The old 85% Chestnut.

Mar 9, 2012
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Hi to you all out there. I have been doing some catching-up reading since having recently moved from West Lancashire into Northumberland. I have an input about the recent Doug King article suggesting a review is needed.
The article left a huge cloud over the question that was first posed "But who decides when an inexperienced caravanner becomes an experienced one?"
For a newbie/complete novice a number of trips.weeks,months or even a year does not qualify for being experienced in the real meaning of that statement.
Experience surely can only be clocked up in mileage covered and in the range of everyday towing senarios/conditions.
A beginner could tow for twelve years or more and omly cover a 30mile out and back once a year for the kids holidays and then put the caravan away until the next years holiday period,this does not constitute an "Experienced" tag.
I would have thought that a minimum of 1000miles over a period of 3yrs or less would go a long way towards gaining the experienced tag.
Towing large boxed trailers on single or twin axles would in some cases be akin to towing a small/medium size caravan on single or twin axles and could legitimately count towards towing experience. Small goods/garden rubbish trailers would most certainly not be anything akin to towing experience other than for the practice of reversing with something that is narrower than the car/tow-vehicle being used.
In conclusion the mutings of uping the 85% to 90% is still a very subjective issue and would not take into account the beginner with a very much older tow-vehicle and caravan that might well struggle in an unexpected senario where a rapid stop or change of course is required.
Mileage and time equates to competence,competence equates to confidence and with confidence comes the desire for exploring further afield and upgrading both tow-vehicles and caravans.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Categorising drivers into being experienced or inexperienced simply on the basis of yearly towing mileage has its shortcomings. I'm sure we all agree that some drivers are more capable than others and some exercise more caution, due care and attention than others simply by the nature of their character. Such drivers would be more than capable of handling higher weight ratios even as a beginner so any recommendation can be just that - a guideline for those uncertain where to start.
Frankly, any revision of the recommendation from 85% to 90% is not worth the effort. I would challenge anyone to be able to tell the difference between the way an outfit at 85% handles with the same outfit at 90%. In order to make any change worthwhile the difference between old and new would have to be at least 10%. Anything less is absolutely marginal.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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It is well known that I challenge the validity of the 85% guideline, on the basis it was not derived through any validated verifiable evidential method.

However it does seem reasonable that keeping a trailers weight as small as possible would improve the security and safety of towing. But is 85% the best value to choose? and is kerbweight the best base line?

Whilst I consider the 85% is a flawed procedure, I have to admit it is better than nothing. But changing one unproven value for another without producing factual and repeatable evidence seems to be another silly mistake that will clarify nothing and more than likely cause more confusion and distrust.

The whole issue needs to be properly investigated and factual evidence gathered and reported about limiting trailer weights on tow-ability and safety.
 

Damian

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Mar 14, 2005
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Quote " Mileage and time equates to competence,competence equates to confidence ......"

Does it really?????
And what basis do you base that assumption on?

There are many long time drivers who are not confident, certainly not competent and certainly should not be on the road.
 

Parksy

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Prof John L said:
It is well known that I challenge the validity of the 85% guideline, on the basis it was not derived through any validated verifiable evidential method.

However it does seem reasonable that keeping a trailers weight as small as possible would improve the security and safety of towing. But is 85% the best value to choose? and is kerbweight the best base line?

Whilst I consider the 85% is a flawed procedure, I have to admit it is better than nothing. But changing one unproven value for another without producing factual and repeatable evidence seems to be another silly mistake that will clarify nothing and more than likely cause more confusion and distrust.

The whole issue needs to be properly investigated and factual evidence gathered and reported about limiting trailer weights on tow-ability and safety.
I recently found an interesting post on Caravan Talk which was written in 2005 from what I gather is a caravan journalist on how the figure of 85% came about.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Hello Parksy,

Thank you for pointing out the web page where you found that item.

Parts of it have a ring of truth, though unfortunately as the author is not identified and the people the author refers to are not identified the authenticity of the report or its content cannot be verified.

The report seems to rely on the use of 'best practice'. This is not uncommon with legislation on technical matters, but usually the best practice has to be defined in regulations (e.g. Wiring reg, Gas regs, codes of practice etc), and the content of those regulations has to include a list of authors, structure for revisions to ensure it remains up to date.

