The NCC and Their Role in Caravan Design & Manufacturing Standards.

[TheTravellingRooster]

Hi to you all out there. This is a general
question/suggestion/possible NEW COURSE of ACTION with regards to
effective direction/directions when complaints are not being taken
on-board.

How many of you either know the Terms and Conditions of The Sale of Goods Act or have an up-to-date copy of it?
I
firmly believe that everyone who invests money in new products and
especially those who invest in a brand new caravan should have
one,either supplied by the dealer or downloaded as a reference for the potential need.

The caravan manufacturing industry and all who are spin-offs/dependent upon it appear at times to be so complacent about the need for customers and their role in Continuity of Business.

Caravan manufacturers possibly need reminding and one in-particular appears to be more in-need than others.

The NCC is reportedly a TRADE ORGANISATION,put simplistically,it is a CLUB for THE BOYS of THE CARAVAN MANUFACTURING TRADE.
This club needs one very very vital and non acclaimed member; US, the caravan buying public.

Caravanning is an expensive enough option/hobby/interest,so don't let it be your path to ill health and worry.

The pecking order when it comes to complaints is :
Firstly the supplying dealer.
That dealer either deals with it and resolves it or it has to be
referred back to the manufacturer. The key with major issues lies
entirely with them;in the first instance.
If there is no
progress with the supplying dealer, then the screw has then got to be
turned and in-turn they should/would refer back to the manufacturer.
When the manufacturer buries it's head in pools of complacency and refuses to do the honourable thing
and especially when the complaints/issues are well documented and
contested by the owner of the products,it is time for more decisive
action.

This is where,whether they like it or not The NCC must become involved.
All
of those who have an ongoing and as yet unresolved and or recent issue
that they have elected to 'Give-Up On with the one and unnamed
manufacturer should be contacting the NCC.
It is your
money,your sanity and your right to have satisfaction with unfair
treatment by a company;before it is really too late.

 

[otherclive]

I agree that the first port of call is the supplying dealer, if then no joy try the manufactuer, but then its back to the dealer using the SOGA and backed up by your intent to use the small claims court or if necessary formal rejection of the product. You'll never get a trade body to support a grievance unless it set up an independent ombudsman type service.

 

[ProfJohnL]

The NCC and Their Role in Caravan Design & Manufacturing Standards.

Hello Rooster
To answer your headline title:-

I think your headline on this thread is misleading, You are clearly again airing a complaint about one manufacture and have made no reference in your text to The NCC's Role in Caravan Design & Manufacturing Standards.

I think you do not understand the role of the NCC or its powers.

Essentially the NCC has no legal powers to force a manufacture into any particular course of action. The worst the NCC can do is to refuse or rescind membership of the NCC.

Membership of the NCC is not compulsory for caravan businesses, and caravans manufactured in the UK do not have to have NCC approval.

So what is the NCC? By their own published information they are a Trade Only Association funded by the trade for the trade, whose purpose is to provide an industry wide voice to lobby for the interests of the business they represent.

This extends to canvassing legislators to encourage them to create, adopt, hinder, modify or remove legislation to the maximum benefit of their members. Notably this excludes the end users interests.

They also have a number of minority seats on various technical committees (relevant to to the caravan industry) who are tasked with reviewing and recommending and translating standards to be adopted by parliament.

The NCC has no policing or enforcement role for standards. They cannot prosecute a company for non compliance.

The NCC is essentially a toothless dog. It has no formal interest in the consumer, and it cannot take up consumer complaints if it did get involved it would almost certainly take on the side of the manufacturer, as the manufacturers tell it what to do, not the other way round.

You may get the impression I think NCC is useless, Not so, It does play a useful role, and whilst it may not be customer focused, sometimes what is good for business can be good for the consumer.

