Politics and Religion

[colin-yorkshire]

hi all

while I would probably be the one of the first to congratulate and support the moderators on this forum for their efforts in keeping the trolls at bay and the even handedness that they approach their job, (I have been on here a long time and remember the old days of biased heavy moderating that led to many bans and an exodus of members to other forums.

I must say that the latest attempt to stiffle any topical discussion of a political or news worthy nature unwellcome as I write this the most topical items in the news is about the BNP and a popular TV program. and the postal strike it is talked about everywhere but apparently no longer wellcome on here.

Many items of news can in fact be linked to us as caravanners like the price of fuel, type of tow car (as long as it is not mentioned how many drive wheels it has), or the fact that joe public can't tell the difference between a large tourer and a home for an ethnic minority group (that allegedly causes some problems now and again). well thats fine but if the only burning issue of the day is the weight of a motor mover we are all doomed.

maybe haymarket should rename the forum "Caravan Talk" or "Caravan World" as a better discription of accepable topics to post about, but seeing as these are allready out there with limited members and few posts this may not be such a good idea after all.

if we as members can only post about caravan related issues lets do just that and be happy, as for myself the van is tucked up in bed (in a heated garage) cleaned drained and serviced waiting for the spring to arrive, "no van issues to discuss or worry about) so I might as well just log off for the winter and come back in the spring and if any major event happens in the meantime. log on to somewhere that is actually talking about it because on here it will not be.

colin.

 

[Soozeeg]

But Colin, caravan-related stuff and political or newsworthy topics are not the only things to talk about, and Parksy clearly never meant that we can ONLY discuss caravan related issues. You're being a bit pedantic if you choose to read it that way - no offence intended.

The sub-title of this forum says (as some people have already insisted on pointing out) that it's for Non-caravan issues: Jokes, Trivia, Gossip.

Well, I can't think of any jokes, it's too early and my brain is still a bit confused as to what time it is. As for trivia, how about this: Apparently apples are more effective at keeping people awake in the mornings than caffeine (obviously I should be eating an apple then, rather than sitting here with a large mug of extra strong coffee).

Gossip........well, as it happens, a little bird told me the other day.........umm, actually, I think I might keep that little nugget to myself, for the time being anyway ;-)

This ChitChat forum could and should be for a little LIGHT entertainment, I'm sure we can all manage that.

 

[colin-yorkshire]

hi sooze

me offended never so don't worry, as for my post being a bit pedantic yes it was supposed to be and a little tongue in cheek and was prompted by parksy's opening post ie;- " 03:49 PM

There is a growing and worrying trend for posts with political views, comments about various religions and rants about welfare benefits etc to be submitted to the Practical Caravan forum.

The clue is in the name.

There is more than likely a Practical Politics forum, I have no idea and can't be bothered to find out.

One thing's for sure, this ain't it!

Please take your politics, social comment, carpet chewing foaming at the mouth newspaper article derivative posts and shove 'em where the sun doesn't shine because we don't want them on here."

sounds pretty clear to me if this forum is for and about caravans fine, I can live with that it will make for a boring and somewhat quite forum though perhaps that is the point and I have missed it.

I for one do find the constant anti government barrage a little tiring at times, especialy when it is all one sided and left to go on and on and on and only checked when someone posts a contradictory view. ie when an arguement starts if all posts of this nature are deleted from the start then I for one will be quite happy but I doubt if that will happen.

we will have to wait and see.

colin

 

[ShadySadie]

As the UK has been and is still on the verge of bankruptcy there will not be much caravanning going on if that happens.

Is it any wonder that we get posts about the fools we now have in power.

The country seems more divided rather than the multicultural eutopia melting pot Labour politicians seem to think we live in.

According to popular press polls Griffins veiws are shared by a majority of voters who vote for Tories and Labour.

If the politicians don't listen to what people believe and think and you can't "chit chat" about it what's the world coming to?

Caravanners and others pay higher insurance premiums that cover the "rogues" who steal caravans and cover those who come to our land with no licence and drive uninsured. We are fit to pay for those who do not believe in our laws, local practices and common decency but we are the ones who get censored and are slapped on the legs should we not address them with a PC name.