It is interesting that I have contacts in some of the named organisations, and despite having made inquiries of them I could not obtain any indication that such a unified official document or agreement existed, some suggested they published guidance, but nothing with regulatory or legal powers.

However the report refers to 'THE TOWING CODE' and googling the phrase comes up with a range of documents that claim to be 'the towing code' and whilst they contain similar information the wording and layouts are different. It certainly does not conform to a regulatory code of practice.

There is still no evidence offered to demonstrate how the 85% guideline was arrived at as opposed to any other preferred value.

I may if given time carefully analyse all the documents to see how much agreement there is and crucially where they disagree, and if any of them purport to have legal or regulatory jurisdiction.

As I have stated elsewhere, the road traffic regulations do not recognize touring caravans as being anything other than a trailer. So regarding trailer weights and sizes the standard regulations will apply that is black and white.

Where there is a greater grey area is regarding safe and unsafe loads and vehicles, One has to remember that a load not only has weight but it has size as well, So it is perfectly possible for the weights of an outfit to be within the law, but the size or behavior of the load (e.g. instability) may cause concern. This could be tyre point where officers may consider an 85%+ outfit to be unsafe, but in some versions of the code they also list 100% as being acceptable for experienced towers - how do the authorities differentiate?

It is about time the matter was formally addressed, It would certainly reduce the arguments on forums and help caravanner's make the right choices if a concise unified code of practice were drawn up and incorporated into regulations.
 
Oct 30, 2009
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hi all,
thanks for that Parksy, intresting link mind you I didn't expect a hour read after pressing the link.
so 7years on and the old nugget reappears, the history is pretty much as I remember it although I would have put the date a bit earlier myself,
also pretty much a standard thread although legistlation has moved on a bit since then, like the Prof my views on it are well known and need not be gone into again but it would suffice to say while towing with the Megane I broke the recommentation every time I hitched up because of the low kerb weight but at no time was the gross train weight ever even close to the limit.
one passage did make me smile though "Many traffic officers do know this and will issue a verbal warning if you do exceed 85%. Two years ago we even had a police force which was intending to prosecute a couple of caravanners for exceeding 85% and their solicitor advised them to plead guilty."
the phrase sure when hell freezes over springs to mind.
colin.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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I've just read that post in Caravan Talk that you referred to, Parksy, and it's flawed with so many errors and false information that I find the references to the 85% contained therein just as difficult to believe. The overall gist of the text, however, also indicates that the figure was drawn out of a bag because someone or some committee in the industry felt that it was 'about right'. It does not provide any evidence that 85% was arrived at in anything other than an arbitrary manner nor does it mention that anyone was seriously involved in any work to establish a meaningful value with 85% as the result. Talking it over around a committee table and arriving at a consensus is simply not enough without background supporting information. It may have been sufficient to rely on engineering judgment 40 or 50 years ago, but not today.
 
Aug 23, 2009
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This could end up being awfully good fun!! off you go chaps and I'll keep score!!!!
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Parksy

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I wasn't trying to say that the post is factually correct, it's just that reading between the lines it looks as though the author of the post might be connected with one of the caravan magazines that were around at that time.
As to how the 85% figure was arrived at, the information given in that post taken at face value seems as credible as anything else that I've read so far.
 
May 7, 2012
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I agree the 85% rule seems to have no real scientific basis but when someone tows for the first time you do need some figure to suggest to them and it is as good as any.
We have been towing caravans for about 28 years and the earlier ones were far more prone to instability than the modern ones as design improved. Venturing over85% to about 90% which I now aim at seems in order and touch wood I have had no problems. My feeling is that people towing for the first time should stick to 85% but as they become more proficient they can increase this but must never exceed the cars weight or the manufacturers towing limit.
 
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Raywood said:
........ but must never exceed the cars weight ........
Not so. At least not if you passed your driving test before the 1st January 1997 or you hold a category B+E driving licence. Whether it is advisable to do so is, however, another story.
 
