Um, isn't that what I said? (only the simpler, easier to understand, less pedantic version!). Are/were you a maths teacher? big smiley icon thingy
you dont really have to worry about speeding on our motorways , what with all the unmanned roadworks , and miles of cones you are very lucky to reach the speed limit , i love the ones with the lights flashing 50 ,when your doing 10 MPH ,then when you pass the cones you have lorries blocking the 2 inside lanes taking 10 miles to overtake each other , last christmas i drove from Swansea to Vilanova in spain which is about 1130 miles i passed through five lots of coned off roads ,and they were in the first 280 miles of my journey
I get the impression that as usual we will always get the ones who know it all and drive at whatever speed suits them.It is reassuring to read here that most caravanners are sensible and drive safely.The one thing that bothers me is when the driver towing a caravan goes past us at 70 - 80 mph does he really think that he/she is invincible.If he meets a hazard and is unable to react quickly enough the accident which ensues may take other lives other than their own.(As happened on the M62 yesterday involving a speeding solo driver)
Hello Margaret,
The point you make should not just be directed at speeding towers, but for all speeding drivers.
I fully support abiding by the speed limits, and those that don't should not complain when they get caught.
However it is wrong to assume that speeding its self is necessarily dangerous, In our area the local council has dropped numerous speed limits to 30mph. Previously a road that was limited to 50 is now 30, so where as an outfit may have done 40mph originally and was legal, if it were to do 40 along the same stretch of road, it is now speeding, but is any more dangerous?
This does not mean I condone speeding, it is illegal.
The point you make should not just be directed at speeding towers, but for all speeding drivers.
I fully support abiding by the speed limits, and those that don't should not complain when they get caught.
However it is wrong to assume that speeding its self is necessarily dangerous, In our area the local council has dropped numerous speed limits to 30mph. Previously a road that was limited to 50 is now 30, so where as an outfit may have done 40mph originally and was legal, if it were to do 40 along the same stretch of road, it is now speeding, but is any more dangerous?
This does not mean I condone speeding, it is illegal.
I understand where you are coming from John but the council must have lowered the speed limits for a reason.It may not be any more dangerous driving at the originial speed limit but a lower limit may reduce the number of accidents on that particular stretch of road. I am no angel and I must admit I have driven over the speed limit unknowingly because I felt I was driving sensibly and not aware of the actual speed until I looked at the speedometer.This does not mean that even though my reactions are quite fast I may not have been able to avoid an accident travelling at that speed.
If you have ever been stuck on the hard shoulder of a motorway it is frightening to realise how fast the traffic is.Even the best of drivers would stand no chance of stopping in time when you see how close together some travel.
If you have ever been stuck on the hard shoulder of a motorway it is frightening to realise how fast the traffic is.Even the best of drivers would stand no chance of stopping in time when you see how close together some travel.
Just wanted to add a comment here, seeing as just about everyone else has already done so....
Anyway just back from a 1900 mile tow around france with a Honda CR/V towing a 2001 Compass Corona.
Towing at 65mph - outfit unshakable not affected by passing lorries, coaches etc
Towing at 67mph - outfit generally stable, a minor wobble could easily be induced by passing (high speed) cars, and during overtaking lorries as the caravan just passes the lorries bow wave.
Towing at 70mph - Outfit comfortable on quiet roads, but minor wobbles could easily occur when passing bridges, cross winds etc. Overtaking lorries at this speed more often than not resulted in a bit of a wobble that needed slowing down to damp out. In the end, I found myself "slowing down" to 65mph or less whenever I needed to overtake a lorry, just to be safer.
Towing above 70mph required a great deal of concentration which was not sustainable for long periods of driving.
I should point out that the "wobbles" encountered were not dangerous and the car was never being pushed off line by the van, but you could certainly feel the van swinging from side to side more than felt comfortable.
I did notice that increasing the van tyre pressures by 3-4 psi above recommended pressures did improve stability by a noticable margin.
Our friends, towing a 6 berth Sterling van with a new Freelander could consistently tow at above 70mph without any stability concerns, and that is with a reasonable weight in the rear storage area on the van.
In general the safe speed for a particular car/van combination will depend totally on the combination and the loading conditions of both. The speed limit is almost unrelated to what is safe. Some vans can be safely towed at 70-80+mph, some are highly unstable towed at 50mph.
