Luke yep every word you say is right with an attitude like that one she should not be on the road at all
Cheers Duggie
Cheers Duggie
John L,
I'm not sure what you refer to by "unpublicised limits for different classes of vehicle", as all the normal classes (M/cycles, cars, vans, buses, small and large goods vehicles) and relevant speed limits for each are publicised in the Highway Code.
Abnormals and special types are not in there, but I don't see why they would need to be.
Your theory is sound for bigger vehicles travelling at higher speeds and that probably would help with some congestion, but you are not considering the effects of when something goes wrong, the mayhem would be unthinkable, at least until such time as RogerL states, advances in technology allow a 44 tonne Artic to stop as quckly as a modern family saloon and that isn't going to happen in my lifetime.
Fully agree with you on the information overload of signs in some locations and I believe some local authorities are considering the benefits of removing signs and road markings.
Those results will be worth a look at.
I'm not sure what you refer to by "unpublicised limits for different classes of vehicle", as all the normal classes (M/cycles, cars, vans, buses, small and large goods vehicles) and relevant speed limits for each are publicised in the Highway Code.
Abnormals and special types are not in there, but I don't see why they would need to be.
Your theory is sound for bigger vehicles travelling at higher speeds and that probably would help with some congestion, but you are not considering the effects of when something goes wrong, the mayhem would be unthinkable, at least until such time as RogerL states, advances in technology allow a 44 tonne Artic to stop as quckly as a modern family saloon and that isn't going to happen in my lifetime.
Fully agree with you on the information overload of signs in some locations and I believe some local authorities are considering the benefits of removing signs and road markings.
Those results will be worth a look at.
Hi Roger and Ken,
Yes I do understand that large masses require greater braking forces to stop them, but then that why they have much bigger brakes anyway.
As for caravan's I agree that the brakes are still of an antique design, but it has been discussed at length previously, and the braking performance of a car and caravan is usually quite similar to the solo vehicle - in a straight line. We do know that adding dampers does improve handling and braking in some conditions.
Incidentally, do you recall a system of braking that was used on commercial vehicles and many coaches that went by the trade name TELMAR. In essence it consisted of dynamo in the transmission line, and by exciting the cage, it caused eddy currents to run in the stator which applied a retardation effect. A local coach firm reckoned it saved several sets of brake pads and clutches, over the life of the vehicle. As t had no rubbing parts it never wore out.
I do wonder if a similar but smaller system could be fitted to a caravan wheels, and with modern control systems it could provide electronic braking and stability for caravans and other trailers.
I also know that HGV's are subject to even more testing than private cars, so there is less chance that the vehicle will be in a poor condition.
Statistically there are fewer accidents in HGV's than in cars, and yes the consequences are usually more severe, but the much lower frequency largely offsets it.
We should also expect that HGV drivers are professional in so far that they understand the dynamics of their vehicles, and will probably read the road conditions better than most car drivers, so they are less likely to take risks such as using high speeds where the conditions do not favour it.
As has been discussed not all classes of vehicle are allowed to attain the speed shown on the limits signs. As a car driver, I may not know that certain classes of vehicle are restricted, and when we come across one of then apparently travelling slowly because of their restriction. Car drivers are not aware because the restricted classes have not be publicised.
Yes I do understand that large masses require greater braking forces to stop them, but then that why they have much bigger brakes anyway.
As for caravan's I agree that the brakes are still of an antique design, but it has been discussed at length previously, and the braking performance of a car and caravan is usually quite similar to the solo vehicle - in a straight line. We do know that adding dampers does improve handling and braking in some conditions.
Incidentally, do you recall a system of braking that was used on commercial vehicles and many coaches that went by the trade name TELMAR. In essence it consisted of dynamo in the transmission line, and by exciting the cage, it caused eddy currents to run in the stator which applied a retardation effect. A local coach firm reckoned it saved several sets of brake pads and clutches, over the life of the vehicle. As t had no rubbing parts it never wore out.
I do wonder if a similar but smaller system could be fitted to a caravan wheels, and with modern control systems it could provide electronic braking and stability for caravans and other trailers.
