Pre Delivery Inspections.

[ProfJohnL]

The PDI has just been mentioned in a thread in th Equipment & Accessories area, and it has just hit me how devisive they are.

Have you been asked to pay for a PDI and was it itemised on your invoice?

And what is the dealer is sposed to do for a PDI, that they coudn't or shouldnt have done already?

What are your thoughts?

 

[Craigyoung]

In two weeks time I am going to pick a motorhome up with my cousin which is 3 years old and immaculate with thousands off pounds worth off extras ; she has never done anything like what we do regarding the caravans so it is her first time , ( and mine regarding a MH ) but I will be taking particular note and what is explained and what is shown to me/us !

Will report back in a few weeks Prof .....

 

[otherclive]

There should be no explicit charge for a PDI. Clearly it is advantageous for the Dealer to carryout thorough check as factory quality isn't of the highest order. But the PDI should be standardised for the makers models and be a comprehensive check sheet. It should be included within the purchase price not as an extra charge. I dont pay my Skoda dealer extra for a PDI. It should be signed off by a senior member of staff and a copy passed to the customer.

 

[Dustydog]

Aha,
The Devil’s Advocate Prof.
As far as I know PDI checks are something that loosley exists between the Manufacturer and the Dealer. The cost is allegedly included in the ‘delivery charge’ paid by the customer to the Dealer as part of the new purchase price. The idea is that the Manufacturer uses the Dealer as an unofficial Quality Control Manager.

When we come to a used vehicle I am not sure a purist contractual type PDI actually exists in law. I appreciate no Dealer on say a three year old caravan will rely on Caveat Emptor but does he have to sell the caravan with a full detailed PDI? Not sure.
If the purchaser requested a full documented PDI then good, but no doubt some how the cost is hidden in the purchase price. Pay attention to the invoice and note how it is constructed particularly the vat aspect.
As and when I next buy it will probably be used. I will use Parksy or an updated check sheet PDI and demand the Dealer does it.https://www.caravanclub.co.uk/caravanclubapps/media/12728077/ccmmaytechnical.pdf
Equally when buying privately I will without question use the PDI check sheet myself.
The difference is my legal rights dwindle , I think, the further down the line I go from new, used dealer to used privately. Pay due regard however to your Rights under the Consumer Rights Act 2015,.

 

[Craigyoung]

Well my cousin is going to be £4o,ooo lighter in a few weeks so he had better do his homework for when he does his handover inspection checks with us ! hmy:

 

[Dustydog]

Well my cousin is going to be £4o,ooo lighter in a few weeks so he had better do his homework for when he does his handover inspection checks with us ! hmy:

Craig,
£40k. I’d pay myself for an independent inspection and proof of legal title.

 

[Craigyoung]

Well my cousin is going to be £4o,ooo lighter in a few weeks so he had better do his homework for when he does his handover inspection checks with us ! hmy:

Craig,
£40k. I’d pay myself for an independent inspection and proof of legal title.

?? Proof off legal title DD ?

 

[Dustydog]

Well my cousin is going to be £4o,ooo lighter in a few weeks so he had better do his homework for when he does his handover inspection checks with us ! hmy:

Craig,
£40k. I’d pay myself for an independent inspection and proof of legal title.

?? Proof off legal title DD ?

That the seller is the sole owner, there being no shared ownership eg an estranged wife/husband/partner. No outstanding finance or Hp or mortgage type lien. Just being safe Craig. You can do an independent ownership finance check yourself. Google HPI check.

 

[Craigyoung]

Well my cousin is going to be £4o,ooo lighter in a few weeks so he had better do his homework for when he does his handover inspection checks with us ! hmy:

Craig,
£40k. I’d pay myself for an independent inspection and proof of legal title.

?? Proof off legal title DD ?

That the seller is the sole owner, there being no shared ownership eg an estranged wife/husband/partner. No outstanding finance or Hp or mortgage type lien. Just being safe Craig. You can do an independent ownership finance check yourself. Google HPI check.

Cheers DD but the sale is actually from ropers caravan world it was a part exchange for another motorhome that was done by someone else so all is aboveboard thanks !



Mint condition before its valeted

 

[Raywood]

We have never been charged for the PDI. If there was a suggestion of this then the transaction would be ended as the manufacturer pays this. Any dealer who even suggested us paying would immediately lose our confidence and we would be off somewhere else.
I have to say though I did find the form that should be returned to the manufacturer in the information pack of one caravan.Was one done, I simply do not know as we never found anything to suggest it had not been.

 

[Buckman]

The PDI & delivery charge should be a separate item and not included in the overall price of the caravan however generally it is included for some reason.

 

[Dustydog]

The PDI & delivery charge should be a separate item and not included in the overall price of the caravan however generally it is included for some reason.

