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Shogun

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I now know why 4x4 pilots have a superior look on their faces while driving their tanks ................ it is really a pained expression as they are squeezing their butt cheeks together so hard to prevent s**tting themselves as they try to negotiate a bend in the road!
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Really - say that to an Audi Quattro driver and you would give him a good laugh
 
Daventura - I am not surprized you cannot follow the logic of what I said because being an "anti" your mind is made up and not actually open to sensible debate.

I really do find this holier than thou attitutude of your "anti" brigade obnoxious. You are so certain that you are right and we are wrong all because we drive a vehicle that has an extra propshaft and axle which when towing anything makes it more stable and safer. Even a large 4x4 takes up no more room on the road than a modern people carrier and as for mpg, the BMW mini has worst urban mpg than a lot of 4x4's. It also has a particularly blunt front end - so why are you not campaining to get these removed from the roads?

The debate is as tiresome as you guys are - but at the risk of repeating the same old diatribe I will have another attempt to get you guys to AT LEAST admit that a) we all have a free choice and b) The 4x4 is a valid vehicle choice for people like me who live in the sticks and tow a wide range of vehicles.

Don't get me wrong - I am NOT saying that you have to live in the sticks to have a 4x4 - If I lived in a town I would still want and demand the right to own what I wish.

Many years ago I owned a citroen BX estate - super car great load area but when towing our horse box it left a lot to be desired. Any wet conditions the front driving wheels just began to loose grip. Wet grass !!! forget it. We also had an Audi (we had three over the years and loved every one but somehow the BX gave a more relaxed feel to driving compared to the Audi's - I don't know why but I always had to watch my speed more in the Audi's possibly because they were better made, quieter and a bit more powerful)

I borrowed a 4x4 - what a revalation - stable towing - ability to "creep" of wet grass using low range and dif lock.

I also noticed the IMMEDIATE BENEFIT of better vision.

I noticed as well that I did not drive it as fast as the Audi. It made me more relaxed - ten years after buying the Range Rover I still get a kick out of driving it.

On a serious note and I make no appology whatsoever for stating this - I believe in tolerance - truth not propaganda.

What happened in London yesterday, happened because fanatics decided that they were right and we were wrong and in their version of "truth" - this gave them the right to do such terrible things and the justification is a distortion of the writings of their religion.

If you are so certain that you are so absolutley right then all I thank my God for is that you have latched onto such a trivial belief.

If you are so certain you are absolutley right and others are wrong I feel nothing but pity for you as you have lost the ability to learn, develop and grow.
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Have a cup of tea Clive...you deserve it !
 
Daventura - I am not surprized you cannot follow the logic of what I said because being an "anti" your mind is made up and not actually open to sensible debate.

I really do find this holier than thou attitutude of your "anti" brigade obnoxious. You are so certain that you are right and we are wrong all because we drive a vehicle that has an extra propshaft and axle which when towing anything makes it more stable and safer. Even a large 4x4 takes up no more room on the road than a modern people carrier and as for mpg, the BMW mini has worst urban mpg than a lot of 4x4's. It also has a particularly blunt front end - so why are you not campaining to get these removed from the roads?

The debate is as tiresome as you guys are - but at the risk of repeating the same old diatribe I will have another attempt to get you guys to AT LEAST admit that a) we all have a free choice and b) The 4x4 is a valid vehicle choice for people like me who live in the sticks and tow a wide range of vehicles.

Don't get me wrong - I am NOT saying that you have to live in the sticks to have a 4x4 - If I lived in a town I would still want and demand the right to own what I wish.

Many years ago I owned a citroen BX estate - super car great load area but when towing our horse box it left a lot to be desired. Any wet conditions the front driving wheels just began to loose grip. Wet grass !!! forget it. We also had an Audi (we had three over the years and loved every one but somehow the BX gave a more relaxed feel to driving compared to the Audi's - I don't know why but I always had to watch my speed more in the Audi's possibly because they were better made, quieter and a bit more powerful)

I borrowed a 4x4 - what a revalation - stable towing - ability to "creep" of wet grass using low range and dif lock.

I also noticed the IMMEDIATE BENEFIT of better vision.

I noticed as well that I did not drive it as fast as the Audi. It made me more relaxed - ten years after buying the Range Rover I still get a kick out of driving it.

On a serious note and I make no appology whatsoever for stating this - I believe in tolerance - truth not propaganda.

What happened in London yesterday, happened because fanatics decided that they were right and we were wrong and in their version of "truth" - this gave them the right to do such terrible things and the justification is a distortion of the writings of their religion.

If you are so certain that you are so absolutley right then all I thank my God for is that you have latched onto such a trivial belief.

If you are so certain you are absolutley right and others are wrong I feel nothing but pity for you as you have lost the ability to learn, develop and grow.
Click to expand...
p.s. Daventura and KC are you the same person?....mmmhhh me thinks so.
 
