the end of the caravan industry is nigh

[caravanoracle]

I was reading what a customer had wrote on the forum

"For example I know people who are willing to wait weeks and months when they order a new car. When I do so, I will have the car within 3 days or I will go else where (a Ford dealer should have every Ford model in stock, same with caravan dealers for a particular make, and if they don't they should be willing to compensate you by slashing the price)!"

most dealers try and keep up back up stock of the most popular models and not the worst selling models. But the dealer cannot win in this day and age of the old nutmeg "compensation/trading standards". When they don't have a model in stock then they are in the wrong and when its late its "what are you going to knock off?" and if they do have it in stock, its "not a factory fresh model, so how much are you knocking off if its not new?"

After being in this industry for 19yrs I'm so p****d off with unscrupulous and deceitful customers who will try anything to make their wallets fatter and sod the dealer.

So if your dealer isnt there tomorrow or next year, then there is usually one reason for it, the customer kicking the crap out of them at every opportunity, whether its their fault or not. Then the manufacturers generally don't give a toss either and get to hide behind trading standards as the contract is with the dealer!

This is a very small cottage industry, made worse by the manufacturers who are untouchable, and dealers no matter how hard they try, or how good they are, are simply not supported at all. Then add to the fact that a large percentage of customers have a grudge the minute they walk onto site and are looking for a fight, I would say the industry is doomed. I would say in the next couple of years there would be at least half the number of dealers as there is today, and instead of maybe driving 30 miles for a caravan, you may be driving 130 miles.

Just a thought, but a sobering one at that!

 

[trucker]

Hey C - O id go and get a beer, after the day you seem to have had, we all get them then tomarow looks better. I do think though what you say about customers is the sign of the times it seems that most people just want to fatten their wallet and sod the rest in all walks of life not just the caravan forecourt, sad really

 

[Auvergne]

Works both ways mate - we paid damned good money for a brand new Coachman and had one problem after another and not small problems either. Dealer didn't want to know.........

 

[Alex_374373826]

Maybe the end of the car industry is the same. My wife has a Peugeot 107 and so far I have taken it to the dealership to get them to fix the very inaccurate fuel guage. This saga has been going on over 4 months while they get the parts. Interestingly I have to go back a 4th time as they broke a fixing on the rear seat and they do not have it in stock! The fuel guage still has to be checked (but in any event I will give that a miss).

The Caravan thing is the same and I think that we all just want service - to know that the parts are on the way and that someone gives a damn.

If you, Caravan Oracle as a dealer who cares, where to disguise your name then I am sure there will be those who come to your defence. If you take the very real example of the 107 above, then is it any wonder that the car industry is in the dire state that it is. Conversely Caravan manufacturers say they have had a good year so far, thus some one must be doing parts of it right?

 

[Icemaker]

You have obviousley had more than your share of non straight forward dealings from the sound of things but you have to understand that its a buyers market and if you are not willing to give the best deal possible then people will go elsewhere and they will pass on theire experiance to others.

i used the same dealer in derbyshire every time i wanted a new van but on the last occasion two years ago they where unable to supply me with a new coachman vip unless i took theire golden dealer special version, unfortunately we found the colour of the upholstery to be horible and asked if they could supply a factory standard model,. the sales man explained that a factory model would take 3 months to arrive and would be

 

[Lutz]

Surely the customer has a right to look for the best deal going. If it's worth travelling 130 miles or even further, so be it.

 

[caravanoracle]

I must also add that today I was arguing with a manufacturer for 20 minutes that a part, which they insisted I had received, I had not. It took an hour to sort this out and when I asked them for a signature from the courier they couldn't supply it. An hour later after me ringing them again they said that the part had been returned to them by the courier. At this point was there a sorry forthcoming? No!

When we chase warranty claims with a manufacturer we are told they are dealing with it and this may be 2 weeks after submitting it. Then if it is a factory part ie not truma, whale, dometic etc because I stock all these, we then have to wait 6-8 weeks for the parts. Then sometimes more often than not either the parts are wrong or damaged and we start all over again, no urgency from the manufacturers. When you ring to complain you get every excuse under the sun and again never a sorry.

Then what do we get when we tell the customer, an earful for something out of our control and what compensation can we give them. When we tell the manufacturers how the customer feels do we get any support NO, and we are told don't give them our number.

Its getting more and more difficult for the dealer when the product is usually fault, the components are supplied by the lowest bidder, you get no support and the customer expectations of the caravan are higher than the actual truth.

