Servicing and hidden charges!

[RogerL]

We've been looking around new vans this past week or two, and almost assumed that we ought to be looking at one with Alde heating, as we had seen no adverse comments about it. However some of those adverse comments now seem to be filtering through the system. Is this because initially every one who had it was loathe to "knock" it as they had got it and paid for it, and now are becoming disillusioned with it as it's short comings through experience are manifesting themselves? Certainly I had not seen 'downsides' to it 'til recent posts and some of these 'downsides' filtering through the forums. Certainly I'm thinking now why not stick with something we know and have been satisfied with through many years experience of it. ie Truma (Just don't fancy laying under a new van again to insulate the pipes! Why don't manufacturers fit double walled ducting?)

For my part, I knocked the Alde several years ago when it started being introduced because the fantastic reviews from new owners seemed out of place with the science involved - I accepted Alde on my 2013 Lunar Clubman as there was no option but with a years experience of it, it doesn't perform as well as a properly insulated Truma blown air systems.

 

[Surfer]

The new Truma Combi system seems to be the best of both worlds as it uses the ALDE heating principle combined with blown warm air however I think the system is only fitted to the Coachman caravan. Pity we cannot afford to have the ALDE system ripped out and replaced with the Truma Combi system.

 

[Dustydog]

As the worms now star crawling out of the woodwork I wonder if the caravan manufacturers or Alde will say anything????????

 

[Martin_E]

I would disagree the ultraheat system as you walk around you
caravan/motorhome leaves cold spots where the Alde system does not, if you
whack both on gas and electric Alde will heat up quicker.

You could equally use a normal blow air fan in summer,
although I do agree this could be a shortful by the Alde system.

 

[Martin_E]

To be fair with Alde, Truma and whale systems, a lot of
problems are caused by initial install, where in retrospect the systems actually
work as they should, and not per say as the owner thinks they should

 

[Martin_E]

Duplicate posts

 

[RogerL]

I would disagree the ultraheat system as you walk around you
caravan/motorhome leaves cold spots where the Alde system does not, if you
whack both on gas and electric Alde will heat up quicker.

You could equally use a normal blow air fan in summer,
although I do agree this could be a shortful by the Alde system.

If blown air vents are evenly distributed, there's no
cold spots - the Alde creates a big cold spot at floor level as no heat
reaches it.
Truma could run gas and electric together during warm
up - but rarely necessary - the problem with the Alde warm up is that
much heat goes out into the caravan structure, rather than into heating
the interior air.

I do agree than installation can be faulty so I'll reserve my final judgement until the agreed modifications have been carried out but that won't affect my response above.

 

[MichaelE]

Ive just had my 2nd year service and the dealer didnt mention changing the fluid in the Alde system.

 

[xtrailman]

The Whale system is good, but then so is the Alde system

I only have experience of the "old" Truma Ultraheat blown-air and now a year with the Alde.
IMO the Alde is outperformed by the old Truma - the Alde is too slow to warm the caravan up, has no heat output at floor level so cold feet and hot water temperature varies from 40-80 oC depending on room heating operation, instead of a constant 60 oC. The Alde can't be used to circulate cool air in summer either.

We have to use a £10 fan heater as well as the Alde !!

Thank you Roger as this is what I have been banging on about on some forums but get shouted down by the ALDE fans. In winter we have to take along an electric fan heater. The wife prefers the blown air system over the ALDE and last year she almost persuaded me to trade it in for an older caravan with blown air heating.
Initially we with our older Lunar 640 caravan we did have issues with the blown air, but once the remote was fitted no more issues! Now we don't use the caravan much in the winter but mainly due to my arthritis and the fact for some reason we seem to have ice cold air blowing in around our feet in the front.
After the tech discovered the gas leak inside the caravan, there is no ways we woudl want to cover any vent. However by the same token, we should not have had a gas leak on a 2 year old caravan. Although we never smelt any gas, we did wonder why we seem to use more gas than normal.