My advice is, drive at a safe speed for the car/van combination, and if this is above the legal limit, watch out for flashing blue lights!
FWIW
David
Anyway just back from a 1900 mile tow around france with a Honda CR/V towing a 2001 Compass Corona.
Towing at 65mph - outfit unshakable not affected by passing lorries, coaches etc
Towing at 67mph - outfit generally stable, a minor wobble could easily be induced by passing (high speed) cars, and during overtaking lorries as the caravan just passes the lorries bow wave.
Towing at 70mph - Outfit comfortable on quiet roads, but minor wobbles could easily occur when passing bridges, cross winds etc. Overtaking lorries at this speed more often than not resulted in a bit of a wobble that needed slowing down to damp out. In the end, I found myself "slowing down" to 65mph or less whenever I needed to overtake a lorry, just to be safer.
Towing above 70mph required a great deal of concentration which was not sustainable for long periods of driving.
I should point out that the "wobbles" encountered were not dangerous and the car was never being pushed off line by the van, but you could certainly feel the van swinging from side to side more than felt comfortable.
I did notice that increasing the van tyre pressures by 3-4 psi above recommended pressures did improve stability by a noticable margin.
Our friends, towing a 6 berth Sterling van with a new Freelander could consistently tow at above 70mph without any stability concerns, and that is with a reasonable weight in the rear storage area on the van.
In general the safe speed for a particular car/van combination will depend totally on the combination and the loading conditions of both. The speed limit is almost unrelated to what is safe. Some vans can be safely towed at 70-80+mph, some are highly unstable towed at 50mph.
My advice is, drive at a safe speed for the car/van combination, and if this is above the legal limit, watch out for flashing blue lights!
FWIW
David
'My advice is, drive at a safe speed for the car/van combination, and if this is above the legal limit, watch out for flashing blue lights!'
I am on a different wavelength here obviously.I understand the fact that the outfit must be stable and a correct match with the tow car..BUT...at 70mph+ towing any caravan on our busy motorways especially the M6(North) up to Knutsford from Stoke(an accident blackspot) is dangerous not only for yourself but other road users.Sorry!
I am on a different wavelength here obviously.I understand the fact that the outfit must be stable and a correct match with the tow car..BUT...at 70mph+ towing any caravan on our busy motorways especially the M6(North) up to Knutsford from Stoke(an accident blackspot) is dangerous not only for yourself but other road users.Sorry!
Hello again Margaret,
I have it unofficially stated that our local council is dropping speed limits, not so much for safety concerns but to save money. As I have been led to believe, the requirements to maintain a road to a certain standard drops as the speed limit drops.
Yes there should be a corresponding improvement is safety due to generally slower traffic, but that does not affect the inherent safety or otherwise of a particular outfit. If it is mechanically safe at 40, it is still safe at 40 even if it is towed illegally in a 30mph zone.
It might help to differentiate between a speed limit which a legal requirement, compared to the limit of safety which is a mechanical matter. The two are mutually congruent.
And with respect to David's posting he does say at the outset that he refers to towing speeds in France not the UK.
I have it unofficially stated that our local council is dropping speed limits, not so much for safety concerns but to save money. As I have been led to believe, the requirements to maintain a road to a certain standard drops as the speed limit drops.
Yes there should be a corresponding improvement is safety due to generally slower traffic, but that does not affect the inherent safety or otherwise of a particular outfit. If it is mechanically safe at 40, it is still safe at 40 even if it is towed illegally in a 30mph zone.
It might help to differentiate between a speed limit which a legal requirement, compared to the limit of safety which is a mechanical matter. The two are mutually congruent.
And with respect to David's posting he does say at the outset that he refers to towing speeds in France not the UK.
Like David says, some outfits are technically stable at 70mph+ (at least under ideal conditions, i.e. no strong crosswinds, etc.) others are marginal at 50mph. What this fails to appreciate, however, is that even those that may be stable in a straight line at 70mph would be more than a handful if suddenly confronted with a hazard requiring emergency braking or avoiding action.
Because speed limits cannot differentiate between ideal and non-ideal conditions, they have to cover the vast majority of what may be described as safe and manageable for the average motorist and typical outfit, i.e. a common denominator.
Because speed limits cannot differentiate between ideal and non-ideal conditions, they have to cover the vast majority of what may be described as safe and manageable for the average motorist and typical outfit, i.e. a common denominator.
