p.i.r inspection

[rayc]

Surely the question that should have been asked of the CC representative was " What level of problems are you having on your sites due to caravans over 3 years old, i.e. those that wouldn't have a valid PIR certificate, causing problems with your electrical supply"?

Why would the NCC or anybody else for that matter ask the CC to Police the PIR scheme? They do not ask you to show your vehicle MOT certificate as a pre-requisit for driving on their sites.

 

[ANTHONYB1]

Hi everyone,Why is it that sense a change of attitude in some of these later posts,are we accepting that this PIR is unstopable.

I will not be letting somebody dismantle my pride and joy,and then try to put it back together again,and then CHARGE me for it.

Anyhow there are lots of sites that are not NCC members that you can use.

Anthony

 

[ProfJohnL]

Something not mentioned to date, (I think anyway), nothing in new regulation has been retrospective in the past?

If you have new wiring in the house it will have the new colours, that already installed under older regulation does not need upgrading/changing to comply unless perhaps what's connected to it is changed, ie, a new electric shower.

Slightly different but towbars changed in 97 nothing before is affected.

So taking your point John, if new regulation is retrospective, alsorts of problems arise, how far do you go back for a start?

Manufactures will say it conformed at the time of manufacture, not their fault then.

To my mind an agreed start date must be sorted out first and new regulation starts from there, everything built before stays as it was.

Having said that, I heard all this at least six years ago, one site owner told me he was going to ask for gas and electric safety certificates for 'insurance purposes, he said 'all site owners will being asking as from next season'

Well next season came and went and this is the first I've heard since!

As for dismantling the van to disconnect appliances, I've never heard anything so daft!!

Hello Gary,

I never said the regulations will be retrospective, I was stating the situation in 2013 when today's caravans will be due their first PIR. But if in 2010 a PIR identifies a dangerous installation then if not the manufacturer the selling dealer would still be liable.

I also quite agree that dismantling the caravan to perform a PIR is fraught with long term problems.

 

[gary]

Hello Gary,

I never said the regulations will be retrospective, I was stating the situation in 2013 when today's caravans will be due their first PIR. But if in 2010 a PIR identifies a dangerous installation then if not the manufacturer the selling dealer would still be liable.

I also quite agree that dismantling the caravan to perform a PIR is fraught with long term problems.

Quote:

..... if it is supposed to be enacted by April, then the vast majority of caravanners will have no time to get the PIR's carried out simply because they take so long (4 hours?) and the workshops who are accredited to do them will be swamped not only with PIR work but the normal seasonal services and repairs.

...................

I was referring to that John and particularly 'vast majority', not said then but it did to me infer or more to the point, made me think of how it can possibly apply retrospectively?

Maybe then that's what's being missed and perhaps why little is being said officially? perhaps all this starts April 2013 for vans built after April 2010?

Now that would begin to make just a little more sense!

 

[Surfer]

I think by now every one has realised that it is a lot of hot air with no basis and that Noddy'scaravan Club are now trying to cover their rear ends.

I wonder why the PC magazine has notr investigated thsi in more details as surely it is a matter of interest for caravanners. Are they going to ask for a PIR certificate at their rallies?

 

[Dustydog]

Gary said

"Having said that, I heard all this at least six years ago, one site owner told me he was going to ask for gas and electric safety certificates for 'insurance purposes, he said 'all site owners will being asking as from next season'"

What's interesting in this piece of hearsay is that an Insurer was /is making this demand on the site owner.

I know for a fact that sometimes Insurance Companies Risk Managers almost invent safety things purely to protect their own jobs.

I am not saying for one minute that PIR is a waste of time but equally if there is truth in what Gary was told can we invite some of the Insurers who advertise in PC to give us their views?

Cheers

Dustydog

 

[forestgump]

may be pc should doe a artical on this in next months mag get some feed back.

 

[TimM]

I note that the NCC has stand No 5297 at the NEC at the end of the month. I for one will be asking them where their evidence is for the frequency of testing, a copy of their risk assessment and evidence and incidence of accidents caused by faulty caravan mains wiring. I would suggest lots of other folk do this too.

Strikes me you are more likely to hurt yourself or someone else hitching up than with an electrical fault so maybe only qualified NCC approved technicians should be allowed to hook up and unhook caravans?

I hate the idea of my caravan being taken to bits to carry out this test. It isn't designed to accommodate this and if the test picks up any faults then I will expect my manufacturer to pick up the tab, as the electrics have not been modified in any way since the caravan was manufactured 4 years ago.

If it is the law that is dictating this and not the NCC then lets see if the clubs and mags can coordinate and organise petitions to 10 Downing Street. This scheme is absolutely ridiculous and someone needs to press the common sense button.

 

[Parksy]

I'm a C&CC member so I contacted our district association Chief Sites Officer Mr Richard South about PIR testing and the statement that valid certificates would have to be produced in order to use ehu's in future.

Richard was good enough to telephone me this evening and he gave his permission to outline the conversation here.

Only last week he attended a meeting at Drayton Manor with full time C&CC officials to discuss issues and instructions for committee members for this year.