My last two Baileys were zero delivery charge. I suspect because the dealer is very close to Bristol. I have never seen anything on either invoice that said I paid for the PDI.
I suspect a lot of dealers do a cursory glance and wait for the customer to complain. Then raise a warranty claim. Ie the customer basically does the PDI.
In fairness the two dealers I have dealt with always told me they had done the PDI.Their handovers were very thorough and not rushed.

 

[RayS]

For the last new caravan I bought, I asked the dealer to specify what the PDI included. They replied with the AWS checklist for annual service which i thought acceptable, and this was included in the price. On delivery i picked a couple of categories and was satisfied that these had been covered.
As a caravanner for over 50 years, my expectations are not too high, but i am happy to say that i have no complaints with this procedure. The minor faults which have appeared could not have been reasonably expected to show up against the check list. The one fault - of a gas strut on a seat - was dealt l with quickly and to my satisfaction - I replaced the strut myself and the dealer arrange a refund to the component cost. - .
This saved over 100 mile return trip . Well done Highbridge and Coachman.

 

[Buckman]

In the view that we had to reject a previous caravan bought from another dealer, Northam Farm allowed us to check over the caravan prior to it going for its PDI. They had already noticed a large scratch on the chest of drawers in front and this was pointed out to us We picked up a few minor issues and mentioned them to the NF rep.
On collection we were allowed to stay on their campsite FOC to use the caravan. A couple of more minor issues came to light over the couple of days and they were resolved promptly. Happy chappys!

 

[Craigyoung]

My cousin took delivery of her motorhome and it took about 2 hours for the handover mind you the bloke didnt know that much about it as it wasn't one of their own , i think I was telling him what to do on some of it but we learnt most of it on the time when we got on site at hargill house just 10 minutes down the road , trials and tribulations , but lush !





Shes on the left , us to the right

 

[Anseo]

My cousin took delivery of her motorhome and it took about 2 hours for the handover mind you the bloke didnt know that much about it as it wasn't one of their own , i think I was telling him what to do on some of it but we learnt most of it on the time when we got on site at hargill house just 10 minutes down the road , trials and tribulations , but lush !





Shes on the left , us to the right

2 very nice alternatives to getting away from it all, enjoy.

 

[ProfJohnL]

It is an irrefutable fact that we have come to expect new UK built caravans to have a low probability of customers finding zero faults and no early component failures. It may also be true of caravans from outside the UK, but I focus on the UK because we have different consumer legislation to elsewhere and because this is a UK based forum.

When you consider the numbers and types of faults and early failures that arise it is an insult to the intelligence of the buying public to have the manufacturers claiming they operate Quality Management Systems (QMS). It certainly doesn’t fit any concept I have of QMS’s where a visible and evidenced customer focus has to be demonstrated.

Every good manufacturer should make it part of each production stage to ensure the work they have carried out at that stage is to required standard, and not assume that later production stages will detect non conformances and put them right. Every employee of the company should take responsibility for the work they do, and be responsible to put right what they fail to do first time. Without that important link of actions and consequences, we will always be plagued by poorly finished caravans.

There is nothing wrong with including tied dealerships as part of the QMS, They can have duties defined in the production plan, But they should not have to clean up the mistakes the factory makes.

The Consumer Rights Act actually sets out. Dealers should not allow faulty goods to reach the customer. Even if the fault is not of their making, under the CRA they are responsible for the condition of the goods. If the dealer does not understand that is a contractual term imposed by the CRA in ALL retail purchases.

In undertaking to become a retailer, they should be aware of all such legislation. Customers should also be aware of it so they can without fear being victimised insist that dealers do what they are paid and should do and that is to check the goods they are selling.

 

[Guzzilazz]

When you consider the numbers and types of faults and early failures that arise it is an insult to the intelligence of the buying public to have the manufacturers claiming they operate Quality Management Systems (QMS). It certainly doesn’t fit any concept I have of QMS’s where a visible and evidenced customer focus has to be demonstrated.

Every good manufacturer should make it part of each production stage to ensure the work they have carried out at that stage is to required standard, and not assume that later production stages will detect non conformances and put them right. Every employee of the company should take responsibility for the work they do, and be responsible to put right what they fail to do first time. Without that important link of actions and consequences, we will always be plagued by poorly finished caravans.

There is nothing wrong with including tied dealerships as part of the QMS, They can have duties defined in the production plan, But they should not have to clean up the mistakes the factory makes.
.

Having been involved in QMS revalidation (ISO20000 - IT Service Management) I'm afraid I have a very cynical view of the regime. There is no check that the most important part - as in attitude of management and staff- is embedded in the psyche of the organisation. The only thing that's checked is that the documentation is up to date and that the boxes have been ticked. Cases for audit are carefully selected, and it's a "set up". Seeing a BS9001 (or whatever the ISO equivalent) may not have any meaning in practice. There are organisations who realise that the route to success is through embedding the do it right first time culture without going through an expensive certification.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Having been involved in QMS revalidation (ISO20000 - IT Service Management) I'm afraid I have a very cynical view of the regime. There is no check that the most important part - as in attitude of management and staff- is embedded in the psyche of the organisation. The only thing that's checked is that the documentation is up to date and that the boxes have been ticked. Cases for audit are carefully selected, and it's a "set up". Seeing a BS9001 (or whatever the ISO equivalent) may not have any meaning in practice. There are organisations who realise that the route to success is through embedding the do it right first time culture without going through an expensive certification.