In contast my blown air in the senator was dire, around 4 metres of outside ducting made the blown air unusable, the shower room only got cool air on any setting if it was cold outside, even with all the air mechanically diverted.
I find the Alde heating performs much better, and only find the shower room cooler if the door is closed. Some owners have sorted the issue by fitting a larger radiator.
We also take a fan heater to boost the temperature from a cold start, or while showering.

Personally i would only have the blown air if the ducting was all inside the caravan, as our always warm Avondale was.

 

[RogerL]

In contast my blown air in the senator was dire, around 4 metres of outside ducting made the blown air unusable, the shower room only got cool air on any setting if it was cold outside, even with all the air mechanically diverted.

Yes - it's the uninsulated long run under the floor that the cause of the issue, not the use of Truma blown-air.
Anyone who is DIY-handy can easily insulate the underfloor run, however long, once done it outperfoms the Alde!
Has anyone with the Alde system found a way to get warm feet, ie heat at floor level ?

 

[xtrailman]

In contast my blown air in the senator was dire, around 4 metres of outside ducting made the blown air unusable, the shower room only got cool air on any setting if it was cold outside, even with all the air mechanically diverted.

Yes - it's the uninsulated long run under the floor that the cause of the issue, not the use of Truma blown-air.
Anyone who is DIY-handy can easily insulate the underfloor run, however long, once done it outperfoms the Alde!
Has anyone with the Alde system found a way to get warm feet, ie heat at floor level ?

I suffer from cold feet but never have it with Alde heating.
And no blown air does not outperform alde, alde can output around 8kw on 3kw electric and gas.

I had blown air ch at home for 25 years, yes it warms up quicker, but it does not maintain set point as accurately as a wet system, a wet system takes longer to warm up, but once warm maintains the temperature more accurately.

 

[RogerL]

I suffer from cold feet but never have it with Alde heating.
And no blown air does not outperform alde, alde can output around 8kw on 3kw electric and gas.

I had blown air ch at home for 25 years, yes it warms up quicker, but it does not maintain set point as accurately as a wet system, a wet system takes longer to warm up, but once warm maintains the temperature more accurately.

The hot/warm air in the Alde comes out behind the seat backs, about a metre above floor level - there's no outlets down at foot level and as warm air rises, it stays cold round our feet.
The Alde boiler certainly has 8kw but the convector elements will be much less than that, more like 3kw possible less depending on layout - the Truma runs at 5kw, all usable.
If Alde outperformed the Truma, we wouldn't need to supplement the Alde with a cheap fan heater!
Temperature accuracy is all down to where the caravan manufacturer fits the thermostat, not the make of heating.

 

[xtrailman]

No temperature accuracy is down to the heating medium.
Air cools much quicker than water, which is why a wet system always outperforms blown air, once up to temperature.
I don't know how your Alde pipes run but mine run on the floor especially in the shower room, were only the towel rail is above floor level. So about 90/10%
In the living quarters only across the door and behind the fridge and wardrobe are at floor level, and along behind the door. So thats about 50/50%

Ps none of my heatexhangers are mounted at 1M, that would put them above the seat cushions and bed mattress?
And the Unicorn does have a useable 3kw element, not 2kw as some Lunar caravans have.

 

[RogerL]

No temperature accuracy is down to the heating medium.
Air cools much quicker than water, which is why a wet system always outperforms blown air, once up to temperature.
I don't know how your Alde pipes run but mine run on the floor especially in the shower room, were only the towel rail is above floor level. So about 90/10%
In the living quarters only across the door and behind the fridge and wardrobe are at floor level, and along behind the door. So thats about 50/50%

Ps none of my heatexhangers are mounted at 1M, that would put them above the seat cushions and bed mattress?
And the Unicorn does have a useable 3kw element, not 2kw as some Lunar caravans have.