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Gafferbill said:
.........I always thought that the figure should be 85.496789%.
I want to know who rounded it down to 85%?
Maybe the change came into effect with the introduction of 14" wheels or it's got something to do with the conversion from Imperial to metric units.
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Oct 30, 2009
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Raywood said:
My feeling is that people towing for the first time should stick to 85%
WHY??
for the novice surely the best advice is to keep the max trailer weight as small as possible so why 85% 75% is better 60% better still.
at present my outfit is 72% the last one 95% same van heavier car is the unit easier to tow? well actually no it isn't becase the new one has a smaller engine, power to weight ratio and all that.
I think it is significant that these debates go on within the caravan fraternaty but apparently not in other circles , you see some quite large boats with heavy outboard engines towed by by quite small cars and no one turns a hair .
like wise motorsport saloon car on d/a trailer towed by yep a saloon car,
I know the towing dynamics of these trailers are somewhat different to our vans but in the end the van is just a trailer,
it is also significant that the average best selling motor car the "focus" cannot tow the average best selling caravan, but it can tow the best selling boat/engine, confiuration,
I m sure this is more to do with the caravan industry than anything else,
if indeed they were at the table to formulate the code 40 years ago they have abandoned it since, producing average vans with a MTPLM far in exess of the capabilities of the average car.
40 years ago it was different the average van "say sprite muskateer 14ft" could easily be towed by the average car "1600 cortina" so back then it made perfect sense,
but not today non of the improvements in stabilisation ATC's power brakes turbo's and such like have any bearing on the 40year old rule it was 85% then and 85% now
it is just pure nonsense, every car/van configuration is different even the same car/van configuration will not be the same because of loading/noseweight driving style ect,
 
May 21, 2008
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I'll chip in my ten peneth of advice on this one.
85% is only a guideline and has never been a rule
Experience is realistically gained by time served doing the task, having a few close calls and finally learning from those near misses, to evolve into someone who no longer feels that the job in hand is a difficult one. That philosophy can be applied to any thing we do.
Also bear in mind that seasoned "experienced" people can bring along "bad habbits"
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I've held a HGV 1 licence and have towed trailers (goods trailers, boat trailers and caravans) upto the max tow capaity of my cars and 4x4's. My 4x4 towing was done with trailers upto 3500Kg which was nearly 200% of the tow cars weight and that was way beyond the 85% guidance of the caravan boffins.

I firmly believe that people who tow trailers of any description should undergo a training coarse and that should be along the lines of the HGV1 (LGV1) test. With the dimensions and weights of caravans increasing and tow cars having more and more horsepower, it is all too easy to tow trailers too fast and not actually know or appreciate how difficult a car and trailer are to stop in an emergencey.

In the past I have advised newbies to actually take their outfit to a large empty carpark and do a few practice emergencey stops to get an idea of how their outfit will react. No text book will prepare you for that day when you have to jump on the brakes or have to swerve to avoid someone else's stupidity.

Even 30 years on the road still gives me new "experiences" to add to my skills. Take yesterday for example. Some fool on a motor bike thought it was safe to ride up the outside of a que of a dozen cars that I was in the middle of, that was following a combine harvester. That was until the car in front of me tried to pull out to go past the harvester. He batted the bike rider across the road as the bike rider thought he could jump the que. The police at first were going to ticket the car driver and let the biker off, until me and three other drivers told them of the bikers stupidity.

I don't think any percentage calculation will ever be acurately atributable to towing safely with so many variables out there. Know what I mean
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Aug 11, 2010
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oh dear steve, well you did say you still learn something... "que jumping" actually its called filtering and is quite legal, pulling out and not looking on the otherhand is not,assuming that is the bike was not travelling at excessive speed which is normally less than 30mph in moving traffic of 10mph and above.Did the policeman not mention this whilst you were making statements?i assume you made written statements? as clearly the police were called so somebody will be at fault,statements surely were taken, either the biker for undue care if travelling too fast or car driver for not using his mirrors? and imagine you learnt that what you call que jumping! is actually called filtering when on a m/ bike and is legal!!!!!!!!!
below i have pasted some info on filtering.