Its no wonder that smaller dealers are giving up selling new caravans and sticking to used stock. At least this way you are in control and not reliant on other parties.

 

[caravanoracle]

I have saved the best bits till last, warranty. The manufacturers have a list of what parts are covered and for what period of time. Surprisingly in most cases this doesn't meet trading standards. So when a claim is submitted and rejected because that part is out of warranty, guess who usually pays..the dealer because they don't want the aggravation and know there's a good chance they will loose if it goes to court. The used warranty schemes are not much better and they will wriggle out of any claim given half a chance stating fear wear and tear, natural deterioration or customer abuse. You name it, they have an excuse.

Then if you are lucky enough to get any claim passed by either the manufacturer or warranty company they don't want to pay the time needed to fix the problem and wont even pay your normal hourly rate. So they cut back your hours and refuse to pay your labour rate and their answer is...the customer will have to pay the shortfall. Oh yes that little gem goes down well when you tell the customer.

In these difficult financial times when people are careful with their spending and dealers are doing their very best to stay in business and god forbid they want a profit, dealers are trying to encourage spending by cutting prices and having sales. So what do the manufacturers do to help the business and support their dealers....they put their prices UP. So a dealer is now paying more for a caravan and selling it for less. How long do the manufacturers think the dealers can ran a business like this, the simple answer, in most cases, they don't give a stuff as long as they are selling more and making money. How dare a dealer want to make a profit.

It`s such a farce, but don't get me wrong, I love working in this industry. If I didn't I wouldn't have stay in it now for 19yrs, but please spare a thought for the dealer who is genuinely trying hard, looking after customers and offering good aftersales because it is getting harder and harder to have the same compassion and conviction when it seems no-one gives a s**t.

And if you think this is a rant after a bad day, its not. Infact I have had a good day today, its reading the forums like this one that gets me really p****d off. It appears like the forums now are just a faceless way of slagging off dealers and other people offering bad advice and fuelling a customer to have another argument with their dealer. Its simply anonymous s**t stirring at its best.

 

[Sam_374394490]

Personally, and most definitely speaking from experience.

I would much rather pay more for a caravan, and purchase it from a reputable dealer who I know is going to give me both excellent customer service and excellent after sales service.

You cannot put a price on this.

The cheapest way is definitely not the best way.

Unfortunately, I learnt the hard way and have learned a great lesson from it.

 

[Maru_374416209]

Here's another thought.

Customers beat the salesman for the lowest price and go from one dealer to another in their quest.

The dealer has to sell - he's got stock and he needs the cash flow, he has overheads and wages to pay.

Can the dealer go to the manufacturer and get an extra discount to help with his lost margin ?

Or is it always the dealer who foots the loss.

How much profit is there in a caravan anyway ?

What is a resonable amount it should be ?

Or are the prices fixed in stone by the manufacturers to the dealers so they will not help out with an extra discount.

Any ideas anyone ?

 

[Maru_374416209]

Works both ways mate - we paid damned good money for a brand new Coachman and had one problem after another and not small problems either. Dealer didn't want to know.........

Perhaps if you had let the dealer earn a decent profit he might be more willing to help you.

Bet you drove a hard bargin

 

[colin(bridgend)]

HELP WHERE AM I GOING WRONG - I must be the exception to all this wheeler/dealer business as I have not experienced any problems so far (touch wood). I have bought two new Bailey Ranger 500/5 from Sunnyhaven Caravans in Swansea and yes there have been minor problems with both vans after delivery. However on approaching both Sunnyhaven and now Caravanmaster in Talbot Green who carry out all servicing/repairs etc. on behalf of the dealer (closer to my home than Swansea) there has been no problems with either of these two companies or Bailey. All necessary warranty work is completed within the time stated and with no quibble.

 

[Damian]

Reading the thoughts of Caravan Oracle I can only agree with him and support his overview of the current situation.

Manufacturers simply do not hold stock of anything any more, so any parts specific to their model have to be ordered to be delivered on the next production schedule.

As for warranty work, generally the unit manufacturers set a price to repair an item "on the bench", that is with the faulty item in front of you easily accessable, they do not factor in the time and difficulty of actually getting the item out of the van in the first place, which in some cases can take several hours work to get out, and several more to put back, these costs are borne by the dealer or workshop.

What is even worse is when a customer just does not tell the truth about what happened to their faulty item, like saying th ewater heater WAS full of water when switched on, but when the element is removed for change it is very obvious that it was anything but full.