Is 60 mph the safe speed for a Motorway or should it be 70 mph. Cars and Caravans have moved on a long way from the time 60 was set as the speed limit.
I know when I am limited to 50 mph on an A road I could easily be travelling at 60 mph and still be safe. When people pass you at 70 they feel safe and secure or they would not be doing it ?? They must have a stable outfit or they would be afraid of the caravan turning over. I don't know the stats for caravans turning over, but I do wonder if Speed is the cause or something like Weight or Tyres etc. Any Insurance company figures available ??
I know when I am limited to 50 mph on an A road I could easily be travelling at 60 mph and still be safe. When people pass you at 70 they feel safe and secure or they would not be doing it ?? They must have a stable outfit or they would be afraid of the caravan turning over. I don't know the stats for caravans turning over, but I do wonder if Speed is the cause or something like Weight or Tyres etc. Any Insurance company figures available ??
You can easily feel safe when going 60mph or more in a straight line, but will you still be safe if someone suddenly pulls out in front of you?
Having said that, an unstable outfit does not necessarily end up overturned. It does, however, require a lot more concentration and quick reaction to keep it from getting out of control.
Having said that, an unstable outfit does not necessarily end up overturned. It does, however, require a lot more concentration and quick reaction to keep it from getting out of control.
Hi Gumbo,
The design and engineering behind cars certainly have moved on, but the majority of caravans are still large white boxes on a chassis with rudimentary suspension and brakes.
As Lutz said this might be OK towing in a straight line, but sudden steering inputs are not going to reveal the best from a rubber torsion axle - especially those without shock absorbers to control suspension rebound.
You might like to consider that countries that have researched this topic have opted for a lower speed limit than the UK...
Robert
The design and engineering behind cars certainly have moved on, but the majority of caravans are still large white boxes on a chassis with rudimentary suspension and brakes.
As Lutz said this might be OK towing in a straight line, but sudden steering inputs are not going to reveal the best from a rubber torsion axle - especially those without shock absorbers to control suspension rebound.
You might like to consider that countries that have researched this topic have opted for a lower speed limit than the UK...
Robert
rob_jax
you might like to consider that countries that have researched this topic have opted for a lower speed limit than the UK...
Is this a statement of fact ( if so on what evidence ) or is it just your opinion.
Steve W
you might like to consider that countries that have researched this topic have opted for a lower speed limit than the UK...
Is this a statement of fact ( if so on what evidence ) or is it just your opinion.
Steve W
IN my experience I have rarely come across Car / Caravan outfits travelling along motorways at 70 m.p.h. and I have regularly towed on M27 / M23 / M25 / M40 / M6
In good conditions when towing on a motorway I tend to aim to cruise around 58 / 60 and this may occasionally drift up to 62/65 for very short periods until one happens to look at the speedo or if trying to pass an HGV. But the speed has to relate to the overall conditions so for example when the M27 is close to the coastline the crosswinds on occasions will mean mean that only 50/53 feels appropriate and a similar adjustment or even more can be more in heavy rain.
I do not have any speed fixation but I do set off with an idea of the time I hope to get to the site and the timings usually assume cruising at 55 / 60 on motorways. I do find myself sometimes overtaking over car / caravan combinations where I feel that their chosen pace is slower than mine and to get past without spending too long in the middle lane I do sometimes find it necessary to go more than 60 but 70 or more would feel uncomfortable to me.
Alun
In good conditions when towing on a motorway I tend to aim to cruise around 58 / 60 and this may occasionally drift up to 62/65 for very short periods until one happens to look at the speedo or if trying to pass an HGV. But the speed has to relate to the overall conditions so for example when the M27 is close to the coastline the crosswinds on occasions will mean mean that only 50/53 feels appropriate and a similar adjustment or even more can be more in heavy rain.
I do not have any speed fixation but I do set off with an idea of the time I hope to get to the site and the timings usually assume cruising at 55 / 60 on motorways. I do find myself sometimes overtaking over car / caravan combinations where I feel that their chosen pace is slower than mine and to get past without spending too long in the middle lane I do sometimes find it necessary to go more than 60 but 70 or more would feel uncomfortable to me.
Alun
There is a very thorough research paper from the University of Bath which showed that most caravan combinations start to become unstable at around 55mph (give or take about 5mph to take variances in conditions into account). The caravan chassis manufacturers such as AlKo will only give their products a clean bill of health up to 100km/h (62mph). Therefore any speed over that is really risky, to say the least. Consequently, it is not surprising that the vast majority of countries have an 80km/h speed limit for caravans, whether they have done any research of their own or not.