 

[Parksy]

I concur with the opinion of Prof John L.
The NCC is not a consumer organisation, it is a trade organisation and does not represent the interests of the caravan buying public.
In the event of a dispute with regard to touring caravan quality or fitness for purpose the case should first be brought to the attention of the supplier if the caravan was bought from a commercial dealer.
If the dealer disputes the claim the customer should remind the dealer of their legal obligations under the terms of the SOGA.
If the claim is not settled to the customers satisfaction the customer should seek legal advice from a qualified legal representative, not the NCC who are a commercial organisation which represents the interests of caravan manufacturers, dealerships and approved service centres.
One of the stated aims of the NCC is to deliver best practice to the customer but they do not deal with owners on an individual basis This is what they do

 

[ProfJohnL]

Now dealing with the body of your posting, you have misinterpreted the rules governing SoGA.

To put it quite simply, your recourse for any action always falls on your seller. The manufacturer (assuming they are not the retail seller) has no contract with you under the sale of the goods, and cannot direct how the outcome of any SoGA claim should go.

If as you claim the caravan has a defined and recognised fault (a point you claim in other threads), then the dealer is responsible because they have sold faulty goods.

That is all you need to invoke SoGA.

If the dealer does not accept the situation and they try to refer it back to the manufacture, then the manufacture is acting as a subcontractor to the dealer. The subcontractors response or opinion cannot supersede the dealer's responsibilities under SoGA.

If you have been sold a caravan with an identified fault then sue the dealer.

However, assuming your comments relate to the situation you have expressed elsewhere, then the caravan is more than 6 months old and it becomes your responsibility to provide the necessary evidence to convince a court, that on the 'balance of probability' (the test in civil actions) the design fault was present at the point of sale.

If you have evidence that shows the manufacturer admits there is a design fault, then it should be an easy matter to invoke SoGA against the seller. How the seller resolves it with their supplier is of no legal concern to you, though it would be nice to think the message gets back to the manufacturer.

I do agree with you that it seems in general people do not understand SoGA and how to use it. If more people were to invoke its protection, sellers would become more challenging to their suppliers to ensue the quality and suitability of the goods they retail were really up to the job.

If sellers were more reluctant to accept shoddy goods from their suppliers, that pressure would work its way back through the supply chain ultimately to manufacturers and designers.

By attempting to take the fight directly to the manufacturer short cuts the process, and lets any of the intermediates off the hook for handling faulty goods. Yet they make a profit even though faulty goods are supplied. In the eyes of the law, they are just as culpable, as they are not ensuring goods they supply are fit for purpose.

By using SoGA you are helping to purge supply chains of dodgy dealings.

Now we know you are very upset with the situation concerning your caravan, but raising it all the time is not helping your situation, and could be construed as running an aggravated vendetta against the manufacture. Even if they admit there is a fault, they have no contract with you to effect a remedy, that still lies with your seller.

 

[Surfer]

Perhaps Rooster can let us know why he is banging on about NCC, manufacturers etc. Has his caravan fallen apart?

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

Hi to you all out there,again.
Just for the record,my Post Title was intended to be rhetorical.
I know perfectly well that The NCC has no direct hand in the design & or manufacture of touring caravans or for that matter anything that is under the canopy of their title.

I am also quite familiar with the terms of The Sale of Goods Act albeit I cannot quote it verbatim as indeed I have learned with other pieces of the written word.
I am also aware of the fact that the customer/end user has no direct access to the manufacturer of the product,unless of course they are the ones that make,market and sell/distribute their own product/products.

I have recently skimmed through the PDF entitled: Tourer Sales -- Code of Practice that is available on the NCC website.
The 3rd part of the sentence that is actually the second paragraph makes for interesting reading. It leads me to believe that this is essentially for the customer/end user and possibly as redress against the dealer and actually has very little to do with redress directly towards the manufacturer of the goods that are in contention.

In response to the suggestion/inference that I have one particular manufacturer in mind,that might well be the case,as there is an ongoing issue being discussed on another forum albeit as previously stated; it is not in direct relationship to my own caravan,but there-again my own is blighted with the same issue.

The one major difference to the others,again already pointed out,my caravan has not been owned by me from new,I am the second owner of a 2001 example and I took ownership in late July of 2010. As such,I have no standing in the equation.
The post as originally pointed out is of a more general nature and is in respect of bad/poor design/manufacturing practices across the board and specific to touring caravans.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Our vision is for a self-regulated, efficient and competitive UK market and industry that treats consumers fairly, delivers high levels of customer satisfaction and provides full protection and access to redress should this be needed.