I also know that HGV's are subject to even more testing than private cars, so there is less chance that the vehicle will be in a poor condition.
Statistically there are fewer accidents in HGV's than in cars, and yes the consequences are usually more severe, but the much lower frequency largely offsets it.
We should also expect that HGV drivers are professional in so far that they understand the dynamics of their vehicles, and will probably read the road conditions better than most car drivers, so they are less likely to take risks such as using high speeds where the conditions do not favour it.
As has been discussed not all classes of vehicle are allowed to attain the speed shown on the limits signs. As a car driver, I may not know that certain classes of vehicle are restricted, and when we come across one of then apparently travelling slowly because of their restriction. Car drivers are not aware because the restricted classes have not be publicised.
Morning Roger,
I'm still not getting my head round this "not publicised" bit, as all the limitations are publicised in the Highway Code and available for anyone interested enough to learn them.
Generally, if they are bigger or are towing, they will be slower and the degree of limitation should not be important as it does not matter whether a slower vehicle is travelling at a given speed due to a legal limitation, due to the load it is carrying, due to the drivers choice (economy/safety) or due to numerous other possibilities, we still need to adapt to that situation and overtake or not at our discretion.
I had not heard of TELMAR previously but it sounds an interesting, if not expensive prospect,
Ken.
Since the fuel prices increased I have been experimenting. At a genuine 55mph on the sat nav my diesel is turning over at 2000rpm. I have noticed a significant improvement in mpg , yet I haven't felt we get anywhere particularly more slowly than going faster.
Parksy is quite right about the speed / mpg thing.
Speeding may be ok for some and I am sure SS is fully capable to handle any problem that may arise whilst going at the speeds described.
But just think about the poor old caravan being shaken to bits and the additional windforce on the body shell adding to the wear and tear.
If people want to go fast , I don't care , but I am now watching my mpg and hopefully prolong the life of my caravan.
Cheers
Alan
Parksy is quite right about the speed / mpg thing.
Speeding may be ok for some and I am sure SS is fully capable to handle any problem that may arise whilst going at the speeds described.
But just think about the poor old caravan being shaken to bits and the additional windforce on the body shell adding to the wear and tear.
If people want to go fast , I don't care , but I am now watching my mpg and hopefully prolong the life of my caravan.
Cheers
Alan
Fuel consumption increases/decreases with the square of the speed - reducing from 60 to 56 will use 13% less fuel once you've got to cruising speed - as long as the engine remains in the torque band and stays in the same gear. Reducing the rate of acceleration will also help consumption considerably.
That's like a litre of diesel being reduced from
That's like a litre of diesel being reduced from
Alan,
A modern diesel engined car should operate at it's most economical when the engine revs are just at the start of the maximum torque "plateau"
Maximum torque should allow you to then drive using the highest gear. And for many modern turbo-diesel cars maximum torque should start at around 1700 revs (check your owners manual)
Coincidentally that may work out to be around 55 mph or so - now it may be possible to drive at a lower speed (say 50 mph) and stay in the highest gear - but you may need to drop a gear (and be less efficient) or compensate with an increased throttle position for the lower torque at lower engine speeds.
So it'd be an interesting check to tow at 60 mph and note the fuel consumption reported by the computer, then reduce to 55 mph, and again at 50 ... But you'll also want to remember the driveability of the car too...
Roger's right about the aerodynamic drag - doubling the speed quadruples the drag - but you should be aware that the 5 mph difference between 60 and 55 is much more significant than the same drop between 55 and 50...
Robert
A modern diesel engined car should operate at it's most economical when the engine revs are just at the start of the maximum torque "plateau"
Maximum torque should allow you to then drive using the highest gear. And for many modern turbo-diesel cars maximum torque should start at around 1700 revs (check your owners manual)
Coincidentally that may work out to be around 55 mph or so - now it may be possible to drive at a lower speed (say 50 mph) and stay in the highest gear - but you may need to drop a gear (and be less efficient) or compensate with an increased throttle position for the lower torque at lower engine speeds.