Filtering is legal – as highlighted below in the Highway Code.
On Page 28 of the Highway Code, under rules for drivers and motorcyclists (88), Filtering is mentioned as follows:
‘Manoeuvring. You should be aware of what is behind and to the sides before manoeuvring. Look behind you; use mirrors if they are fitted. When in traffic queues look out for pedestrians crossing between vehicles and vehicles emerging from junctions or changing lanes. Position yourself so that drivers can see you in their mirrors. Additionally when filtering in slow-moving traffic, take care and keep your speed low.
Remember: Observation – Signal – Manoeuvre’.
The Highway Code recognises that filtering by motorcycles in traffic is an accepted and legally recognised practice. However, interpretation by police, insurers and courts of exactly what constitutes ‘filtering’ is a ‘grey area’.
Definition of Filtering and Lane Splitting (or Sharing)
In broad terms, filtering by motorcyclists is defined as moving between traffic when other surrounding traffic is stationary. This is standard motorcycle practice and necessary for safe motorcycle travel.
Lane splitting is defined as moving through traffic when other traffic is in motion. It can also refer to overtaking within the same marked lane in moving traffic.
Sometimes lane splitting and filtering are used intermittently without full comprehension of the differences in each mobility activity. This results in problems for policy makers, motorcyclists and enforcement agencies during policy formation and implementation.
According to the document by the Victorian Automobile Chamber of Commerce (VACC), ‘the primary advantage of motorcycle transportation is the narrowness and acceleration capacity of a motorcycle which allows a rider to overtake and filter past other traffic.
Filtering is useful in heavy traffic flow conditions and facilitates road space management and mobility policy through use of road space unable to be occupied by vehicles such as passenger cars.
Thus filtering contributes to road safety as it can increase the road space between motorcyclists and other mixed traffic.
Furthermore, filtering is a defensive driving measure that increases motorcyclist visibility to car drivers and prevents ‘rear end’ motorcycle collision’.
2003 data from Transport for London examined 6,469 powered two wheeler casualties in London. In this report, Powered two wheelers refer to mopeds, scooters and motorcycles up to and including 125cc and those over 125cc. When comparing PTWs in fatal collisions with other types of vehicles, the statistics found lane changing contributes to only 2% of the casualty total.
This result implies the low risk nature of filtering.
In 2004, the results of the first complete European study of motorcycle accidents were released by the Association of European Motorcycle Manufacturers (ACEM). The Motorcycle Accident In- Depth Study (MAIDS) aimed to understand the nature and causes of motorcycle accidents in France, Germany, Italy, Netherlands, and Spain. 921 accidents were examined and showed around 2000 variables including human, environmental and vehicle factors.
Most of the accidents were founded on human error, the most common being a failure to see the motorcycles in traffic.
Over 70% of car driver errors were due to failure to perceive the motorcycle. Hence being conspicuous is the prime factor in accidents as opposed to filtering activity.
Previous research from the American Hurt report (1981) confirms the current European findings. In multiple vehicle accidents, the driver of the other vehicle (mostly passenger cars), was found to violate the motorcyclists right of way and was responsible for causing two thirds of all motorcycle accidents.
Thus, motorist failure to recognise motorcycles in traffic is the dominant cause of motorcycle accidents.
The Hurt research also verifies higher safety levels for motorcyclists who are able to traffic filter.
MAG believes that motorcycles should be able to move freely in a traffic lane as part of a low risk safety measure.
For example, moving to the front of a traffic queue enables a motorcyclist to avoid rear end collisions safely, as traffic is moving in the same direction.
Furthermore, as highlighted in the VACC document, ‘being unable to filter means a motorcycle would potentially contribute to greater congestion problems rather than responding to congestion reduction.
In the instance of slow moving traffic, filtering is important in the prevention of accidents particularly if a motorcycle is overtaking another slow-moving vehicle’.
Use of bus lanes for motorcyclists has been recommended in cities throughout the UK.
Other findings suggest a reduction in motorcycle accident numbers and motorcycle side swipe accidents with permitted bus lane use and improved safety benefits for motorcyclists.
The promotion of alternate lane use involves filtering activity, so prohibiting filtering limits the safety options offered by multi lane transportation models.
Existing policies in many countries tend to apply road capacity management to motorcyclists as a general road user rather than incorporating specialised measures to meet capacity management needs.
Therefore, more enquires into motorcyclist behaviour is needed to establish an integrated view of motorcyclist user requirements, mobility function and safety issues.
Existing research is further limited in its application because of small sample sizes, and past research suffered from a lack of theoretical foundations, resulting in faulty variable measurements.
However, an overriding issue is the lack of data from the motorcyclist’s perspective as highlighted in the European Agenda for Motorcycle Safety produced by the Federation of European Motorcyclists Associations (FEMA).
In such instances, research has assumed the driving environment is similar for motorists and motorcyclists.
This assumption potentially undermines the relevance of past findings and at worst, guides road rule policy toward an unsafe driving environment for motorcyclists and other road users.
MAG RECOMMENDATIONS?
Below are some recommendations I have been working on.
Please pass these out to your local group members for comments and feed responses to myself to the MAG Office or via email (preferred) at general-secretary@mag-uk.org
MAG recommends a commonly understood and practical set of definitions so that consistent policies can be introduced and maintained when considering these issues in the future.
MAG UK therefore recommends that the definition of ‘filtering’ be that of ‘moving between traffic when other surrounding traffic is stationary or slow moving (no more than to 20 mph)’.
A further definition of ‘Lane Splitting’ could be introduced which is that of ‘moving through traffic when other traffic is in motion over a speed limit of 20 mph’. (It can also refer to overtaking within the same marked lane in moving traffic).
This would help policy makers, police and insurers to separate and define safe riding practices from unsafe riding practices.
Trevor Baird
General Secretary MAG UK
GEM Motorcycle Filtering Leaflet Here
References:
Victorian Automobile Chamber of Commerce (VACC) Submission January 2006 National Transport Commission Australian Road Rules Amendment Package 2005 Draft Regulatory Impact Statement.
Transport for London Street Management London Road Safety Unit 2004 ‘Powered Two Wheeler Causalities in Greater London’.
ACEM, 2004 ‘Maids- in depth investigations of accidents involving powered two wheelers’ Final Report
http://maids.acembike.org
Hurt, HH Ouellet, JV Thom. DR 1981 ‘Motorcycle Accident Cause Factors and Identification of Countermeasures’ AKA The Hurt Report’ Traffic Safety Center University of Southern California Los Angeles California www.cs.wisc.edu
Elliot, MA, Baughan, CJ, Broughton, J. Chinn, B, Grayson, GB. Knowles, J Smith, LR Simpson H. 2003 ‘Motorcycle safety: A Scoping Study’ prepared for Road Safety Division Department for Transport
Advisory Group on Motorcycling 2004 Final Report to Government www.dft.gov.uk
Department for transport 2005 ‘The Government’s Motorcycling Strategy’
VACC Submission January 2006 National Transport Commission Australian Road Rules Amendment Package 2005 Draft Regulatory Impact Statement.
Buche, T. Williams, S, Tyra A. Motorcycle Safety Foundation , Irvine, CA 2004 ‘ A proposal for Defining, Measuring and Documenting the Effects of ‘Safety Renewal’ A Concept whose Time has come’ A paper for the 5th ifz Motorcycle Conference ‘ Safety- Environment– Future’ Munich Germany.
 
