this is the final nail in the coffin for us, caravanning has just become way too expensive now. ive said for quite a few years that the cost is too high and now this on top of
I'm sorry Dougie.
"Common sense" doesn't work. as soon as there are two opinions about what constitutes the "common" part, it is no longer common.
Please substitute "Good sense" for "common sense"
i think the only way to move forward is for everyone reading or posting to this thread need to contact the NCC. then to ask for a full and frank explanation for the need for PIR`s.
caravanners, repairers and dealers do not whole heartedly agree with how the NCC have handled the whole situation. repairers and dealers are all being tarred as scaremongers and money grabbing "you know whats" because we are the ones customer facing, trying to explain why this is needed and where it has come from.
this is a situation that i will probably be opting out of because of all the bad feelings. i will however perform a PIR at the customers request but i refuse to educated and advertise the service. all the magazines should be publicising the PIR, but i suspect that not everyone within the trade is supporting it.
i believe that at this point in time neither the CC or C&CC will be asking for the reports. so my question is, why if no-one is requesting it, are we doing it?
we have to be realistic that times are hard and why would i want to willingly upset more customers by "forcing" another cost if no-one supports or polices it.
caravanners, repairers and dealers do not whole heartedly agree with how the NCC have handled the whole situation. repairers and dealers are all being tarred as scaremongers and money grabbing "you know whats" because we are the ones customer facing, trying to explain why this is needed and where it has come from.
this is a situation that i will probably be opting out of because of all the bad feelings. i will however perform a PIR at the customers request but i refuse to educated and advertise the service. all the magazines should be publicising the PIR, but i suspect that not everyone within the trade is supporting it.
i believe that at this point in time neither the CC or C&CC will be asking for the reports. so my question is, why if no-one is requesting it, are we doing it?
we have to be realistic that times are hard and why would i want to willingly upset more customers by "forcing" another cost if no-one supports or polices it.
Ian
Surely it is better to have found the fault, than not found it and your van being the death of someone.
I must agree with Reads comments though.
Surely it is better to have found the fault, than not found it and your van being the death of someone.
I must agree with Reads comments though.
Damian
Moderator
I fully agree with Reads Caravans and also think that everyone should contact the NCC and keep contacting them until they make a public announcement.
It is a shambles and one which I, along with other caravan businesses are taking the flack for a system which is suddenly being imposed with no real thought of the economic climate or the feelings of folk who are paying out a lot of money for a van which should at LEAST conform to the current regulations.
Whilst I understand Dougies' post, until I see irrefutable evidence of deaths in caravans due to faulty wiring I am stil to be convinced that it is needed in the format being forced upon us.
It is a shambles and one which I, along with other caravan businesses are taking the flack for a system which is suddenly being imposed with no real thought of the economic climate or the feelings of folk who are paying out a lot of money for a van which should at LEAST conform to the current regulations.
Whilst I understand Dougies' post, until I see irrefutable evidence of deaths in caravans due to faulty wiring I am stil to be convinced that it is needed in the format being forced upon us.
Damien I have contacted the NCC on two different occasions regarding this matter and they steadfastly refuse to even comment or answer any emails so it is my guess that they have realised that they have made one hell of a boob and have now gone into hiding.
Damian
Moderator
Hi everyone,I,ve e mailed them as well.No reply yet,everyone should e Mail them,over load their puter for their troublesome meddlesome ways. ha ha
Anthony
Anthony
this was a statement made in Nov 2008 on another forum, discussing the caravan trades lack of training and qualifications for technicians working on electrics. things have moved on since.
Portable hook up units are available for tents.Does it mean these need to be tested ?. It all sounds like an unworkable lot of nonsense to me .Have been using hook ups for over 30 years never had a problem or heard of anyone else having one.I think its all a lot of scare mongering crap.
Hello David,
If the proposal goes though and sites do start asking for PIR's, then yes the power lines for tents would also need to be covered for exactly the same safety reasons.
However I suspect that all that may be necessary is a PAT regime with possibly a test for the RCD and MCB's rather than a full PIR. We will have to wait and see. My guess is that it shodl not cost more than about
If the proposal goes though and sites do start asking for PIR's, then yes the power lines for tents would also need to be covered for exactly the same safety reasons.
However I suspect that all that may be necessary is a PAT regime with possibly a test for the RCD and MCB's rather than a full PIR. We will have to wait and see. My guess is that it shodl not cost more than about
Hello everyone,Whats the bet that as soon as this thread dies,the NCC with crawl back out of the woodwork.
Anthony.
Anthony.
You woudl have thought that by now they would have had the courtesy to answer one of my two emails.
