Reason for CMC deposits!

[Dustydog]

The OP quoted the CAMC,
”The next step to improving availability is the introduction of deposits coupled with cancellation terms and conditions. This will help address the rise in cancellations, which has been a growing problem that has increased in recent years”.

That says it all doesn’t it? Their original ancient methodology was failing them.

 

[Jcloughie]

Timetabling is a different problem. There you (as the timetabler) have total control over who goes where and for how long. Booking pitches does not give you (the site manager) that freedom IF you want to offer specific pitches.

Actually, as a timetabler you have very very little control over who goes where and for how long. (You are only aware of the ideal). Particularly where various specialist classrooms and workshops are involved. Clashes are never ending and compromises occur all the time.

In many ways it is not comparable, but if something so much more complex is possible why be so defeatist with regards to accommodating customers.

The problems you suggest are real. But not insurmountable. IMHO


John

 

[JTQ]

I agree there are more complications than my analogies suggested. But nothing a little programming could not handle. Some sites don’t have a problem and have allowed selection successfully for years even with manual systems.

I don't see it as in anyway a software issue, just a fundamental one as Tobes in # 74 well illustrates.
If a desired pitch is not available for the entirety of a requested booking, that request can't be granted. Client needs to modify their requirements to fit what is available or walk away.
This failing to secure that booking leaves the site exposed to there being a booking, or a more flexible client coming along that does fit in the hole(s).
If so great, if not that pitch has days of no occupancy.

Clearly it is a business model choice sites can make, take possible hits to plicate the specific desire of some clients, or go down a route with less risk of vacant pitches. It's a balancing act the site operator chooses their preferred model.

I suspect the CMC prefer to chase the higher general membership occupancy model, than being "nice" to individuals.

We have been affected, being able to use one pitch for a few days, up till a particular date, and move the lot, full awning etc to another pitch for "X" days, only able to stay anywhere on that site up to another date.

If there were an abundance of people willing to move pitches and accept a limited stay, then that helps the site, but I sense we are not thick on the ground. We only did so as we were meeting friends, so dates and location had to match.

 

[Tobes]

Actually, as a timetabler you have very very little control over who goes where and for how long. (You are only aware of the ideal). Particularly where various specialist classrooms and workshops are involved. Clashes are never ending and compromises occur all the time.

In many ways it is not comparable, but if something so much more complex is possible why be so defeatist with regards to accommodating customers.

The problems you suggest are real. But not insurmountable. IMHO


John

I take it back - timetableing is a nightmare. I used to be in awe of my mum (a head teacher) doing her timetabling over the summer holidays in the 70s and 80s. She used to have a massive whiteboard divided up to show the week and the rooms, and then lots and lots of stickers representing the teachers, subjects and classes, and tried to fit them all in. It used to take her and her deputy weeks to get right.

I am not being defeatist over the idea of individual pitch booking. If it works for any given site, then go ahead! It's a nice offering that allows selection for the camper. It's exactly the same for hotels with specific rooms and suites. But the point is, if you offer specific pitch booking with no control over stay length and start date at all, you can expect to see an increase in stranded pitch nights. It's an inevitable outcome of the system. There are actions you can take to moderate it, one of which has been identified in the airline system. Make specific reservation of pitch (or seat for an airline) both a cost option, and something that you can "turn off". By building in a buffer of un-reservable pitches, or pitches that have un-reservable nights, it is possible to increase total occupancy. But only to a point. If you end up with that one night gap on pitch A right before you have a reservation due to occupy it, there is nothing you can do to sell it other than hope you have a one night guest show an interest.

 

[Jcloughie]

I take it back - timetableing is a nightmare. I used to be in awe of my mum (a head teacher) doing her timetabling over the summer holidays in the 70s and 80s. She used to have a massive whiteboard divided up to show the week and the rooms, and then lots and lots of stickers representing the teachers, subjects and classes, and tried to fit them all in. It used to take her and her deputy weeks to get right.

I am not being defeatist over the idea of individual pitch booking. If it works for any given site, then go ahead! It's a nice offering that allows selection for the camper. It's exactly the same for hotels with specific rooms and suites. But the point is, if you offer specific pitch booking with no control over stay length and start date at all, you can expect to see an increase in stranded pitch nights. It's an inevitable outcome of the system. There are actions you can take to moderate it, one of which has been identified in the airline system. Make specific reservation of pitch (or seat for an airline) both a cost option, and something that you can "turn off". By building in a buffer of un-reservable pitches, or pitches that have un-reservable nights, it is possible to increase total occupancy. But only to a point. If you end up with that one night gap on pitch A right before you have a reservation due to occupy it, there is nothing you can do to sell it other than hope you have a one night guest show an interest.