Mar 8, 2009
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Quote - " He batted the bike rider across the road as the bike rider thought he could jump the que" - Steveinleo wrote.
By the terminology used and context you sound as though you thought it was justice for the biker to get 'batted' across the road.
The words mirrors and changing lane without looking come to my mind.
'Plod' sounds as though he was not upto scratch as well.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Clearly Steve you have touched a raw nerve here.

Regardless of whether "Filtering and Lane Splitting (or Sharing)" is legally recognised in the UK, there is still a duty of care on all road users (including bikers) to assess the situation and to only make a manoeuvre when it is safe to do so, taking into account the possible inter-actions with other road users.

We don't have all the relevant detail facts of Steve's report - and we wont get them, so we don't know what speeds were involved, we don't know what signals were used, and we don't know for certain if any of those involved were acting recklessly or not.

I suggest the point has been made, and we should all be more aware of bikes, AND vice versa.

No useful purpose will served by trying to dissect the circumstances any further.
 
Oct 30, 2009
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steveinleo said:
Even 30 years on the road still gives me new "experiences" to add to my skills. Take yesterday for example. Some fool on a motor bike thought it was safe to ride up the outside of a que of a dozen cars that I was in the middle of, that was following a combine harvester. That was until the car in front of me tried to pull out to go past the harvester. He batted the bike rider across the road as the bike rider thought he could jump the que. The police at first were going to ticket the car driver and let the biker off, until me and three other drivers told them of the bikers stupidity.
hi Steve, sorry mate you got this one wrong
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and so did the copper who obviously had never done a police motorbike course,
while jonnyG,s post is a bit longwinded essentialy he is correct.
motor cycles are allowed to both line filter and carraigeway share, providing there is room to do so.

basically line filtering " when traffic is stood" can be done on the outside where the motor cycle is going straight on or turning right. or on the inside when turning left,
carriageway sharing is when proceeding in slow moving traffic providing the motorcycle does not cross the white line "overtaking" or exeed the speed limit,
the problem if there is one is when car drivers are frustrated as they are stuck in a jam or a long queue and see some bike trundle down the line "queue jumping" and the red mist decends.
in such situations as a life long biker I allways move over to allow a safe haven for the bikes until they can proceed futher on down the line, this is only common courtesy and they are not holding me up in the traffic, unless of course some goon pulls out and knocks one off.
 