Or,the fridge does not work on mains, but failing to say that it has been run 24/7 for the last 3 or 4 months, failing to remember that a caravan is a "Recreational Leisure Vehicle" , it is NOT a full time habitable unit.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Whilst I have sympathy with the issues that Caravan Oracle highlights, I cannot ignore the fact that in the UK, it is the dealer/retailer that has the legal responsibility to supply goods that are fit for purpose and free from material defect to the end user. This is an established principal and it is one of the risks that any retailer has to accommodate in their business plans.

It should also be part of the business plan to establish strategies about buying goods (in this caravans) that the supplier has to ensure that the supplied goods are to an acceptable standard, with set criteria to enable the buyer to confirm the goods are of satisfactory standard, and in the event that goods do not conform that there is an agreed procedure to rectify or reject the supplied goods - even in some cases to make the supplier liable for consequential losses.

The dealer should be able to refuse to accept a caravan from the supplier if it is non conforming. If they did so the number of defects that get through to the end user would reduce.

The problem is compounded by dealers that agree to undertake a PDI which in effect is a quality inspection of the manufacturers work, and then to undertake repairs, rather than rejecting the caravan back to the manufacture. This process lets the manufactures off the hook with regards to proper production control. Not only is the manufacture relieved of this vital function, it puts feedback in such a long loop that the impact and importance of the defects is diluted and many of the smaller niggles are never reported back to the manufacture for evaluation. World class manufacturers recognise that any defect that get though to the end user costs many time more to put right than getting right first time. It also impact the brands public relations.

Sadly the caravan manufactures have got away with this dreadfully poor way of dealing with quality control, that it has become ingrained into the way the businesses operate as to be considered a tradition. It needs the dealers to start to challenge this methodology and to start to assert their needs for goods to be supplied in merchantable condition, and to reject non conforming goods back to their suppliers.

It is time that the caravan industry as a whole steps up to the mark and recognise that unless they begin to listen properly to their customers, their customer will go elsewhere.

 

[Parksy]

I also agree with many of the points put forward by Caravan Oracle and it's fairly obvious that caravan buyers are becoming very hard to please and yes, there are those out there who will try to grind a dealer into the dust.

It's good to see the other side of the coin and we should perhaps all bear in mind that the dealer must be profitable in order for his business to survive to be around to service our caravans in the future.

I think however that the points raised about forums such as this one are grossly unfair. Caravan Oracle wrote:

'And if you think this is a rant after a bad day, its not. Infact I have had a good day today, its reading the forums like this one that gets me really p****d off. It appears like the forums now are just a faceless way of slagging off dealers and other people offering bad advice and fuelling a customer to have another argument with their dealer. Its simply anonymous s**t stirring at its best.'

I can't speak for other forums Caravan oracle but I can assure you that the moderators of this forum do not allow the faceless slagging off of dealers' or 'anonymous s**t stirring at it's best' We rigidly apply the rules of this forum, we do not allow dealers to be 'named' whether they are good bad or indifferent.

Personally speaking if in my judgement a forum member has overstepped the mark in their comments about a dealer I have deleted the comment and contacted the forum member concerned.

This has sometimes made me as popular as a turd in a lucky dip with certain forum members but we try to be fair and to behave responsibly. I've even contacted dealers via email off the forum where a genuine misunderstanding has taken place and they've been glad that I've bought these matters to their attention and they've acted to put matters right.

Don't shoot the messenger Caravan Oracle, you have as much right to put your viewpoint across as any other member or manufacturer and forums and online communication will eventually raise standards all round, even amongst buyers. There are many responsible owners on this forum who balance out the odd maverick.

You wrote earlier that the caravan industry is a cottage industry but imho cottage industry prices don't apply to the product. Unfortunately for some manufacturers and dealers, those who use this forum excepted, the days when buyers would be fobbed off and have to check the quality of a caravan by using it instead of getting the p.d.i. that they paid for are numbered because of the instant communication available these days. If a buyer has a genuine grievance and for whatever reason has been let down either by a dealer or a manufacturer he's bound to want to talk about it.

 

[Dustydog]

Hi Caravan Oracle,

I hope you have had a good night's sleep and are fully refreshed for I trust a more relaxing day.

Everything you say has echoes of all my past gripes and indeed those of many others on this forum.

I am a customer who has worked hard for his money and wants a caravan for pleasure . I don't want all the hassle that a lot of people seem to suffer.