The new rules about the storage of LPG bottles was discussed but Richard assured me that no mention whatsoever was made about PIR testing or certification.

If there were any plans to introduce this it would definitely have been discussed or at least mentioned at the regional meeting last week.

The fact that it was not mentioned at all suggests to me that it's a non starter.

Even if the NCC manage to foist these unwanted electrical PIR checks onto caravan owners in the future it would be impossible to apply regulations retrospectively because some caravan design and build methods would probably need to change to facilitate testing of the sort described.

 

[Parksy]

I forgot to add that the National Caravan Council is a limited company with no statutory powers, it is a trade organisation.

Specific legislation affecting caravan safety now exists but I have a strong feeling that NCC Ltd have managed to persuade tradesmen who belong to their organisation to part with sums of money for courses on PIR testing in the hope that it will soon be rigorously 'enforced'.

I'm sorry for those who have shelled out but as I mentioned, it looks like a non starter as far as most of us are concerned.

 

[Surfer]

Thanks for the update. Still no reply to my emails to NCC which I think proves your point that it is a non starter and a lot of tradesmen have been mis-informed.

 

[Heethers]

I too have emailed the NCC for clarification over week ago, still no reply, how many more have done the same.

If their are few maybe they are getting the message or burying their heads in the sand.

 

[Surfer]

Has any one had a reply from the NCC regarding the alleged P.I.R? We are going to the NEC next Friday and will try and find their stand to get some answers. I looked on the Boat & Caravan website but the layour plan is so small that is difficult to locate their stand. Any one else going to do approach them at their stand about the P.I.R?

 

[TimM]

Ian, please see my previous post. NCC has stand No 5297 and yers I will be asking them anout PIR.

 

[Sproket]

I have just had a look at the latest floor plan & well they are just through the door in hall 5 in between Bailey Caravans & the C&CC stand, or if you came down from the motorhomes you would walk into them....

By the time we get there on Friday a bit of luck the ears will be burning.

Floor plan

 

[Steve L]

This business of PIR testing looks to be a farce to be honest.

First of all they state all about 17th edition electrical regs, but only train servce engineers to "competent person" status. That is so that an engineer can't go elsewhere as he is not nationally trained but "in house" trained.

Next. They realy need to get to grips with site supplies first before landing caravanners with extra certification that an average workshop will charge

 

[Surfer]

I have just had a look at the latest floor plan & well they are just through the door in hall 5 in between Bailey Caravans & the C&CC stand, or if you came down from the motorhomes you would walk into them....

By the time we get there on Friday a bit of luck the ears will be burning.

Floor plan

We will be ther on Friday at hopefully 10am! I will be riding a red mobility scooter with a wife in tow.

 

[Surfer]

If I had known earlier I could have organised you with two complimentary tickets. What we realy need is for a couple of us including a qualified sparky who is a caravanner to go to their stand and for the sparky to query the P.I.R. with us adding questions as the opportunity arises.

In addition, we advise them that a few hundred of our mates will be dropping in to ask the same question. Wonder if they will then stay for the duration fo the show.

 

[JohnL]

This business of PIR testing looks to be a farce to be honest.

First of all they state all about 17th edition electrical regs, but only train servce engineers to "competent person" status. That is so that an engineer can't go elsewhere as he is not nationally trained but "in house" trained.

Next. They realy need to get to grips with site supplies first before landing caravanners with extra certification that an average workshop will charge

 

[trucker]

I E Mailed the NCC some 2 weeks ago re this subject to get an answwer from the horses mouth. We the horses mouth is vague as I guessed it would be.

Dear Mr ******,

Please accept my apologies for taking so long to reply.

The NCC is still working on this, in order to completely clear up the issue of PIRs.

A statement will be released shortly that will detail the situation to all concerned: this will be made available through the Caravan Club, Camping and Caravan Club and the caravan press.

Kind regards,

Martin Perman

Technical Officer

National Caravan Council

 

[marlot]

If any site asks me for a PIR, I'll ask them to first show me their electrical inspection certificate, certificate of insurance, etc - after all its the whole system which matters.

Is there anything else I can ask them for, in order to rebalance things???

 

[vernon]

A p.i.r. is only a REPORT, (it's in the title!) which has no legal standing or requirement, other than for your own satisfaction. Whereas the site requires a CERTIFICATE for their part of the supply, which has legal standing, so the site may open up a "can of worms" for themselves if they insist on a p.i.r.

 

[Surfer]

Vernon a very valid point!

 

[GStockton]

Vernon you are right it is a report,but on the first page of the report it states is the "installation in a satisfactory or unsatisfactory condition". A unsatisfactory PIR will then contravene the Electricity at work regulations 1989 which is a legal document.

BS 7671 2008 says any code 2 items on a report will make the installation unsatisfactory.unlike BS 7671 amended 2004 which allows the inspector to give a satisfactory report and still list a code 2

Yes I do inspection and testing for a living and train testers. it would take me around a hour to test and inspect a caravan without dismantling etc. The NCC training course which suggests 4 hours in my opinion simply does not know what they are doing.

 

[dougie_374468830]

Can i ask how you do the test without dismantling?