I seemed to have missed something!

Money's tight I thought and more people are unemployed or losing jobs and savings and pensions are suffering and disposable income is reducing, that funds caravanning for most people.

But now a caravan forum is the wrong place to comment or chit chat about it, grow up, it's only a forum.

 

[colin-yorkshire]

As the UK has been and is still on the verge of bankruptcy there will not be much caravanning going on if that happens.

Is it any wonder that we get posts about the fools we now have in power.

The country seems more divided rather than the multicultural eutopia melting pot Labour politicians seem to think we live in.

According to popular press polls Griffins veiws are shared by a majority of voters who vote for Tories and Labour.

If the politicians don't listen to what people believe and think and you can't "chit chat" about it what's the world coming to?

Caravanners and others pay higher insurance premiums that cover the "rogues" who steal caravans and cover those who come to our land with no licence and drive uninsured. We are fit to pay for those who do not believe in our laws, local practices and common decency but we are the ones who get censored and are slapped on the legs should we not address them with a PC name.

I seemed to have missed something!

Money's tight I thought and more people are unemployed or losing jobs and savings and pensions are suffering and disposable income is reducing, that funds caravanning for most people.

But now a caravan forum is the wrong place to comment or chit chat about it, grow up, it's only a forum.

well then we did not have to wait long did we? I reckon about 55mins but perhaps all the mods are tucked up in bed not like us night owls or is that me being pedantic again.

 

[Soozeeg]

Oh, I give up!

Sorry Mods, I did try to keep things lighthearted on here, but others clearly don't want to. Sorry, but I can't be bothered with it anymore, you mods have my sympathies.

 

[Gumbo]

It's from one very overworked and completely P****d off forum moderator who is more than ready to delete the next flame topic that appears on this forum no matter who submits it.

Why do mods feel they have to intervene if people are (strongly)differing in their views. Would you step in between two adults fighting in the street?? On the last spat who was it being offended or hurt? certainly not Gumbo, or LB, or Colin.

You only overwork yourself, we just get fed up and move onto the next topic. Like it looks like the last think tank has decided we need to increase fuel duty again to save the planet, not build the Severn Barrage for free energy forever.

 

[Parksy]

Gumbo Wrote:

'? On the last spat who was it being offended or hurt? certainly not Gumbo, or LB, or Colin.

You only overwork yourself, we just get fed up and move onto the next topic.'

Gumbo, LB or Colin might not be the ones who are offended or hurt. Other forum members certainly are. You will reply that they don't have to read or take part in your discussions.

The wider membership of this forum shouldn't have to make the choice in the first place, they thought that by using Practical Caravan forum that they had joined a forum to do with caravans.

Whilst you are fed up and move to the next topic members who don't want to use this forum as a political soapbox get fed up and move on to another forum.

The mods intervene when people submit posts containing strongly differing political views because the protracted feuding and points scoring does offend other members and drives them away.

This heavy political comment and opinion doesn't feature in the Practical Caravan magazine so why would it feature on the Practical Caravan forum?

Find a website or forum that is set up to deal with the debates and arguments that you seem determined to post on to this caravan forum, you will be left alone to be as opinionated as you wish on such a website.

This is a caravan forum and will remain so.

 

[ShadySadie]

As caravanners we have to be motorists, unless somebody has a secret I don't know about.

The first news headline I've seen today reads

"MOTORISTS would be forced to find an extra

 

[Thorpedo]

Shadie Sadie

Fully agree with your posting that the economy and politics affects every part of our lives including our Caravan Hobby so I don't see any reason why sensible discussion should be stifled.

Obviously agree with the mods that when things get vitriolic the posts or the topic may need to be put to bed.

If P.C. doesn't want chit chat why have the section the section?

Soozeeg has the right idea saying she 'can't be bothered..' if you don't like a particular topic don't read it but don't chastise others who have different interests you your own. !

 

[butler1]

Sorry to interrupt, but who's round is it?