John L quite correctly points out the consumer protections now afforded to the buying customer. Why did this come about we may well ask? Unscrupulous dealers I am afraid.

There is no question of doubt that dealers vary wildly around the country. There is a thread on here where we can name good dealers but NOT bad because Lord Hezza may get sued. That starts the confrontation but we all know the forum rules must be adhered to. One bad experience is not necessarily indicative if a bad dealer.

In my neck of the woods there are two dealers who stand out as superb.

Chipping Sodbury Caravans

Swindon Caravans

Finally I suspect most of C O s problems emanate from very poor QA & QC withing the manufacturers own factories. Until this aspect is improved dealers like CO will continue to get bashed.

Surely all the dealers can bring pressure to bear on the manufacturers to improve QA & QC??

CO have a good day mate .

Cheers

Dustydog

 

[caravanoracle]

John L,

i agree in principle about dealers rejecting caravans, but in principle it doesnt work. in a lot of cases when a caravan arrives for a customer it is already late and past its delivery date. so what happens to the customer when we reject a caravan, in most cases they quite rightly want there deposit back so that they may try and buy the same model from another dealer.

so rejecting caravans does not make good business sense for the dealer. if there are numerous faults we simply have to put them right during PDI rather than loosing the sale and in most cases at a lost revenue, and this is a point that most manufacturers know and use to their advantage.

i have personally rejected a few caravans over the years but simply because the faults found on delivery are just too bad, or virtually impossible to repair to an acceptable standard by the dealer. and boy has this caused some major problems. holidays booked etc. again damned if you do, damned if you dont.

 

[neila1]

from my point of view customer servive and getting it right first time is more important than price, so if sending a caravan back and losing one or two customers is not good sense then when the vans that arrive are on the ball the customers will soon get to know get a van from ???????? they come already niggle free as they won't except vans that have not been passed first.

well to me i'd pay more and travel further for a dealer like that.

at the end of the day even you co want what you pay for it should do what it says on the tin as they say.

and like anything else it only takes one or two bad dealers to get them all a bad name,

the good dealers will always have return customers and word of mouth

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Caravan Oracle,

In my earlier response I recognised that the trade had evolved a number of traditions that run counter to good commercial interaction. The tardiness of delivery and the poor condition of some caravans when they do arrive (and I have seen some at dealers just of the transport) is frankly unacceptable.

It is for this reason amongst others that the concept of consequential losses should be considered as part of your order placing with the manufacture. There is nothing like a financial hit to make owners of manufactures focus on the quality or service and products.

It is in both the customers and the dealers interests to raise the manufacturers awareness of ALL faults.

 

[Zafiral]

We have bought two brand new caravans one this year and one in 2006

In 2006 we as caravan newbies we were quickly shown around the van with a 'this switch does this, this switch does that attitude'. When we phoned with a query a month or so later and asked for our salesman we were told he had left, so perhaps the handover was not representitive of the standard from that dealer, but who knows.

When we arrived to pick up our second van from a different dealer (both were manufacturer authorised), we saw our van with water and electric connected. We feared the worst assuming that the PDI was still ongoing, but no we were then shown absolutely everything in full order and as we were trading in a 3 year old similar van it was clear we were not beginners.

We now also have a 10% discount card to use in any of the dealer's accessory shops.

Through the forum rules I cannot name the first dealer, but the 2nd dealer was Chichester Caravans Ukfield branch.

Guess where I will go back to in future.

 

[WilliamLX]

Oracle seems to have taken great exception to what I wrote. If he is a Caravan dealer does he not realise that he is working in a service industry, and therefore his job is to provide a service to his customers? I fully realize that not all caravans are equally popular and not all dealers will have as much room for storage etc, however as a customer when I go along to buy a caravan I do not expect to have to wait weeks/months to buy a caravan sight unseen. There are posts on here showing the folly of that. I want to be able to walk in, see the caravan I am going to shell out my money on (to make sure it is not full of damaged trim, non functional electrics etc). When I bought my Bailey, my dealer had it in stock. I was able to see the small number of minor problems, highlight these to the dealer and make it part of the contract of sale that these would be repaired before I handed over my money and took delivery.

As far as parts go, sure again you might get the odd van on which something unusual fails. In that case it is acceptable that the customer should have to wait for a part to be sent from the manufacturer (but if this is a significant delay or is something that seriously impacts on the use of the caravan, an equivalent van should be lent to the customer). However I suspect that certain items are far more likely to fail than others, and with these, the dealer SHOULD have these in stock, available for immediate repair.