Jul 15, 2008
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........what I recognise from these posts is a common failure to understand how dangerous a driving situation it is when you are queuing behind a slow moving vehicle.
Impatience is often the order of the day and you can expect almost any type of overtaking manoeuvre to be attempted. We cannot determine who was in the wrong from Steve's incident and his description.

Basically two road users carried out an overtaking manoeuvre at the same time with insufficient observation to avoid a collision.
You may be within the law but that does not placate any loss or injuries you may suffer.

OMG...... I am agreeing with the Prof again!!!!
 
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Gafferbill said:
........what I recognise from these posts is a common failure to understand how dangerous a driving situation it is when you are queuing behind a slow moving vehicle.
HOW are we supposed to know this Bill because as caravanners we would be at the front surely
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"nudge, nudge, wink, wink, elbow, elbow",

(know what I mean)
 
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Regardless of whether overtaking a queue of traffic is legal, its obviously also dangerous, which is one reason queues start in the first place.
The reluctance of the first driver behind the slow vehicle to over take adds greater risk for the following car, as the car in front could suddenly decide a overtaking opportunity has appeared.
Cars have blind spots, bikes don't all drive with headlights, so aren't always easily seen.
Personally i have seen bikes overtake at speed, and seem to think it a right to do so.
Bikers are often called organ donors for a reason.
 
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Interesting reasoning being used on here to pass the buck! Steve said que jumping and steves pretty good at explaining whats what.
so filtering is the order of the day and not speeding. having just come from a thread with regards to law and safety where the law is the law,and is right here i found the term "regardless of the law" or" whether its legal or not being applied" to a simple sitution regarding filtering by motorcyclists.
Even better having come from earlier thread where responces were made about peoples mindsets and how they think,it is interesting to see how those who spoke of said mindsets think, and how their responses to this question seems slightly differing to the normal the laws the law mentality!
Filtering is not dangerous, by that i mean as long as the bike is not speeding,[ which is not the same as filtering] and other road uses are practicing what they preach then filtering is fine. what is worrying is how motorist use all sorts of reasonig to defend bad actions and human error, me included i soppose, but if we go by the tone of some of the replies there is definately a bee in the bonnet of some motorist to the fact somebody on a motorbike could actually pass by them and !que jump"!
now blaming blind spots is not an excuss, its an acknowledgement that they exsist and therefore you should try moving your head to counter any blind spots,indeed after the nice debate on safety i started to look at how many motorists actually looked over there shoulder so to speak. it was scary to note that car drivers all have bad necks and cannot twist their necks!
using the fact that some bikes dont have daytime lights,which has many motorists complaining that they actually blind them and are a nuisance! again is not an excuse.
I make no appolgises for this post,if it even gets one person to think about their mindset to motorcyclists no matter how irratable they feel my posting is, it will be worth it any slating i get.....
 

Parksy

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JonnyG said:
.....I make no appolgises for this post,if it even gets one person to think about their mindset to motorcyclists no matter how irratable they feel my posting is, it will be worth it any slating i get.....
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No slating from me, motorists should be aware of other road users at all times and no matter whether filtering by motorcyclists is legal or not (I've no idea) it's a fact that in a queue of traffic motorcyclists often pass along the outside of the queue to overtake and a competent driver should always bear this in mind.
My own vehicle has several so called blind spots because of the width of the door pillars so even when someone allows me to join a queue of traffic on the main road from a side street (our cul-de-sac joins a busy main road which has cycle lanes) I always have a good look behind the pillar to check for cyclists and motorcyclists who may be overtaking or undertaking.
Nobody deserves to get 'batted across the road' (to borrow Steve's phrase) because a motorist couldn't be bothered to look properly.
 

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