 

[colin-yorkshire]

hi parksy

I have said twice now and this is the last time I will say it,

if you want a caravan only related forum THATS FINE WITH ME. but there is no use just posturing about it lets see the sword in action.

I like many other users of this forum contribute to other forums, some political some subgect related where the political content is non existant these do not have a chit chat section at all no jokes no current affairs nothing just posts about the main subject matter however these forums are usually very quiet with only 2 or 3 posts a day.

general forums however are a completely different animal very vibrant and busy with some comments that could wound a rhino, the posters on here are very mild indeed by comparison.

if the mods and haymarket want this forum only to be caravan related site so be it lets stick to the "weight of a mover" I mentioned earlier with the sword of deletion used every time one of those dirty words like politics are uttered.

but you know what I will make a prediction it won't happen it is just posturing by you mods to tone down some of the debates the anti government un politically correct religious biased posts will continue as long as they stay one sided with no objections.

go on prove me wrong.

colin.

ps does anyone know how to get the dust caps off a alko hub without destroying them. (caravan related topic) he he O

 

[VIP640]

Dust cap removal, take your outfit down to the greenbelt land that was recently turned into site. Ask the gentlemen there to do it for you, while you are waiting you can discuss religion and politics....

 

[butler1]

You could die of thirst here.

 

[Parksy]

I had been trying to avoid the appearance of playing to the gallery or 'posturing' if you like.

Obviously there will be those who very strongly disagree with what I have stated and who would like the opportunity to say so publicly on this forum.

I've tried to avoid intervening in this process, I don't wish to be seen to be trying to 'shout down' the views of those who disagree with me which is why I've left this thread alone as far as was possible.

I'm certainly not in the business of deleting forum posts submitted by those who strongly oppose my standpoint and I've tried to avoid 'becoming the debate'. I couldn't reasonably expect everyone to fully agree with me and their points of view deserve to be aired without interference from me.

My point should be seen as giving notice and fair warning, I wouldn't act retrospectively and take the 'sword' to posts that already exist on the forum but I am attempting to outline the position that will be adopted if and when the extreme opinions start to surface from now on.

I'll try if I may to answer a few points raised.

There are very many things which affect caravanners, a lot of them may well stem from government policy, constraints imposed by political correctness and bias of various persuasions.

General discussion ought to be fine but the problem is that all too often these generalities start to descend into feuds between various opinion holders and posts can and do appear which really start to cross the boundaries of acceptable forum behaviour.

Just one example.

I've seen threads which have started off as discussions about caravan security ending up with posts advocating genocide for the travelling community.

I don't doubt that some things are supposed to be taken as a joke but some jokes are in very poor taste indeed.

It's all very well asking us to 'grow up' but unfortunately there are those amongst us (not necessarily present in this discussion) who completely lose their sense of self awareness when engaged in heated forum exchanges.

The stereotyping of minorities, the posts that actually incite racial or religious hatred, the posts that foist one political viewpoint on others and those who wish to use the forum as their soapbox for these purposes flow thick and fast and in the meantime forum members who don't wish to be associated with some of the sentiments go elsewhere.

We have long bemoaned the perceived lack of investment in this forum.

It would be extremely difficult to loosen the Haymarket purse strings in order to provide a newer and better platform for those who advocate extreme political policies, those who class single parents as 'scroungers' or those who advocate genocide.

The forum is at times vibrant and if the price of it continuing to be vibrant is the sort of political and social rhetoric that has recently begun to appear I'm afraid that the price is too high to pay.

In one sense Colin is correct when he wrote that posts need to be 'toned down'.

I'm not becoming embroiled in a 'who said what' discussion or taking sides.

Like everyone else I hold political views and opinions about various issues but I don't discuss them on a caravan forum because that is not the most appropriate place to discuss them.

I don't see heavy political and social comment openly on other caravan forums and this one is no different.

I provided some information about Andrew Golby's email address previously.

Andrew has moved to a new position within Haymarket Publishing where we wish him well.

The administrator of this forum is Victoria (Tori) Hanson, the moderators answer to her for their actions and her email address is:

Victoria.Hanson@haymarket.com

As I stated previously if further clarification of the forum position is required this can be obtained from the management of this forum via Tori Hanson.