A lot of the problems stem from the manufacturers, but dealers are not with out blame. The UK caravan industry acts like, and treats customers in a way which is reminiscent of the car industry 30-40 years ago. The situation with cars has improved (although still is not perfect) and it is high time the same was true for caravans. One of my major gripes is that you have to return to the dealer where you purchased to get servicing and warranty work done (fine if you are lucky and have a good dealer)! With a car you can take it to any official dealer for the brand to have a warranty repair carried out - why not for caravans??? This is something the manufacturers need to address when defining their relationship with dealers.

Finally I am happy to pay a price for a caravan that allows both the manufacturer and dealer to make a profit, but I am not willing to pay for bad service, and as far as I am concerned one of the worst sins a service industry can commit is to keep customers waiting for the service!

 

[Zafiral]

William

I feel that you are expecting too much to expect a dealer to hold every permutation of caravan available.

In 2006 when we bought our 1st caravan it was 3-4 months wait for a new van (if the dealer hadn't already sold his year's allocation) and this was in May!!! We ended up buying the dealer demo as he had already sold his allocation and we had to travel 130 miles to even find one.

In 2009 times are different, we were able to buy a new van from stock, but a dealer is only going to pre order vans they are pretty confident they are going to move on quickly as new MY and other little tweaks only devalue the vans that the dealers have in stock.

The volumes of the car industry and the caravan industry are very different so caravans are built in batches so if you just miss the build date, for a factory fresh order you will have to wait months unfortunately.

 

[WilliamLX]

Zafiral,

I appreciate the difference in the size of the car and caravan industries, but that does not excuse people bing made to wait weeks and months either for a new van or even more so for repairs. As I said in my first post, if we caravaners were not so willing to live with this bad service you can bet things would be better. The general public as consumers are our own worst enemy in many fields. How many time do you see people in filling their car at a filling station that is charging significantly more than another station a short distance away? This is madness and it only encourages profiteering by the fuel industry. The reason we are still paying around

 

[caravanoracle]

william,

you do NOT have to return to the supplying dealer for either servicing or warranty repairs. manufacturers no allow you to use any NCC Approved caravan workshop for servicing and you can use any warranty approved workshop for warranty repairs. the problem that some customers experience is because dealers have no contractual agreement to service or repair caravan bought elsewhere, some dealers are so busy looking after their own customers they simply cant take on any new business.

i personally never turn any customer away but the problem is my waiting time usually runs at approx 4 weeks, but on saying that if one of my own customer has a problem we will either talk through repairs step by step for simple problems with the customer, or get the caravan in within a couple of days if the repair is a safety issue, or the problem does not allow the use of the caravan.

as regards parts most good dealers will carry a stock of current production, regular failing parts and parts which are generic between manufacturers. this could be light units, fridge parts, truma fire and water heater parts, light cluster etc. but there is no dealer i have worked with over my 19yrs that stock windows, furniture, exterior mouldings, panels, worktops, sinks vanity units, shower trays, upholstry. this is because they have so many variations between models and years, infact the manufacturers who have a more substancial funds than the dealers for stocking these type of parts dont.

you cannot compare the caravan trade to the motor industry for purely ecconomical reasons. at last count there was approx 500,000 caravans in use in the uk and 100,000,000. there will be approx 25,000 new caravan sales this year in the uk from all the manufacturers. its just simple maths.

and its NOT the dealers making the customer wait for delivery, it has always been the manufacturers. the dealers would love to be able to order a caravan for a customer and deliver it next week, but unless they have already ordered an amount beforehand, it is not possible. and then you could be ordering 5 of A, 10 of B, 6 of C, but it is a calculated risk if you have got your order correct. what might be very popular this season may not be in 6mths time, and if you have ordered lots which dont sell, the your in deep s**t.

and generally NO there is no discounts from manufacturers. you either want to buy them or not, and if you dont want them another dealer will. the manufacturers have you by the short and curlys and generally dont give a stuff about the dealers. all the manufacturers want is to SELL caravans, and nothing else matters to them.

 

[Dustydog]

Caravan Oracle said:-

" the manufacturers have you by the short and curlys and generally dont give a stuff about the dealers. all the manufacturers want is to SELL caravans, and nothing else matters to them"

What a sad state of affairs . If true it's made me wonder if I want anymore British caravans. But then I suppose the Europeans are no different.

What do Swift , Bailey et al have to say?

Cheers

Dustydog