So it'd be an interesting check to tow at 60 mph and note the fuel consumption reported by the computer, then reduce to 55 mph, and again at 50 ... But you'll also want to remember the driveability of the car too...
Roger's right about the aerodynamic drag - doubling the speed quadruples the drag - but you should be aware that the 5 mph difference between 60 and 55 is much more significant than the same drop between 55 and 50...
Robert
Hello Ken,
I chose my word carefully, Yes the speed restrictions are published in the highway code, but they are not widely publicised or advertised or necessarily known by all drivers.
We are a parochial lot, and whilst a car driver may understand and know the limits for cars, after all they are put up at many junctions the majority would not know about the 40mph limit for lorries.
Just because its in the highway code, does not mean it is generally known to every driver,
I chose my word carefully, Yes the speed restrictions are published in the highway code, but they are not widely publicised or advertised or necessarily known by all drivers.
We are a parochial lot, and whilst a car driver may understand and know the limits for cars, after all they are put up at many junctions the majority would not know about the 40mph limit for lorries.
Just because its in the highway code, does not mean it is generally known to every driver,
From my home in the Midlands to my holiday CL in Devon (using the M5) my satnav tells me I will be only 19 minutes slower if I travel at a maximum speed of 55mph, instead of 60mph. The fuel saving obviously makes these few minutes irrelevant.
My oh my oh my!! What a storm in a teacup. It's been a while since I contributed to this thread and only just caught up with it now.
I have to say that I agree with Parksy, there's nowt wrong with travelling at 50-55 on the motorway and I very much doubt anyone would get done for "driving with undue hesitancy" at those speeds. Now, if it was someone driving at 30 on the motorway then yes, that's a different matter. I can see his point about saving fuel at those speeds and after all, it's only 5 to 10 mph slower than the maximum legal speed. It's hardly gonna make that much difference.
As for lorries being limited to 56, worra lorra crock. Having recently returned from a trip to Exmouth, I was thinking about about this thread while driving home on the M5 with several lorries overtaking me whilst I was driving between 55 and 60!! There is NO WAY lorries are limited to 56. Not all of them anyway. In fact, not many of them.
And I have SatNav too so I know I was doing 55-60.
I have to say that I agree with Parksy, there's nowt wrong with travelling at 50-55 on the motorway and I very much doubt anyone would get done for "driving with undue hesitancy" at those speeds. Now, if it was someone driving at 30 on the motorway then yes, that's a different matter. I can see his point about saving fuel at those speeds and after all, it's only 5 to 10 mph slower than the maximum legal speed. It's hardly gonna make that much difference.
As for lorries being limited to 56, worra lorra crock. Having recently returned from a trip to Exmouth, I was thinking about about this thread while driving home on the M5 with several lorries overtaking me whilst I was driving between 55 and 60!! There is NO WAY lorries are limited to 56. Not all of them anyway. In fact, not many of them.
And I have SatNav too so I know I was doing 55-60.
Where my husband works (you know where that is, Gary) ALL of their very large fleet of lorries are limited to 52 mph - it was 56 but they have recently been altered to 52. He says that in his experience most English lorries (including the green coloured fleet which attracts lots of anorak-type transport fans - another large fleet) are governed to 56 mph - foreign and Irish lorries are not, however. And, in any case, if the vehicle is going downhill, it can exceed the speed set by the limiter due to the momentum, particularly if loaded.
The lorries that passed you were most likely not English ones.
The lorries that passed you were most likely not English ones.
Travelling at an accurate 60mph solo on the single-carriageway A75 between Stranraer/Larne and Carlisle, I've been overtaken by Irish-registered HGVs. I've also been overtaken on the M25 by Belgian-registered artics doing 80+ in lane 3!
British-registered HGVs have 56mph limiters to comply with EC law - why doesn't EC law apply to all countries within the EC?
British-registered HGVs have 56mph limiters to comply with EC law - why doesn't EC law apply to all countries within the EC?
The law DOES apply to the other EC countries Roger, its just that as usual we seem to be the only ones that APPLY it. Much to the disadvantage of our home-grown industry.
A bit like fishing quotas............