I am now of the opinion that they have misled every one on the 17th Edition and are in hiding hoping that the issue will go away.
I just feel sorry for those people that have paid all that money to get a qualification that they cannot really use to its full potential even though any qualification helped their career. In other words it so going to take longer to recoup their outlay.
I am now of the opinion that they have misled every one on the 17th Edition and are in hiding hoping that the issue will go away.
I just feel sorry for those people that have paid all that money to get a qualification that they cannot really use to its full potential even though any qualification helped their career. In other words it so going to take longer to recoup their outlay.
Just as suggestion here.
The NCC is funded by contributions of its members who are manufacturers and suppliers to the caravan industry.
If the NCC are not willing to answer your questions, post your questions to the NCC's paymasters pointing out that their organisation (the NCC) is not representing the best interests of the industry, by failing to offer clarity to their instructions.
The NCC is funded by contributions of its members who are manufacturers and suppliers to the caravan industry.
If the NCC are not willing to answer your questions, post your questions to the NCC's paymasters pointing out that their organisation (the NCC) is not representing the best interests of the industry, by failing to offer clarity to their instructions.
Mr Read said
"believe that at this point in time neither the CC or C&CC will be asking for the reports. so my question is, why if no-one is requesting it, are we doing it?"
The OP stated that he had been informed by his mobile servicer that the CC would soon require a Certificate before allowing access to a EHU.
I think it's time for the two Clubs to make it crystal clear exactly their position on this subject.
It's driving me barking mad!
Cheers
Dustydog
"believe that at this point in time neither the CC or C&CC will be asking for the reports. so my question is, why if no-one is requesting it, are we doing it?"
The OP stated that he had been informed by his mobile servicer that the CC would soon require a Certificate before allowing access to a EHU.
I think it's time for the two Clubs to make it crystal clear exactly their position on this subject.
It's driving me barking mad!
Cheers
Dustydog
"The OP stated that he had been informed by his mobile servicer that the CC would soon require a Certificate before allowing access to a EHU"
This is starting to sound like "I heard it from a friend who heard it from a mate of his uncle who overheard a chap in the pub......."
All the info on pir is supposed to be released by the ncc to the clubs by April, I was told this by CITO last year so i am awaiting the mad rush.
Hello Dougie,
I'm not disputing what you are telling us, but if the inference is that by April all CC sites and others will be asking for the PIR certificate then I think the organisations have shot themselves in both feet.
You point out; if it is supposed to be enacted by April, then the vast majority of caravanners will have no time to get the PIR's carried out simply because they take so long (4 hours?) and the workshops who are accredited to do them will be swamped not only with PIR work but the normal seasonal services and repairs.
It does not help that the organisations involved have failed to make the caravanning public aware of the situation or of what is involved and the cost.
It is also clear from this thread, that even within the industry there are some who find the problem has not been quantified, the general knowledge of the caravanners who post here (and on other sites) seems to suggest the level of incidence involving contravening the electrical regulation the PIR is supposed to detect is both very low and the consequences have been minimal. How many caravans have had systems that would not be approved to connect to a mains supply, and how many of those have caused injury or loss? So where is the risk assessment? Is the proposal a disproportionate response to a problem that has not been defined? Sledge hammer to crack a nut seems to be a very apt analogy.
The risk assessment needs to be defined and published otherwise its going to be another committee derived matter like the 85% towing ratio, the 7% nose load, which are misleading, often impractical and out dated.
Then of course there is the issue that if an installation is failed at its first PIR (after three years) due to a manufacturing design fault, who is responsible? And who pays to have it corrected? I suspect that the manufacturers are concerned with probability that they will be facing repair bills for their incorrect installations - and the possibility that consumers may be considering suing manufactures for placing them in danger as a result of the work that they sign off, on their production lines electrical completion certificates.
If the requirement for a PIR type test and certificate is to be rolled out, then the whole process needs to be re-planned with proper timely information supplied and consultation with the caravanning public, not the 'fait accompli' approach that seems to have been used.
Personally I agree with the principal that all trailers should be reviewed regularly for safety issues, (running gear, gas, electrics etc) and be issued with an insurance certificate of some kind - rather like an MOT.
I'm not disputing what you are telling us, but if the inference is that by April all CC sites and others will be asking for the PIR certificate then I think the organisations have shot themselves in both feet.
You point out; if it is supposed to be enacted by April, then the vast majority of caravanners will have no time to get the PIR's carried out simply because they take so long (4 hours?) and the workshops who are accredited to do them will be swamped not only with PIR work but the normal seasonal services and repairs.
It does not help that the organisations involved have failed to make the caravanning public aware of the situation or of what is involved and the cost.