Driving to the conditions seems to be the safest option. You can have a very stable outfit at 50 mph and a very stable outfit at 75 mph. Did Bath use the ATC system and was the Caravan fitted with shock absorbers ?? Did they use a Heavy 4 X 4 with a well balanced Caravan. It's not so much the Speed as all the other variables which need to be considered. You need to be as aware of the traffic at 50 mph on the Motorway as you do at 60 or even 70 mph.
Slowcoach is right - all motor manufacturers now err on the side of caution when setting up speedos for their cars and between 30 and 80 mph it is normal for speedos to register up to 10% less than the actual speed of your vehicle, a point that can easily be checked on a straight stretch of road using the speed setting on any Sat Nav.
As a businessman who attends various shows around the country, I use my caravan instead of staying in hotels - for me caravanning is not a leisure activity but part of my working week. Getting there is not part of the fun but a necessary evil that has to be endured; the sooner I reach my destination, the sooner I can set up my stand and start to earn money to pay the exorbitant fuel bill. Mike
As a businessman who attends various shows around the country, I use my caravan instead of staying in hotels - for me caravanning is not a leisure activity but part of my working week. Getting there is not part of the fun but a necessary evil that has to be endured; the sooner I reach my destination, the sooner I can set up my stand and start to earn money to pay the exorbitant fuel bill. Mike
Gumbo, the report was written before the ATC system was on the market. The report makes no mention of shock absorbers so I presume that the tests were performed without.
It is also rather immaterial whether they used a heavy 4x4 (they didn't, they used a Mondeo) because they were trying to simulate typical, not ideal, conditions.
Lutz the only point I am trying to make is " what I feel safe at " Not what someone else feels they need to police, I have done speeding solo as well as towing. Most people travel our motorways at 80mph + which is above the safe limit or is it ?? I know when in Germany people travel a lot faster it's not unsafe, it's just what they are used to I suppose. I have been passed in Germany doing 100mph and not by the odd driver but by many !!! They felt safe and by and large they are safe. Just in the UK we seem to be going through a PC phase on the road as well as in our daily life. LB would be proud of that last statement. Like the people who look at every outfit on site to see if it matches, people need to get a life.
Sorry Lutz, you are right it depends on the outfit, people may be breaking the law but they are relatively safe, because the outfit is Safe
The trouble is that the vehicle, whether solo or towing, may feel right at high speed, but one may have a sense of false security by failing to recognise that other road users may do something stupid.
A couple of years ago I regularly had to commute on business between Frankfurt and Munich and invariably averaged, yes averaged, 100mph (obviously not towing) if the weather conditions were right, but then this was in the very early hours of the morning with next to no traffic. For fear that someone may pull out in front of me when doing 160mph I wouldn't even consider going that fast during the day although there might have been the odd opportunity.
A couple of years ago I regularly had to commute on business between Frankfurt and Munich and invariably averaged, yes averaged, 100mph (obviously not towing) if the weather conditions were right, but then this was in the very early hours of the morning with next to no traffic. For fear that someone may pull out in front of me when doing 160mph I wouldn't even consider going that fast during the day although there might have been the odd opportunity.
Was watching an old Clarkson program this morning where they towed a caravan at 124 +mph, and the only thing untowards happened was a side window blowing out,on the second attempt the car engine "blew"up
The world speed record for a twin axle caravan stands at 224km/h (139mph) and that for a single axle 231km/h (144mph). In both cases the towcar was a Porsche Cayenne Turbo. The caravans being towed were a T@B XL and a T@B, respectively.
I think there are two strands of debate going on here.One is whether speeding with a equally matched stable outfit is OK regardless and the other one which is equally as important and that is whether speeding at all with whatever outfit is acceptable.We have a heavy 4x4 and an ATC system on our 1600kg caravan. We could easily reach 80+mph on the motorway and still feel stable and safe BUT only if the motorway was completely empty and we were not likely to meet any hazard whatsoever.The point is that at 70mph+ towing a caravan on the motorway to me is foolhardy. Your luck may run out one day!!! Sorry if I have offended anybody but life is so precious.My OH was killed on the motorway and I know first hand how devastating this is for everyone involved.You always think it doesn't happen to you only to others.
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