Yes - air does cool quicker than circulating fluid, so the thermostat cuts back in earlier, more often.
The plain 22mm pipe helps but does little compared to the convectors - mine are in the bed boxes but the warm air only starts to circulate when it gets up to the height of the seat backs. The only air circulation at floor level is cold/cool air ready to be heated.
I've got a 3kw electric Alde, it helps the warm up from cold but once the circulating fluid reaches 80 oC, the boiler cuts the power and the output is then totally dependent on the number/size of the convectors.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I suspect that unlike most contributors to this thread, I have actually been involved in testing heaters and AC units in caravans, Though I have not personally tested an Alde heater, colleagues did test an early UK model.

Both wet and dry systems have advantages and disadvantages, and the optimum solution for any caravan may not be the same as other vans of similar size and layout.

It also has a lot to do with personal expectations of what you demand of the heater, so there will never be a universal answer that right for all customers.

What is very unfortunate is the caravan manufacturers apparent inability to install OEM items for optimum performance. We have had many documented reports of caravan manufacturers failing to install fridges, and Carver/Truma heaters in accordance with the appliance manufacturers instructions, It would be of no surprise to me to find that Alde products also suffer from the caravan manufacturers poor attention to detail.

Consequently unless an installation has been confirmed by the appliance manufacture as being optimum, then we cannot expect the performance of these products to be fully representative of what they can achieve. It follows that you cannot make direct comparisons of the appliances, as the installations may be unfairly compromised in different ways.

The contributor comments we have seen so far are personal individual experiences, the caravans, and personal expectations and physiological responses are all different, we cannot draw any accurate conclusions about which, if either system is better.

 

[RogerL]

I have tested an Alde system - my own because of it's poor performance on site in winter needing help from a fan heater - tested at home afterwards (without the fan heater) over a 4 day period when the weather conditions were a consistent -1 oC day and night with zero heat gain from the sun due to fog, with internal and external temperature readings hourly from reliable thermometers I "just happen" to have.
Once the initial warm-up phase was over, some 8 hours at 3kw heat setting, the internal temperature settled to 21 oC, a difference between internal and external of 22 oC. The room thermostat was set to maximum.
My investigations showed that the boiler thermostat was cutting in/out to keep the circulating fluid at it's maximum temperature of 76 oC on the boiler return, as it should, and this was limiting the "effective" output to about 1.6 kw - increasing boiler power has no effect when the heating is limited by the number/size of convectors and the air flowing over them.
A warm-up time of 8 hours and temperature difference of 22 oC fall a long way short of the Grade 3 insulation standard of 4 hours to 35 oC, claimed for my caravan. My dealer, Alde's own engineer called to investigate and Lunar themselves have accepted my findings and agreed to carry out remedial work while we're not using the caravan by improving the airflow over the convectors to enable more of the boiler's power to be used.

I never needed to carry out a similar test on the Truma blown-air system fitted to my previous caravan - just set the thermostat to 22 oC, set the power to 0.5, 1.0 or 2.0 kw according to the weather and it would warm-up in 2-3 hours and cope with -12 oC temperatures despite being only Grade 2 - it had been modified under warranty to reposition the thermostat.

My personal expectations may be different to other people but they weren't/aren't different between the two heating systems - I expect my caravan heating to do the job, Truma blown-air will, Alde won't.

 

[xtrailman]

Yes it will, if installed correctly.
Its pointless making general statements such as those you have made.
I have no problems maintaining 22 degrees C in our Valencia, in any weather we have been in, and it doesn't take 8 hours to warm up.

Indeed i have covered the heat exchanger behind the front chest of drawers because i was getting too hot.

Because these systems are piped in series its not possible to fine tune individual heat exchangers, as you can on a domestic system, helping to keep weight down is responsible for this, and costs.

If your install is poor because of the lack of radiators, then simply increase the CSA.

All the heat exchangers are is the pipe with push on fins, so simply convert your present interconnecting pipes to heat exchangers, alde supply the fins and can also tell you the KW rating per foot.

You mention Lunar, some Lunar have the in head circulating pump, which i don't rate, especially with a fixed bed as the noise from the pump can be intrusive, anyway i have heard of some owners getting the boiler mount pump, which i have which comes with a variable speed.