A bit like fishing quotas............
Having just returned from a 100 mile trip, towing our ancient but roadworthy caravan with my Astra auto estate - both car and van well maintained, I read all these posts with interest.
I WAS going to sound off about overloaded cars (roof box, 3 kids, whole thing stuffed with luggage) trying to overtake and not being able to... There we were doing our best Pied Piper impression trailing the caravan and about 30 cars at about 45 mph on a winding Welsh A-road. I wasn't concerned because I knew there was an uphill dual carriageway stretch just ahead with a crawler lane for me and an overtaking lane for them.
Dual carriageway arrived and we stayed where we were - foot down to get up the hill. We hit 50mph. There was a great grinding of gears and the cars behind all pulled into the overtaking lane, engines roaring...but the first one couldn't get past... We raced neck and neck up the hill - or so it felt. As it got steeper, the Astra's gearbox started dropping gears, and our speed dropped - but so did the overloaded car next to me. Behind me was a vast empty space, but in the overtaking lane, the cars were bumper to bumper, honking like mad.
The overloaded car could neither get past, nor drop back to let the others past. As the road levelled a little they did get past and 20 others risked head on collisions getting by before the road narrowed again. And yes, I did slow a bit to let them do it.
My point is this - I was driving sensibly for the conditions, and only a little slower than I would have been without the van (I too have noticed the petrol svaings to be made by going a bit slower). The other drivers were so incensed by the sight of a caravan ahead that at least the first two in the queue behaved incredibly stupidly.
No matter how fast or slow we drive with our caravans, the others are all convinced that they MUST get past, however risky it is. I have noticed the asme behaviour when on a bike - people are convinced that they are going faster...even when they clearly aren't. Let others take the risks, and let us do the sensible stuff - and avoid the accident - please.
Lz
I WAS going to sound off about overloaded cars (roof box, 3 kids, whole thing stuffed with luggage) trying to overtake and not being able to... There we were doing our best Pied Piper impression trailing the caravan and about 30 cars at about 45 mph on a winding Welsh A-road. I wasn't concerned because I knew there was an uphill dual carriageway stretch just ahead with a crawler lane for me and an overtaking lane for them.
Dual carriageway arrived and we stayed where we were - foot down to get up the hill. We hit 50mph. There was a great grinding of gears and the cars behind all pulled into the overtaking lane, engines roaring...but the first one couldn't get past... We raced neck and neck up the hill - or so it felt. As it got steeper, the Astra's gearbox started dropping gears, and our speed dropped - but so did the overloaded car next to me. Behind me was a vast empty space, but in the overtaking lane, the cars were bumper to bumper, honking like mad.
The overloaded car could neither get past, nor drop back to let the others past. As the road levelled a little they did get past and 20 others risked head on collisions getting by before the road narrowed again. And yes, I did slow a bit to let them do it.
My point is this - I was driving sensibly for the conditions, and only a little slower than I would have been without the van (I too have noticed the petrol svaings to be made by going a bit slower). The other drivers were so incensed by the sight of a caravan ahead that at least the first two in the queue behaved incredibly stupidly.
No matter how fast or slow we drive with our caravans, the others are all convinced that they MUST get past, however risky it is. I have noticed the asme behaviour when on a bike - people are convinced that they are going faster...even when they clearly aren't. Let others take the risks, and let us do the sensible stuff - and avoid the accident - please.
Lz
Hi Soozeeg,
I know what you meant but just thought I'd let you know;....
Technically momentum is the product of mass x velocity, and will remain the same unless acted upon by an external force. So the increase in speed downhill is not due to momentum, but the effect of the force of gravity acting on the vehicle mass resulting in an increase in momentum.
Cheers
many a time we will be driving along with the caravan in tow and other caravaners will over take us at speed, its just stupid,
some even have children in the back seat of the car and others will be speeding along and the caravan is jumping all over the place,
my husband also does a steady 50-60mph he wont over take unless its safe to do so,
we always say we would rather get there late than not at all.
some even have children in the back seat of the car and others will be speeding along and the caravan is jumping all over the place,
my husband also does a steady 50-60mph he wont over take unless its safe to do so,
we always say we would rather get there late than not at all.