I agree, but nevertheless, it depends on whether the site, or club, is attempting to achieve full occupancy. Or improved customer satisfaction. Some redundancy can be offset by late bookings, perhaps at reduced rates. A bit like your hotel analogy.

re. the timetabling. Not a school but an FE college for me. 5 of us heads of departments, supported by two clerical officers driving software that could not cope. Did ours. So 7 of us, plus, I used to rope one of my staff in to help as he had one of those types of mind and was much better than me at doing it. (He even enjoyed it)! Complete nightmare.

There is one good reason why a site may prefer to allocate on arrival. Sometime a pitch is unusable and needs resting. But if they had full occupancy that goes out of the window anyway.



John

 

[Jcloughie]

I don't see it as in anyway a software issue, just a fundamental one as Tobes in # 74 well illustrates.
If a desired pitch is not available for the entirety of a requested booking, that request can't be granted. Client needs to modify their requirements to fit what is available or walk away.
This failing to secure that booking leaves the site exposed to there being a booking, or a more flexible client coming along that does fit in the hole(s).
If so great, if not that pitch has days of no occupancy.

Clearly it is a business model choice sites can make, take possible hits to plicate the specific desire of some clients, or go down a route with less risk of vacant pitches. It's a balancing act the site operator chooses their preferred model.

I suspect the CMC prefer to chase the higher general membership occupancy model, than being "nice" to individuals.

We have been affected, being able to use one pitch for a few days, up till a particular date, and move the lot, full awning etc to another pitch for "X" days, only able to stay anywhere on that site up to another date.

If there were an abundance of people willing to move pitches and accept a limited stay, then that helps the site, but I sense we are not thick on the ground. We only did so as we were meeting friends, so dates and location had to match.

There we are in agreement. It comes down to a business model, but not a customer focused one though IMHO.

But I cannot see me ever considering making a booking which involved switching pitches midway. I would just book somewhere else.

If club sites did allow selection, (and they do a little with serviced pitches). We would be the biggest losers, simply because we have never have booked much ahead. So we would end up with Hobsons choice. Conversely, this year at Putts corner. We ended up, by shear luck, with the best pitch on the site, including the serviced pitches.





John

 

[Darren.H]

Tobes your not getting it.

Dates Entered
Duration entered

Then and only then are pitches shown that are available.

Your presuming that as CC model "Every" pitch is at the disposal of the client, when reality its the ones chosen by the programme that are shown to be available, thereby maximising occupancy not minimising, its a well made argument but your still trying to use the CC model as the basis for the pick a pitch model and not taking into account, for want of a better way "Occupancy Planning" the software undertakes.

I stopped typing and had a Google, I so enjoy forums and debates as the learning curve never ends.
So I looked at a pick your pitch site, managed to find the software supplier, then Googled them, and would you believe it they also list CC as a client!

My guess, wild as it is, CC have the base model, commercial sites the high end more expensive package!

You live and learn as they say.

Maybe a feature for the magazine, Site Booking Management, has it ever been done?
I'm sure it could be written in a way to be of wider interest.

Merry Christmas everyone and lets hope a more cheerful New Year.
🥳

 

[Buckman]

This gives me certainty knowing our choice gives us the best view, nearest to the dog walk, and best sat tv signal, ie no trees obscuring line of sight.

Best view and nearest dog walk have never been one of our priorities when booking a pitch however no trees in line of sight is a priority and we avoid sites with trees all around i.e. Goodwood. Bonus is when we can booked a fully serviced pitch.

 

[Tobes]

Tobes your not getting it.

Dates Entered
Duration entered

Then and only then are pitches shown that are available.

Your presuming that as CC model "Every" pitch is at the disposal of the client, when reality its the ones chosen by the programme that are shown to be available, thereby maximising occupancy not minimising, its a well made argument but your still trying to use the CC model as the basis for the pick a pitch model and not taking into account, for want of a better way "Occupancy Planning" the software undertakes.

I stopped typing and had a Google, I so enjoy forums and debates as the learning curve never ends.
So I looked at a pick your pitch site, managed to find the software supplier, then Googled them, and would you believe it they also list CC as a client!

My guess, wild as it is, CC have the base model, commercial sites the high end more expensive package!

You live and learn as they say.

