and probability as all insurance companies know.

JohnM

 

[Surfer]

It's interesting that still no-one has been able to quantify this problem. I challenge the NCC to state exactly how many deaths or injuries there have been due to faulty caravan electrical systems in the last 12 months.

Why make it the last year? Make it the last 10 years.

 

[Parksy]

I asked the NCC rep at the NEC how many deaths or serious injuries could be attributed to electrical problems in touring caravans.

He couldn't give an answer and the best that he could come up with was that he once witnessed a caravan fire which was caused by an electrical fault.

Incidentally he mentioned that he reads these posts, maybe he would consider joining in and providing some answers to the questions being asked here?

He sidestepped the issue of the NCC treating caravan owners as cash cows by repeating that the legislation affecting caravans was already in place but it hadn't been fully implemented yet.

He said that the legislation is retrospective so owners of caravans built before the 17th edition of the regs would still need to have regular PIR inspections but they would be given some sort of disclaimer.

Basically NCC workshops want to charge owners of older caravans for telling them something that they would already know which is that their caravans do not comply to the 17th edition regs!

I still see it a clever scam to generate some cash for the NCC and it's members to be honest, if they manage to force the two clubs to insist on evidence of PIR inspections they have cracked it.

I was at our C&CC district association a.g.m. last weekend and no one including D.A. committee members had heard anything about this.

I mentioned this to the NCC rep and he assured me that they soon will.

 

[Dustydog]

So the plot thickens. Seems to me the NCC guy that Parksy saw is intent on his organisation seeing this thing through to the bitter end, irrespective of what caravanners have to say.

Retrospective legislation of any sort does not sit comfortably with me.

295 posts on and to the best of my knowledge no one from:-

CC; C&CC; or any other commercial caravan site or CS or CL; the NCC; or any Insurer ( see an earlier post alleging ""his insurers demanded it") has made any comment on here to help simple caravanners like me.

Will there be any reporting of the issue in a future PC mag?

Cheers

Dustydog

 

[BedfordGeorge]

I agree with Dustydog on this one, being no wiser on the subject, despite so many posts. Whilst a magazine is not a newspaper, it is charged with informing people of developments, within thier particular sphere of interest. It seems to me that Nigel Donnelly, or one of his senior reporters should be investigating this, and asking some very pertinent questions of the NCC. The reason I, and I am sure most subscribers to PC pays our money, is to be given information on all aspects of the industry. A job that I generally think they do well, but it will be interesting to see if they look into this situation, and what definitive information they will be able to tell us.

Best regards,

George

 

[Clive-Cardiff]

If the Caravan Club insists that a PIR certificate is shown it will solve the site booking problem overnight.

 

[GStockton]

Dougie. the neon indicator lights in sockets and switch spurs are wired from the switched side, so there is no problem with insulation tests if the appliance is unplugged and an IR test is done with the socket switched on the neon will glow and you will normally see about a 100k ohm resistance on the meter.

So how have you been taught to do a rcd and loop test on a site i.e. customers? where the is presence of another rcd at the mains position ( mobile caravan engineers will then be not qualified to bypass this device to obtain your proper results).

Glenn.