 

[colin(bridgend)]

Personally I do not see any harm in discussing political/relious/sexual topics on this forum as long as the discussion remains on a general format and does not become personal attacks on individuals and thereby causing offence. Over the years there have been instances where a moderator has stepped in because one contributer is having a personal slanging match with another and it is becoming very heated and digressing from the original topic being discussed.

We all have views be they right or wrong on religion, sex and politics. Who am I to say my thoughts are correct and you lot are wrong. I have made quite a few friends on this forum and many I now contact direct via e-mails. I have never had any intention of causing any bitterness between myself and any contributer if their viewpoint is different to mine.

I therefore think that these topics should be still open for discussion here on the assumption that no contributer makes any personal hurtful comment about another should they differ in their opinions of life. If it does enter into a personal slanging match then yes the moderaters have every right to step in and more power to their elbow.

 

[Guest]

I think it is valid to state that Haymarket do not just run this Forum out of the goodness of their heart. They do it because they see it as a conduit to increasing their commercial operations, either through subscriptions or through sales via the advertisers who in turn contribute to the Haymarket revenue stream. So, their objective is to maximise their exposure, and therefore attraction to all potential customers, and so have to balance between driving away those potential customers who are put off by any aggressive correspondence, and those who feel that without it, the Forum is not worth looking at, and by connection, Haymarket are not worth interest. Only Haymarket can tell if their revenue streams reflect any relation to vigorous discussions, or otherwise. If they feel it is the former, that is the quieter ones, who are the dominant customer base, then the answer is easy. Shut down all Forum sections except those to do with purely caravan matters, and restrict them to virtual question and answer sessions. If they feel it is the latter, that is the 'noisy ones' or are unable to determine if any are relevant, then they probably have to accept the risk and allow a reasonable amount of non caravan discussion. Of course losing any potential customer is not desirable. I personally feel that trying to separate pure caravan discussion from any other is a bit like Canute trying to control the sea. People just do not work that way.

If this latter situation where non caravan discussion is accepted, then the role of the Moderator is obviously crucial in maintaining a balance between reasonable freedom of speech and abhorrent behaviour, and I may suggest that in my opinion allowing the Moderators to become publically known and also allowing them to participate in discussions, can lead to issues, which are neither fair to them, nor to other members. It becomes very difficult for a Moderator to remain neutral, with the best will in the world, when their opinions are becoming common knowledge. When the identity of a Moderator is unknown then he/she can be replaced at any time to give anyone who has had a 'hard time' a welcome respite, and no one is ever the wiser. It also relieves the Moderator of any feelings of 'having to explain his/her actions'. Moderators can also then participate in discussions as independent members without conflict of interest, whether actual or just perceived. This was the situation a while back on this Forum, and although I expect some feel it was a good move to allow Moderators to become known, I personally feel the disadvantages outweighed the advantages. Anonymity is a blessing in these situations.

To date Haymarket have operated a 'hands off' strategy with regard to the Forum, allowing the Moderators to use their own judgement. That is probably very wise as any perceived 'editorial control' would undoubtedly lead to reduced activity on the Forum, and the knock on effects as mentioned above. From comments it would appear that this Forum is one of the most popular in the camping and caravanning fraternity, probably because of the diversity it offers. Of course there will always be people who find any given situation 'unacceptable' and leave in high dudgeon, but that occurs in all walks of life. Living and surmounting adversity is what makes us human.

Here endeth the lesson....

 

[chillidave]

Scotch Lad were you a barrister in another life,I was bloody knackered reading that.

 

[Guest]

I always assumed that the magazines journo's use the forum to get a feel for what makes carvanners tick and what they are intersted in.

So are we to be portrayed as doddery old folk zimmering our way between car and caravan driving as slow as poss to annoy others or as a wide mix of people with a wide range of interests including religion and politics?

If PC magazines mission is that all caravanners know and take a lowly position in society and have little or no social conscience or interest in political mis-management that compromises our bank balances and caravan liesure time.