It is also clear from this thread, that even within the industry there are some who find the problem has not been quantified, the general knowledge of the caravanners who post here (and on other sites) seems to suggest the level of incidence involving contravening the electrical regulation the PIR is supposed to detect is both very low and the consequences have been minimal. How many caravans have had systems that would not be approved to connect to a mains supply, and how many of those have caused injury or loss? So where is the risk assessment? Is the proposal a disproportionate response to a problem that has not been defined? Sledge hammer to crack a nut seems to be a very apt analogy.
The risk assessment needs to be defined and published otherwise its going to be another committee derived matter like the 85% towing ratio, the 7% nose load, which are misleading, often impractical and out dated.
Then of course there is the issue that if an installation is failed at its first PIR (after three years) due to a manufacturing design fault, who is responsible? And who pays to have it corrected? I suspect that the manufacturers are concerned with probability that they will be facing repair bills for their incorrect installations - and the possibility that consumers may be considering suing manufactures for placing them in danger as a result of the work that they sign off, on their production lines electrical completion certificates.
If the requirement for a PIR type test and certificate is to be rolled out, then the whole process needs to be re-planned with proper timely information supplied and consultation with the caravanning public, not the 'fait accompli' approach that seems to have been used.
Personally I agree with the principal that all trailers should be reviewed regularly for safety issues, (running gear, gas, electrics etc) and be issued with an insurance certificate of some kind - rather like an MOT.
Vernon
257 posts and I'm still not clear who's saying or asking or demanding what?
I'm just a very simple caravanner!
Cheers
Dustydog
Something not mentioned to date, (I think anyway), nothing in new regulation has been retrospective in the past?
If you have new wiring in the house it will have the new colours, that already installed under older regulation does not need upgrading/changing to comply unless perhaps what's connected to it is changed, ie, a new electric shower.
Slightly different but towbars changed in 97 nothing before is affected.
So taking your point John, if new regulation is retrospective, alsorts of problems arise, how far do you go back for a start?
Manufactures will say it conformed at the time of manufacture, not their fault then.
To my mind an agreed start date must be sorted out first and new regulation starts from there, everything built before stays as it was.
Having said that, I heard all this at least six years ago, one site owner told me he was going to ask for gas and electric safety certificates for 'insurance purposes, he said 'all site owners will being asking as from next season'
Well next season came and went and this is the first I've heard since!
As for dismantling the van to disconnect appliances, I've never heard anything so daft!!
If you have new wiring in the house it will have the new colours, that already installed under older regulation does not need upgrading/changing to comply unless perhaps what's connected to it is changed, ie, a new electric shower.
Slightly different but towbars changed in 97 nothing before is affected.
So taking your point John, if new regulation is retrospective, alsorts of problems arise, how far do you go back for a start?
Manufactures will say it conformed at the time of manufacture, not their fault then.
To my mind an agreed start date must be sorted out first and new regulation starts from there, everything built before stays as it was.
Having said that, I heard all this at least six years ago, one site owner told me he was going to ask for gas and electric safety certificates for 'insurance purposes, he said 'all site owners will being asking as from next season'
Well next season came and went and this is the first I've heard since!
As for dismantling the van to disconnect appliances, I've never heard anything so daft!!
i have asked the AWS and NCC to publish the information regarding PIR`s. i have also informed them that if the PIR is going to be demanded by the clubs, that there should be a 12 month run-in in period. this is so they advertise the PIR and state from april 2011 for example, all sites will request it. this give all caravanners, and testers time to prepare. it also give dealers the opportunity to comply with the PIR when selling used caravans.
if it is true, that the clubs will be asking for it in april, there will be a huge amount of unhappy customers who have bought caravans from dealers in 2009 who won`t have a PIR. and this is simply because dealers were not even aware of a PIR until Nov 09.
having spoke to a representative of the CC in coventry, they have told me that at this point (which was 26th Jan) they will not be asking for PIR`s. i suggested that if their club sites asked for a PIR, and the customer couldn`t provide one, then the customer would be taking their business elsewhere. so i suggested that PIR`s do not make any commercial sense to the CC sites. he didn`t argue with me.
if it is true, that the clubs will be asking for it in april, there will be a huge amount of unhappy customers who have bought caravans from dealers in 2009 who won`t have a PIR. and this is simply because dealers were not even aware of a PIR until Nov 09.
having spoke to a representative of the CC in coventry, they have told me that at this point (which was 26th Jan) they will not be asking for PIR`s. i suggested that if their club sites asked for a PIR, and the customer couldn`t provide one, then the customer would be taking their business elsewhere. so i suggested that PIR`s do not make any commercial sense to the CC sites. he didn`t argue with me.
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