Mines set to position 2, and the system performs on that setting as expected, in fact i was considering reducing the speed to position one. It extends the pump life on a lower setting.

What i would suggest is that you increase the pump speed first, or fit the variable speed pump, Lunar should do this for you FOC, if you don't already have one.

See how that performs, if your problem persists increase the heat exchanger CSA.

If your problem continues it can only be a flow problem, ie partial airlock.

My particular model suffers from a cool bathroom, due in part from a undersized towel rail, which should have been a radiator, and the fact that the shower has a permanently vented roof vent.

Ps. our Bailey has plenty of space behind the seats and vents in the bases to allow airflow past the radiators, even the fixed bed has the same. And the wardrobes.

 

[RogerL]

Its pointless making general statements such as those you have made.

I didn't make any general statements - they all relate specifically to my testing and my caravanning needs

There's no point adding fins to the piping in unvented compartments, there's nowhere for the warm air to go.
On our Lunar Clubman ES, there's a twin convector the full width across the front with convectors along the side of the bedbox except where the battery box and external locker are located so no chance of increasing the finned area there. The wheelarch and bunkbed would preclude any increase in the dinette area. The washroom has a radiator and probably the warmest part!
Pump speed will have no effect once the boiler return flow is up to temperature so that doesn't seem to be an issue on my caravan - the header tank pump is noisy but it's in the wardrobe away from the beds.
It's not a flow/airlock issue - all pipework gets up to the boiler cut-out temperature - checked by me and the Alde engineer.
I'm not a heating engineer, the Alde engineer is - he's agreed totally with my findings.

 

[xtrailman]

So really what you are saying is the Alde is ok, but the Lunar install isn't.
Personally i would still ask for the boiler pump as it gives further options, once Lunar have corrected there install problems i think you will be very happy with Alde.

You should have bought a Alutech, at least the Alde works, and any leaks only really affect the floor.

 

[RogerL]

You should have bought a Alutech, at least the Alde works, and any leaks only really affect the floor.

That's good, is it ?

 

[xtrailman]

You should have bought a Alutech, at least the Alde works, and any leaks only really affect the floor.

That's good, is it ?

Very much so.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Roger,

I think you have just proved my point.

My investigations showed that the boiler thermostat was cutting in/out to keep the circulating fluid at it's maximum temperature of 76 oC on the boiler return, as it should, and this was limiting the "effective" output to about 1.6 kw - increasing boiler power has no effect when the heating is limited by the number/size of convectors and the air flowing over them.

It not necessarily the Alde systems that's at fault, but more its installation which has not been optimised and is probably restricting the systems performance.

The same system fitted in a different caravan may perform very well.

 

[Surfer]

As our caravan is a 2011 it has a maximum of 2kw for heating. We have no issue with the bedroom area as that actually gets too warm as the warm air flows up at the head of the bed and again at the bottom of the transverse bed.
Our biggest gripe is that in winter when the temperature is down to about zero we have cold air circulating the front bunks around our feet. Also the heating is very uneven in front as we have warm air rising part of the way down the side bunk and at the very front of the bunk where air cannot rise due to there being no gap.
With the Truma system we were able to direct the warm air so we had no issue with cold feet. Admitedly we initially had a problem, but once a remote sensor was fitted no more issues. The new Truma Combi which has the ALDE type heating plus blown air seems ideal.

 

[xtrailman]

Yet the truma combi i looked at is only 1800 watt. on mains.

I never use the gas so having 3 kw to use is a bonus for me, although it rarly gets used, once warmed up we only use 1kw 70% of the time. With the Alde.

http://www.truma.com/uk/en/heating/combi-6-e.php

 

[intransient1]

This depends on how good the service technician is.
The one I use will not do anything that is expensive until he has called to check if it's Ok and tells me the cost first.
Also as previously stated this is not part of the annual service this is a separate service issue and you should have been advised of the cost before the work was carried out as there was the option to put a longer lifespan product in.