Then may be they are failing their readers and we should be looking for a more politically aware magazine that will do a little towards protecting our interest as well as listening to what makes their readers tick.

 

[Parksy]

Scotch Lad makes some good points and some that I'm not in full agreement with.

Haymarket do indeed see this forum as a commercial venture because they are a commercial publishing company. The forum is intended to provide a voice for readers of the Practical Caravan magazine and if potential members also take out magazine subscriptions the commercial aspect of the forum is fulfilled.

My points appear to have been taken to mean that caravan issues and only caravan issues can be discussed on the forum.

That is not the case and would be impossible and unrealistic to expect only caravans and nothing else to appear on this or any forum.

Having said that, how many articles featuring the BNP, benefit fraud, travellers, teachers being disciplined, bullying by black supervisors at work has anyone noticed in any caravan magazine anywhere in the UK?

Answers anyone??

Thought not.

Please let me know the name of this 'more politically aware' caravan magazine which has been mentioned when it is found, it would make interesting reading as would it's circulation figures.

All of the topics mentioned above have appeared on this forum within the past week or so.These topics would not appear in any article or letters page of any caravan magazine that I've ever read.

Moderators provide some editorial guidance for this forum and they do so in consultation with Haymarket through admin.

We do indeed try to be fairly 'hands off' in our approach but there comes a point when some intervention becomes inevitable.

If intervention by moderators to curb some of the excesses such as I described results in reduced forum activity so be it.

There is some activity that we'd rather do without thanks all the same.

I requested that the forum moderators become publicly known on this forum. Credit for this idea actually belongs to Lord Braykewynde but I agreed with him when he suggested that in past times anonymity of mods caused them to be depersonalised and remote.

I'm known and have email contact occasionally with various forum members on different issues from time to time.I've met and enjoyed the company of members of this forum.

If I make a decision which affects the members I try whenever possible to contact those affected to exchange views on what I have done and at least offer some explanation.

I haven't always been right and I've also contacted those who might have been 'wronged' by me to offer an apology.

No one as far as I'm aware really knows what my views are on any subject that might be contentious on a caravan related forum.

I try hard to remain objective and detached and not to impose my values on anyone else through my work as a moderator.

By being identifiable if I did try to impose my politics for example I would be immediately called to account by forum members and most likely the administrators of the forum.

I keep the same identity on any caravan forum that I use, it wouldn't be good practice to stir up controversy in one place and delete it in another.

I caught myself straying into this area a while ago and resolved never to be in a similar position again.

This is why in my opinion moderators of this particular forum with it's commercial interests and unique position as a commercial enterprise should be identifiable.

I am trying hard to explain and justify what I have written and am happy to discuss forum policy but once again I must strongly emphasise that the heavy political stuff such as in the examples that I have given will not remain in the future.

 

[ValA.]

Scotch Lad makes some good points and some that I'm not in full agreement with.

Haymarket do indeed see this forum as a commercial venture because they are a commercial publishing company. The forum is intended to provide a voice for readers of the Practical Caravan magazine and if potential members also take out magazine subscriptions the commercial aspect of the forum is fulfilled.

My points appear to have been taken to mean that caravan issues and only caravan issues can be discussed on the forum.

That is not the case and would be impossible and unrealistic to expect only caravans and nothing else to appear on this or any forum.

Having said that, how many articles featuring the BNP, benefit fraud, travellers, teachers being disciplined, bullying by black supervisors at work has anyone noticed in any caravan magazine anywhere in the UK?

Answers anyone??

Thought not.

Please let me know the name of this 'more politically aware' caravan magazine which has been mentioned when it is found, it would make interesting reading as would it's circulation figures.

All of the topics mentioned above have appeared on this forum within the past week or so.These topics would not appear in any article or letters page of any caravan magazine that I've ever read.

Moderators provide some editorial guidance for this forum and they do so in consultation with Haymarket through admin.

We do indeed try to be fairly 'hands off' in our approach but there comes a point when some intervention becomes inevitable.

If intervention by moderators to curb some of the excesses such as I described results in reduced forum activity so be it.

There is some activity that we'd rather do without thanks all the same.