Daventura - I am not surprized you cannot follow the logic of what I said because being an "anti" your mind is made up and not actually open to sensible debate.

I really do find this holier than thou attitutude of your "anti" brigade obnoxious. You are so certain that you are right and we are wrong all because we drive a vehicle that has an extra propshaft and axle which when towing anything makes it more stable and safer. Even a large 4x4 takes up no more room on the road than a modern people carrier and as for mpg, the BMW mini has worst urban mpg than a lot of 4x4's. It also has a particularly blunt front end - so why are you not campaining to get these removed from the roads?

The debate is as tiresome as you guys are - but at the risk of repeating the same old diatribe I will have another attempt to get you guys to AT LEAST admit that a) we all have a free choice and b) The 4x4 is a valid vehicle choice for people like me who live in the sticks and tow a wide range of vehicles.

Don't get me wrong - I am NOT saying that you have to live in the sticks to have a 4x4 - If I lived in a town I would still want and demand the right to own what I wish.

Many years ago I owned a citroen BX estate - super car great load area but when towing our horse box it left a lot to be desired. Any wet conditions the front driving wheels just began to loose grip. Wet grass !!! forget it. We also had an Audi (we had three over the years and loved every one but somehow the BX gave a more relaxed feel to driving compared to the Audi's - I don't know why but I always had to watch my speed more in the Audi's possibly because they were better made, quieter and a bit more powerful)

I borrowed a 4x4 - what a revalation - stable towing - ability to "creep" of wet grass using low range and dif lock.

I also noticed the IMMEDIATE BENEFIT of better vision.

I noticed as well that I did not drive it as fast as the Audi. It made me more relaxed - ten years after buying the Range Rover I still get a kick out of driving it.

On a serious note and I make no appology whatsoever for stating this - I believe in tolerance - truth not propaganda.

What happened in London yesterday, happened because fanatics decided that they were right and we were wrong and in their version of "truth" - this gave them the right to do such terrible things and the justification is a distortion of the writings of their religion.

If you are so certain that you are so absolutley right then all I thank my God for is that you have latched onto such a trivial belief.

If you are so certain you are absolutley right and others are wrong I feel nothing but pity for you as you have lost the ability to learn, develop and grow.
Click to expand...
P&R, do you mean CK rather than KC... Rgds, Simon
 
Daventura - I am not surprized you cannot follow the logic of what I said because being an "anti" your mind is made up and not actually open to sensible debate.

I really do find this holier than thou attitutude of your "anti" brigade obnoxious. You are so certain that you are right and we are wrong all because we drive a vehicle that has an extra propshaft and axle which when towing anything makes it more stable and safer. Even a large 4x4 takes up no more room on the road than a modern people carrier and as for mpg, the BMW mini has worst urban mpg than a lot of 4x4's. It also has a particularly blunt front end - so why are you not campaining to get these removed from the roads?

The debate is as tiresome as you guys are - but at the risk of repeating the same old diatribe I will have another attempt to get you guys to AT LEAST admit that a) we all have a free choice and b) The 4x4 is a valid vehicle choice for people like me who live in the sticks and tow a wide range of vehicles.

Don't get me wrong - I am NOT saying that you have to live in the sticks to have a 4x4 - If I lived in a town I would still want and demand the right to own what I wish.

Many years ago I owned a citroen BX estate - super car great load area but when towing our horse box it left a lot to be desired. Any wet conditions the front driving wheels just began to loose grip. Wet grass !!! forget it. We also had an Audi (we had three over the years and loved every one but somehow the BX gave a more relaxed feel to driving compared to the Audi's - I don't know why but I always had to watch my speed more in the Audi's possibly because they were better made, quieter and a bit more powerful)

I borrowed a 4x4 - what a revalation - stable towing - ability to "creep" of wet grass using low range and dif lock.

I also noticed the IMMEDIATE BENEFIT of better vision.

I noticed as well that I did not drive it as fast as the Audi. It made me more relaxed - ten years after buying the Range Rover I still get a kick out of driving it.

On a serious note and I make no appology whatsoever for stating this - I believe in tolerance - truth not propaganda.

What happened in London yesterday, happened because fanatics decided that they were right and we were wrong and in their version of "truth" - this gave them the right to do such terrible things and the justification is a distortion of the writings of their religion.

If you are so certain that you are so absolutley right then all I thank my God for is that you have latched onto such a trivial belief.

If you are so certain you are absolutley right and others are wrong I feel nothing but pity for you as you have lost the ability to learn, develop and grow.
Click to expand...
Many thanks P&R - believe it or not I have just sat down with my third of the day.

Real T addicts here
 
Hi Daventura

Thats my point ,it wouldnt of mattered what he was driving,anyone in the way would be dead,99.9% of accidents are DRIVER error,not the car!!!!
 