Maybe a feature for the magazine, Site Booking Management, has it ever been done?
I'm sure it could be written in a way to be of wider interest.

Merry Christmas everyone and lets hope a more cheerful New Year.
🥳

I stand by what I said on post #74. “Booking a specific pitch offers fewer spaces over all IF you allow free constraint over start date and stay length.” A system that removes certain pitches to perform “Occpancy planning “ is introducing additional constraints. I.e, if your dates fit the planning softwares algorithm, it offers you the pitch.

Fascinating to find that CMC use the same software as other commercial sites but choose not to offer specific pitch booking!

 

[Darren.H]

I stand by what I said on post #74. “Booking a specific pitch offers fewer spaces over all IF you allow free constraint over start date and stay length.” A system that removes certain pitches to perform “Occpancy planning “ is introducing additional constraints. I.e, if your dates fit the planning softwares algorithm, it offers you the pitch.

Fascinating to find that CMC use the same software as other commercial sites but choose not to offer specific pitch booking!

From what I read I came away thinking CC use it for the glamping pods

Anytime booking

 

[RogerL]

I stand by what I said on post #74. “Booking a specific pitch offers fewer spaces over all IF you allow free constraint over start date and stay length.” A system that removes certain pitches to perform “Occpancy planning “ is introducing additional constraints. I.e, if your dates fit the planning softwares algorithm, it offers you the pitch.

Fascinating to find that CMC use the same software as other commercial sites but choose not to offer specific pitch booking!

The ability to fill all pitches depends on demand - for high demand sites there will be enough potential bookings of all different lengths to fit even short gaps between pre-selected pitch bookings - although some potential customers will be disappointed if they can't get their selected period even though the site isn't fully booked at that point.

 

[Raywood]

You are really having to balance member rights and satisfaction. There are valid arguments for and against all booking systems quoted so the answer has to be which is best for the membership as a whole. We do not have the statistics on what happens in each scenario so none of us can be quite sure if we are right, you simply have to either accept the management proposals and get on with it or go elsewhere.
Personally I will go with deposits and see how it works, I do think booking specific pitches will lead to some pitches being unoccupied at times and that the deposit loss period is a bit long and 14 days would be better.

 

[Jcloughie]

You are really having to balance member rights and satisfaction. There are valid arguments for and against all booking systems quoted so the answer has to be which is best for the membership as a whole. We do not have the statistics on what happens in each scenario so none of us can be quite sure if we are right, you simply have to either accept the management proposals and get on with it or go elsewhere.
Personally I will go with deposits and see how it works, I do think booking specific pitches will lead to some pitches being unoccupied at times and that the deposit loss period is a bit long and 14 days would be better.

Should you really HAVE to accept the management proposals and get on with it? We know it’s a business in all but name, but members should be able to influence the decisions made, otherwise, what’s the point!

But I do agree, it is a balance. But a club should air on satisfaction before purely financial desisions. After all, improved satisfaction will lead to long term benefits.

Imagine hotels telling you to walk the floors to find an empty room! 😀

John

 

[Dustydog]

Best view and nearest dog walk have never been one of our priorities when booking a pitch however no trees in line of sight is a priority and we avoid sites with trees all around i.e. Goodwood. Bonus is when we can booked a fully serviced pitch.

There will be those who want to be next to the toilet block and reception. Just shows how we all have different requirements and prefer the chance to choose our pitch before arrival👍

 

[otherclive]

Should you really HAVE to accept the management proposals and get on with it? We know it’s a business in all but name, but members should be able to influence the decisions made, otherwise, what’s the point!

But I do agree, it is a balance. But a club should air on satisfaction before purely financial desisions. After all, improved satisfaction will lead to long term benefits.

Imagine hotels telling you to walk the floors to find an empty room! 😀

John

This thread started on the subject of CMHC changes to the booking sytem insofar as deposits will be taken for future bookings. It is a delayed response to what was Ian increasing number of members expressing dissatisfaction at how the free for all booking system effectively excluded some from booking sites or durations for their trip. Until about 2 years ago the Club continued to maintain that the 72 hour cancellation period was not prejudicial to the overall membership. But now it seems it is.
Rather than making too many changes in parallel I am quite prepared to see how the deposit scheme works in freeing up some better availability. After all the CCC have been using such a scheme for years and in my experience when I booked on their sites I rarely encountered any lock out, and my booking time for trips of one week or more would generally be six months in advance.