I requested that the forum moderators become publicly known on this forum. Credit for this idea actually belongs to Lord Braykewynde but I agreed with him when he suggested that in past times anonymity of mods caused them to be depersonalised and remote.

I'm known and have email contact occasionally with various forum members on different issues from time to time.I've met and enjoyed the company of members of this forum.

If I make a decision which affects the members I try whenever possible to contact those affected to exchange views on what I have done and at least offer some explanation.

I haven't always been right and I've also contacted those who might have been 'wronged' by me to offer an apology.

No one as far as I'm aware really knows what my views are on any subject that might be contentious on a caravan related forum.

I try hard to remain objective and detached and not to impose my values on anyone else through my work as a moderator.

By being identifiable if I did try to impose my politics for example I would be immediately called to account by forum members and most likely the administrators of the forum.

I keep the same identity on any caravan forum that I use, it wouldn't be good practice to stir up controversy in one place and delete it in another.

I caught myself straying into this area a while ago and resolved never to be in a similar position again.

This is why in my opinion moderators of this particular forum with it's commercial interests and unique position as a commercial enterprise should be identifiable.

I am trying hard to explain and justify what I have written and am happy to discuss forum policy but once again I must strongly emphasise that the heavy political stuff such as in the examples that I have given will not remain in the future.

Well said Steve - doesn't it say something that despite your plea for sense, that this topic still remains top of the agenda!

Where are the jokes, trivia and gossip mentioned in the Forum title?

Come on everyone, let's lighten up a little. Life can be fun after all - we caravanners know what good times we can have! Let's show everyone else that we don't need 'heavy subjects' to make a forum worthy of the discussion.

 

[Guest]

Steves version

"Please let me know the name of this 'more politically aware' caravan magazine which has been mentioned when it is found"

One wat i rote urlier!

"Then may be they are failing their readers and we should be looking for a more politically aware magazine that will do a little towards protecting our interest as well as listening to what makes their readers tick"

There is a difference to what you've turned it to Steve and what I actaully wrote!

Your doing just the same as what your complaining about in some threads.

As peoples finances come under more and more pressure and they feel their way of life is threatened they may be more interested in PC or some other magazine challenging political dictats that leave them with less in their pockets.

Articles on new size containers for aquaquem, new range of colours for awning pegs or the choice of plastic or metal plate racks for durability could be the thing that drive away penny aware caravanners as they struggle to continue funding their interest.

If many more lose jobs and the tax's treble for road use to pay for the current borrowing who will continue buying caravan magazines?

Nigel and his fellow PC journalists may be out of a job if they don't keep up to speed with how caravnners incomes are being eroded.

 

[ShadySadie]

From you post Steve I think you are missing out the success of the forum.

People here think they are amongst like minded people with a vast array of experience so they ask questions on a wide range of subjects. Some people meet in the pub after work and ask general questions to gain advice, some also air there views over matters in the news that concern them.

PC have created a meeting place with the forum the same as people meeting on a caravan site.

 

[Parksy]

Point accepted Euro

What you meant was that you want the Practical Caravan magazine to become more politically aware.

I haven't tried to turn anything deliberately,the facts speak for themselves.

I can't imagine any caravan magazine featuring articles containing items such as I described and which have appeared in the past week within this Chit Chat section of the forum.

It's not my job to decide what appears in the Practical Caravan or any other magazine but it's part of my job or at least task which is entrusted to me to try to make sure that this particular caravan forum stays within certain guidelines laid down by Haymarket as a template for all of their websites and forums.

The heavy political opinion which all to often leads to aggression and the alienation of those who want to use a caravan forum has no place on here.

I've made my point, please read through the thread, note the email address if you wish.

I have the feeling that this thread has descended into argument for argument's sake, if further clarification is required please use the contact details to contact Haymarket Publishing.

 

[Guest]

SIL has got close Steve. PC forum has become a meeting place.

What is said here is no different to what is said on sites throughout UK and Europe, if you don't like the veiws expressed by vanners on a site, you walk away or move on.

It should be the same in chit chat, not hide away what concerns caravanners, what makes them tick or what governs what they are able to do today.