The speed limit for towing is 60mph on the motorway no excuses, if the weather is poor then reduce accordingly, even when driving solo on the motorway i rarely touch 70mph even going to work, the faster you drive the more difficult it is to control a vehicle in event of a blow out etc, you never know what's ahead of you. Even at high speeds fully trained police drivers can struggle to control a vehicle
Interesting topic, took me a while to get through all the posts (slow reader).
I agree with one of the post there is is difference between speeding and towing safely.
In the UK we tow from anything btween 58 to 67 mph on M/ways of course. If we feel safe at 67mph that is our safe speed. We do overtake other vans and see no problem with that but, we do slow down when passing HGVs as tht is not safe.
In France we tow at 65 to 75 (there m/ways are better than our considerably) if at 75 we feel safe then that's ok, we have at one time towed at 80mph in france. But brought it back to 75mph feeling that that was safer for us.
It is not neccessarily that towing at higher speeds is unsafe with the cars and vans of today, but how , where and when you do it with the conditions at the time, I believe.
What annoys me is the assumption of car drivers towards caravanners, that we are incompetant drivers.
My worse pet hate is one the m/way cars who pass you and pull in either cutting you up to get off at the slip road or just pull in infront of you with 6 feet to spare. Hand on horn and lights on full beam at that point.
I agree with one of the post there is is difference between speeding and towing safely.
In the UK we tow from anything btween 58 to 67 mph on M/ways of course. If we feel safe at 67mph that is our safe speed. We do overtake other vans and see no problem with that but, we do slow down when passing HGVs as tht is not safe.
In France we tow at 65 to 75 (there m/ways are better than our considerably) if at 75 we feel safe then that's ok, we have at one time towed at 80mph in france. But brought it back to 75mph feeling that that was safer for us.
It is not neccessarily that towing at higher speeds is unsafe with the cars and vans of today, but how , where and when you do it with the conditions at the time, I believe.
What annoys me is the assumption of car drivers towards caravanners, that we are incompetant drivers.
My worse pet hate is one the m/way cars who pass you and pull in either cutting you up to get off at the slip road or just pull in infront of you with 6 feet to spare. Hand on horn and lights on full beam at that point.
i drive much the same as smiley ,if conditions are bad i slow right down , but on the southern french motorways with the road to myself i have towed at 80 MPH , and feel quite comfortable , i have had a puncture at 60 MPH i just pulled over onto the hard shoulder as steady as a rock ,the tyre was ripped to shreds , i even took a photo of it ,
"Speed per se is not ever a problem"
Not ever?
The dynamic collision forces during a cross-over head-on accident are much higher at 70mph than at 60mph - the braking distances which might help avoid such accidents is also much greater at higher speeds.
Not ever?
The dynamic collision forces during a cross-over head-on accident are much higher at 70mph than at 60mph - the braking distances which might help avoid such accidents is also much greater at higher speeds.
Hi Craig,
There are too many nitwits speeding up and down the motorways. Like you I tow between 55-60mph. One must also remember that the speed limit on motorways and dual carriage ways is 60mph, in any case I feel more in control keeping the speed to around 55mph.
We have a new X-Trail and went up to Northumberland, unless I kept a very close eye on the speedo I found that occasionally I was getting above 60mph, a gentle ease off the throttle and back to safety. With disabled hubby and elderly cat in her cage, cannot afford to have accidents. Too much damage to them and anyone else.
Keep at 55-6omph.
Margaret W.
There are too many nitwits speeding up and down the motorways. Like you I tow between 55-60mph. One must also remember that the speed limit on motorways and dual carriage ways is 60mph, in any case I feel more in control keeping the speed to around 55mph.
We have a new X-Trail and went up to Northumberland, unless I kept a very close eye on the speedo I found that occasionally I was getting above 60mph, a gentle ease off the throttle and back to safety. With disabled hubby and elderly cat in her cage, cannot afford to have accidents. Too much damage to them and anyone else.
Keep at 55-6omph.
Margaret W.
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