Your cynicism about certified QMS's may brought about from your personal experience, My own experience is somewhat more positive being based on manufacturing businesses where there has been a real commitment to the ethics of the scheme. Inevitably no company will want to spend resources on going beyond achieving accreditation, and there will be some who becasue accreditation is prerequisite for some contracts, will try to bend the rules as you have previously described in other threads, but where senior management has understood the benefits of not just getting accreditation, but living the ethic, do see real commercial advantage in the long run.

Accreditation does not benefit every organisation, mainly small retailers, but that does not mean there is no point in following some of the principles that the standards encourage, and where businesses have adopted the principles they usually see real benefits in the long term.

A ISO standard QMS will only work if it's adopted and lead from the highest level in an organisation.

It would be nice to see the Caravan industry actually doing something positive in regards to operating an effective QMS and reducing the number of faults they produce. Its not rocket science!

 

[Boff]

I was told by a former employee of one of the major caravan manufacturers, that they were paid a bonus based entirely on the number of units produced. So they were paid more money if they built 10 units that required complete rebuilds, than if the produced 9 units that had no faults.

I have no way of telling if he was being truthful, and this related to a decade ago. However looking at some of the blatant and obvious faults on new caravans. It is for me a believable state of affairs.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I was told by a former employee of one of the major caravan manufacturers, that they were paid a bonus based entirely on the number of units produced. So they were paid more money if they built 10 units that required complete rebuilds, than if the produced 9 units that had no faults.

I have no way of telling if he was being truthful, and this related to a decade ago. However looking at some of the blatant and obvious faults on new caravans. It is for me a believable state of affairs.

Its called "piece work" and yes its based on quantity not quality, and it has been rife throughout the UK caravan industry for years.

Piece work its self is not always bad, but it should be reserved for simple jobs where operator skill is not required. That does not mean its always wrong to use it for caravan production, but it would require the design of the product and the design of the production environment inherently prevents incorrect assembly. - The caravan industry has a long way to go before they reach that level of product design.

Presently the manufacturers would do better to invest in training their production operatives and to introduce incentives that favour quality over quantity.

Industries where such a change has been made have found that product quality goes up, with fewer after sales issues, and ultimately productivity is not significantly worse and whole life costs including warranty costs drop leading to better profitability. and much less scrap.

The car industry is a prime example of this, but there are other less sizable manufacturers who have also verified the savings to be made by just taking care to do it right first time.

Any caravan company shareholders out there, Im sure would be interested if they could improve their investment dividends by up to 10%, just by changing work force incentives.

 

[Boff]

I agree with ProfJohnL’s analysis and the solution. However I do not believe that British caravan manufacturers are capable of making such a change. The reason is simple, it’s cash flow. To implement what the changes that the Prof advocates would result in the long term benefits he describes. But it would also mean in the short term a reduction in production. This means a reduction in cash flow. I do not believe that you manufacturers are willing to or capable of surviving that period of time. I see the caravan manufacturers as being on a treadmill where by they need to churn out units. So that they can afford to buy the raw materials to make the next batch. It seems to me a hand to mouth existence and unfortunately typical of much of U.K. manufacturing industry.

 

[Dustydog]

Coachman 84%
Bailey79.1%
Swift 79.1%
Hymer / Elddis 71%

These are the latest C&CC 2019 new caravan satisfaction awards.
They are all celebrating their terrific performances!
The big players clearly have a failure rate of 20%. Pretty poor show. I agree that unless they follow the Prof’s suggestion nothing will improve.

 

[Parksy]

The British car industry produced some real abominations in the 1970s /80s and to my mind it wasn't until automation replaced many of the bored uncaring track workers that standards of build quality began to improve to any significant degree.
Cars built by robots these days are light years away from what they were in the 1980s in terms of build quality and overall reliability.
The caravan industry still relies on manual labour to assemble a set of components with a more or less hand built end product.
The manual element is the obvious flaw in the process, and I'm sorry to say that until a greater degree of build automation is introduced to the process, if it ever happens, then there will be no noticeable improvement on what we are expected to put up with now.
Unless of course we, as customers, do what British motor industry customers once did, and that is to desert the bad products in favour of better built ones.
The trouble is that they're all more or less as bad as each other as far as European caravans are concerned for the prices that we're prepared to pay.

 

[Raywood]

Long term I think the current firms will have to improve or go the way of our motorbike industry. I cannot accept that the improvements the Prof suggests cannot be achieved but it might have to be done n stages rather than in one go.