 

[Parksy]

A popular 'Best of Britain' commercial site that we use regularly has about a dozen f/s pitches with sea views that are the most sought after.
Deposits are taken at the time of booking with holiday insurance available to cover potential refunds.
It's possible to book any pitch when their bookings open on a given date each year when a deposit is paid, and naturally the most sought after pitches for the busier holiday periods are snapped up within the first couple of weeks.
Patrons of this popular campsite have a choice.
1/ If you want one of the most sought after pitches which are fully booked when you want to visit, see if suitable alternative dates are available for the pitch that you want.
2/ If no alternative date is suitable for you, have a look at the other pitches which haven't yet been booked.
3/ Go somewhere else.

This system doesn't appear to affect the popularity of this site which in peak periods is often fully booked.
The CAMC have obviously decided that a deposit system will work for them.
The most popular pitches will always be booked early, but the possibility of lost deposits should prevent speculative pre-booking which can be cancelled at a later stage with no financial penalty for the speculative booker.

 

[Dustydog]

Oh Parksy! So it’s you who books my favourite pitch😥I have to use their excellent sister site a mile up the road. Still has an hourly bus into town😉😉😉

 

[Parksy]

Oh Parksy! So it’s you who books my favourite pitch😥I have to use their excellent sister site a mile up the road. Still has an hourly bus into town😉😉😉

Guilty as charged M'lud. 😁
This year we tried to book our favourite pitch at Polmanter and somebody beat us to it.
We booked the next door pitch instead, but the tap, drain and ehu bollard are on the wrong side.
I'll have to get the longer water and drain hoses out. 😐

 

[Buckman]

Personally I will go with deposits and see how it works, I do think booking specific pitches will lead to some pitches being unoccupied at times and that the deposit loss period is a bit long and 14 days would be better.

Even on commercial sites it is highly unlikely they can book a specific pitch, but can try and accommodate you as they need to work around other bookings.

 

[Dustydog]

Guilty as charged M'lud. 😁
This year we tried to book our favourite pitch at Polmanter and somebody beat us to it.
We booked the next door pitch instead, but the tap, drain and ehu bollard are on the wrong side.
I'll have to get the longer water and drain hoses out. 😐

Hope you have plenty of these Buckman recommended pegs?

 

[Dustydog]

Even on commercial sites it is highly unlikely they can book a specific pitch, but can try and accommodate you as they need to work around other bookings.

Not the case with most we’ve booked eg South Meadows Belford Northumberland. But none are the same and best check their websites. B o B seem to be ok with specifics as indeed does Wheathill Touring Park near Ludlow.

 

[Parksy]

Even on commercial sites it is highly unlikely they can book a specific pitch, but can try and accommodate you as they need to work around other bookings.

The commercial sites that we use regularly allow specific pitch bookings.
There's often a site map on the respective websites with pitch numbers visible.
When booking the desired pitch number is quoted, and if it's available for the date you want you pay the deposit and you've booked that pitch.

Hope you have plenty of these Buckman recommended pegs?
View attachment 2704

I use connected lengths of flexible waste hose DD.
If the hose doesn't drain properly, every morning I lift the caravan end of the waste pipe to drain any water left in the pipe.
It's worked ok for me so far....

 

[ProfJohnL]

There is no perfect answer to the booking saga, but the multiple booking of sites when you can only use one needs to stop.

I strongly suspect the addition of deposits, where it represents a significant amount of money up front will act as a deterrent especially if it's linked to a non refundable element for no shows.

As for booking particular pitches, this is greatly complicated if there is any flexibility to the length of stay or starting and ending dates.

I'm inclined to think that increasing numbers of caravanner's all after the prime pitches is likely to prices climb.

 

[otherclive]

There is no perfect answer to the booking saga, but the multiple booking of sites when you can only use one needs to stop.

I strongly suspect the addition of deposits, where it represents a significant amount of money up front will act as a deterrent especially if it's linked to a non refundable element for no shows.

As for booking particular pitches, this is greatly complicated if there is any flexibility to the length of stay or starting and ending dates.

I'm inclined to think that increasing numbers of caravanner's all after the prime pitches is likely to prices climb.

From my experience the CMHC did not allow multiple bookings for dates that coincided, at least the booking system prevented that.

 

[RogerL]

At a slight tangent, some suggest that holiday insurance will counter the downsides of deposits - so I got a quote for an annual UK-only multi-trip policy, an eye-watering £2,640.

As an increasing number of CLs are demanding deposits when booking, we'll just have to accept the risk of losing a deposit if we need to cancel - I know others leave things to the last minute but we've always planned well in advance.