Hello Rooster,

The statement's inclusion and its wording hints to me that the NCC recognises that the trade is often resistant to acceding to customers rights.

Such a statement should not be necessary if the industry was fully customer friendly.

It certainly is not an invitation for customers to involve the NCC in retail disputes. Not that they would get involved anyway.

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

Our vision is for a self-regulated, efficient and competitive UK market and industry that treats consumers fairly, delivers high levels of customer satisfaction and provides full protection and access to redress should this be needed.

Hello Rooster,

The statement's inclusion and its wording hints to me that the NCC recognises that the trade is often resistant to acceding to customers rights.

Such a statement should not be necessary if the industry was fully customer friendly.

It certainly is not an invitation for customers to involve the NCC in retail disputes. Not that they would get involved anyway.

Hi Prof John L. This is not and never has been about The NCC getting involved in Retail Disputes and it is most certainly not about my specific caravan issue with the manufacturer of the van. It is about the continual denial and apparent total complacency of/about that manufacturer in Taking Ownership of a well documented issue. The issue is well known in the caravan industry and has been since first it appeared in approximately 2002.
I am fully aware of the path to possible restitution and satisfaction albeit as previously stated,my van does not fall into the parameters;essentially on two counts. Age and the fact that I am the second owner.
The manufacturer is telling the respective supplying dealers that the problem is caused by XYZ and that there is no valid claim.
That however does not detract from the fact that it is affected by this issue and I believe that it was there present but disguised prior to my taking delivery of it and putting it immediately into early storage and not taking it out until the Spring.
It is long overdue that the caravan industry was taken in hand AND NOT BY THEMSELVES and forced by law if neccesary to STAND UP & BE COUNTED.

 

[Raywood]

The NCC might get some public support if it set up an independant ombudsman service that would look at complaints from consumers and adjudicate on them making awards as neccessary. Other trade organisations have done this so why not the NCC.

 

[ProfJohnL]

It is long overdue that the caravan industry was taken in hand AND NOT BY THEMSELVES and forced by law if neccesary to STAND UP & BE COUNTED.

The same can be said of many industries. History shows that similar claims were made about the car industry, bankers, estate Agents, Solicitors/lawyers, doctors, Police, etc etc etc.

The only way you can currently bring a single manufacturer to book is through a class action.

I do agree there should be an easier mechanism to bring a manufacturer to the table, but it must be fair, and just because a number of product owners have a similar problem does not prove the manufacturer has a design or production issue.

 

[Surfer]

Instead of wasting time on forums debating the subject, why don't you approach dealerships and put pressure on them as it is them that has to put up with complaints from customers. Either that or contact your MP as that is their job!

 

[Parksy]

Instead of wasting time on forums debating the subject, why don't you approach dealerships and put pressure on them as it is them that has to put up with complaints from customers. Either that or contact your MP as that is their job!

If no one wasted their time on forums debating various subjects there wouldn't be any caravan forums

By highlighting the issues on forums, caravanners are more likely to act if they have faulty caravans rather than allowing dealers and manufacturers to get away with producing shoddy goods or offering second rate service, as some of them had done for years before the surge in instant mass communication brought about via the internet.

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

It is long overdue that the caravan industry was taken in hand AND NOT BY THEMSELVES and forced by law if neccesary to STAND UP & BE COUNTED.

The same can be said of many industries. History shows that similar claims were made about the car industry, bankers, estate Agents, Solicitors/lawyers, doctors, Police, etc etc etc.

The only way you can currently bring a single manufacturer to book is through a class action.

I do agree there should be an easier mechanism to bring a manufacturer to the table, but it must be fair, and just because a number of product owners have a similar problem does not prove the manufacturer has a design or production issue.

Hi Prof John L. In this particular case and YES specific to one manufacturer the issue that has prompted my post has been ongoing since the 2001/2002 period. It is a well documented problem and was reported to have been corrected at the manufacturers and that was documented back in March of 2011. There are still reports of their products with the issue that are of Post March 2011 build.