I work in the crash test industry and can conclude this. When yo have spent a day looking at various vehicles, big, small etc that have gone through the Ncap crash test..you soon realize that you are lucky to walk away from any high speed crash...lets also not forget that these vehicles are only tested at low speeds when you read the reviews on what is good and bad...take a look at a 30 mph pole test, I drive a Rover 75 and even that had the drivers seat ontop of the passenger seat after a relatively low impact....
 
meant to say, glad it was just a crash test dummy in the seat...What does also annoy me is kids in the back with no seat belts. When yuo have watched a CTdummy fly through a windcreen in slow motion it really turns your stomach, and this is not a human life...yet we still see this all the time. It amazes me aswell that when they are sat on Mum or Dad's lap in the front, the parents are nicely strapped in...do they really think they can hold onto their child in an impact! Sorry, I have actually digressed from this thread, but an important issue as we started discussing safety issues.
 
Clive

Settle down you make very sensible points with your comments which as a 4 x 4 driver I agree with 100%, I wonder though how much of anti brigade is just a wind up. They continually bang on about how "dangerous" these vehicles are whilst ignoring the fact that they are a much safer option when towing:-

ie 100% Towing ratio - not advisable

85% Towing ratio - Safe

70% Towing ratio - Even safer

60% Towing ratio - safer still

Do I need to go on, I think not. Personnally I have never driven into a pedestrian yet with either a 4 x 4 or a conventional car and have no intention of ever doing so (unless of course one of the London Bombers crosses in front of me later today)

On a more serious note I towed for many years at about 90% (yes I had many years experience of towing before even buying a caravan)since buying the environmentaly unfriendly "beast" I know tow at 61% and I can tell you it is a much safer and relaxed journey. Dont rise to it they are clueless and have no regard for safety.
 
Paul,ruth

You are spot on about the kids,every day I see them bounding around in the back,mum and dad of course in the front have their belts on !unbelievable!!!! I once saw a woman get in the front seat,put her belt on and then was handed a newborn Baby by her partner who then got in and drove off at a ridiculous speed! these people should not only be fined for not having their kids strapped in,but the full weight of the law for child neglect and possible abuse and at worst(god forbid) manslaughter!!!
 
Graham - you are right of course but do not fool yourselve into thinking that thes anti's have no influence.

I do not want to pay
 
Clive, for goodness sake, stop attacking peoples personality! I find the phrase "I really do find this holier than thou attitutude of your "anti" brigade obnoxious" very inflaming as is "biggoted opinions". You just will not stop will you?

Graham, Your argument about weight ratio is fine. But this is a very selfish point of view as the argument against using off road vehicals on the roads is about the safety of 'other' road users and not about how safe you are.

Think about the bad road handling, bad breaking, exessive emissions and pedestrian un-friendly design. Then tell me how safe they are.
 
Stinky

Seriously have you ever driven one? I dont find them any of the things you mention,granted they do not corner like a 360 Modena but I find with the suspension set on sport the ride is quite firm and not wallowy at all. Braking is very good and I would only concede to the environment issue poor economy (although I get 25mpg from 4.2 litres)but while other people continue to polute the air with cigarette smoke I will continue to drive my 4 x 4. As I said earlier I dont run over people so that particular comment does not hold water.
 
The quotation is "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.", it's attributed to Edmund Burke...

William Gaddis wrote "Stupidity's the deliberate cultivation of ignorance." (William Gaddis, Carpenter's Gothic). It seems to apply to many of the postings on the endless, tedious topic of 4x4s...
 
Stinky

Seriously have you ever driven one? I dont find them any of the things you mention,granted they do not corner like a 360 Modena but I find with the suspension set on sport the ride is quite firm and not wallowy at all. Braking is very good and I would only concede to the environment issue poor economy (although I get 25mpg from 4.2 litres)but while other people continue to polute the air with cigarette smoke I will continue to drive my 4 x 4. As I said earlier I dont run over people so that particular comment does not hold water.
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Nicely put Graham

Back comes Stinky Pete all blown up with self righteous bile

How predictable
 
Thanks Simon - I knew one but not the other.

Very apt comments

What gets me is the fact that whilst it is clear that with a Posting of "Shogun" - clearly a reference to the 4x4 - all the anti's flock to it to put their particular brand of nonsence accross.
 
Hello Stinky-Pete - nice to hear from you again - though I am a bit surprized after your spitting your dummy out on another thread and you said you didn't want to talk to me!

I can't tell you what a warm glow your comming back into the fold has given me.
 
You're right, Simon, it is a tedious topic. Talking about pros and cons of 4x4's is always like preaching to the converted, no matter on which side of the fence they sit. I for one am not going to be drawn into any discussion to defend my position. But likewise I'm not going to criticise anyone else, regardless of whether they're towing with a 4x4 or not. It's always going to be an emotional subject and if there were only one answer, we'd all be towing with the same cars.
 
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