The sweet spot

[Buckman]

Although I am not an EV fan I found this to be interesting reading. See HERE.

 

[Tobes]

Thanks for posting @Buckman . I would not have seen this.

Well that's an incredibly refreshing article from the Daily Mail, and I agree with the conclusion, that buying a used (1 to 3 year old) EV makes enormous financial sense if you are in the market for a newish used car (if you have a home charging option). The following paragraph is also worth dissecting.

The Vauxhall Corsa petrol and Corsa-e have a very significant gulf in list price; the EV is a £10,000 premium in dealers, which is a whopping amount for what should be a small, affordable car. That said, buyers typically don't pay list price in Vauxhall showrooms.

The key here being that you can get an enormous discount on a new EV (especially with Vauxhall and other Stellantis group cars), that takes a huge chunk out of both the disparity in price with a new petrol model _and_ the 1st years eye watering headline depreciation figure.

 

[Buckman]

It would have been better if they had done an insurance analysis using an average person as I have read many articles regarding the high cost of insuring an EV. Not sure if the same applies to hybrids?

 

[Jcloughie]

I recently spotted this for depreciation.

The E-Tron new is more than £85,000

This one is going for £30,450


The Top gear report says that the e-tron is 3 times heavier on electricity than a Honda.

John

 

[Tobes]

It would have been better if they had done an insurance analysis using an average person as I have read many articles regarding the high cost of insuring an EV. Not sure if the same applies to hybrids?

So far my experience is it really not higher. The risk seems to be (vast majority) down to the person and power of the car.
Edit - - adding a thought.

But - I agree with you, @Buckman . It would have been excellent to add the comparative insurance costs to this article.

Pick an average person likely to run each car, and an appropriate address, and show the costs for a driver for each. It would be hugely helpful.

 

[borderbilly]

Just read reviews of new Kia in caravan magazine. 300+ miles range, but when towing 126. I'll stick to my dirty diesel.

 

[otherclive]

Thanks for posting @Buckman . I would not have seen this.

Well that's an incredibly refreshing article from the Daily Mail, and I agree with the conclusion, that buying a used (1 to 3 year old) EV makes enormous financial sense if you are in the market for a newish used car (if you have a home charging option). The following paragraph is also worth dissecting.

The Vauxhall Corsa petrol and Corsa-e have a very significant gulf in list price; the EV is a £10,000 premium in dealers, which is a whopping amount for what should be a small, affordable car. That said, buyers typically don't pay list price in Vauxhall showrooms.

The key here being that you can get an enormous discount on a new EV (especially with Vauxhall and other Stellantis group cars), that takes a huge chunk out of both the disparity in price with a new petrol model _and_ the 1st years eye watering headline depreciation figure.

Our local Kia dealer has 9 pre owned Tesla’s and a Polestar 2 at what are relatively low prices compared to the list price. The mileages are sensibly modest and some of the lowest priced ones are about the price of a new Picanto or Ceed.

 

[Oscarmax]

Charging up at public charger and insurance need to be factored in, would you buy a 3 year old EV, we have a Suzuki Across PHEV (Rebadged Toyota RAV4 PHEV) and charge up at home off peak, if we charged up using expensive EV charger it would not be viable away from home it is cheaper to run on petrol.

 

[Dustydog]

I find it hard to compare the EV charging times ,costs and charger locations.🙉
The worst case seems to be the motorway services rapid charging points costing ~£19 for a 30 min, ~90 mile charge. **
My diesel will cost roughly the same. Then the EV will probably outperform when I use the work hook up or plug in at home?
Realistically few of us buy fuel at a motor way services. Is it the same for the EV? Just curious

 

[Buckman]

Sadly with probably the majority of homes in the UK there will never be an option to be able to charge an EV at home?

 

[otherclive]

Sadly with probably the majority of homes in the UK there will never be an option to be able to charge an EV at home?

I recall not long ago didn’t you make a post with lots of “nevers”

There will be a measure of on street charging, plus as charging stations increase there will be competition in price. But none of us have fuel stations at home so people will have to charge at charging points away from home. But if/when we have more renewables and hopefully detach electric prices from oil prices electric prices could reduce in real terms. But in any major socio techno change there will be winners and losers.

 

[Buckman]

I recall not long ago didn’t you make a post with lots of “nevers”

There will be a measure of on street charging, plus as charging stations increase there will be competition in price. But none of us have fuel stations at home so people will have to charge at charging points away from home. But if/when we have more renewables and hopefully detach electric prices from oil prices electric prices could reduce in real terms. But in any major socio techno change there will be winners and losers.

And pigs will fly next to the cows!

 

[ProfJohnL]

Sadly with probably the majority of homes in the UK there will never be an option to be able to charge an EV at home?

You have made it abundantly clear you are not in favour of EV's, and you are entitled to your opinion, but just because you don't like them, there is no need to keep posting inaccurate statements as if they are facts.

Unfortunately, you'll be disappointed because most homes with off street parking already have enough night time power capacity to have an 7kW EV charging point. No it isn't a100kW or more but 7kW for 7 hours would still give 49kWh of charge that is more than enough for most EV's to do about 150 miles or more.

The vast majority of daily car commutes are less than 30 miles. Over a few days of normal driving and charging at night even the biggest car batteries would reach full charge. And of course when they are fully charged, they don't draw any significant amount of power.

As new EV's arrive they are tending to have a facility to act as a domestic battery (Power to load or Power to Grid). This process will enable the grid to power demands in a smaller area. And when managed correctly such cars can collect power when its cheap and sell it back to the grid when its more expensive thus making some income for the owner.

They may also have the possibility of covering your domestic needs for several hours if not days if there is a grid outage.

Where longer journeys are necessary the driver may have to include a charging stop en route. It called planning ahead.

 

[Buckman]

You have made it abundantly clear you are not in favour of EV's, and you are entitled to your opinion, but just because you don't like them, there is no need to keep posting inaccurate statements as if they are facts.

Unfortunately, you'll be disappointed because most homes with off street parking already have enough night time power capacity to have an 7kW EV charging point. No it isn't a100kW or more but 7kW for 7 hours would still give 49kWh of charge that is more than enough for most EV's to do about 150 miles or more.

The vast majority of daily car commutes are less than 30 miles. Over a few days of normal driving and charging at night even the biggest car batteries would reach full charge. And of course when they are fully charged, they don't draw any significant amount of power.

As new EV's arrive they are tending to have a facility to act as a domestic battery (Power to load or Power to Grid). This process will enable the grid to power demands in a smaller area. And when managed correctly such cars can collect power when its cheap and sell it back to the grid when its more expensive thus making some income for the owner.

They may also have the possibility of covering your domestic needs for several hours if not days if there is a grid outage.

Where longer journeys are necessary the driver may have to include a charging stop en route. It called planning ahead.

Please highlight why you think that once again I should I play ping pong with you when obviously you never understand what the thread is about and it isn't charging?

I started this thread about the cost of second hand EVs and not how they will be charged so can we please stick to the original post instead of diverting to other issues regarding EVs.

 

[otherclive]

I find it hard to compare the EV charging times ,costs and charger locations.🙉
The worst case seems to be the motorway services rapid charging points costing ~£19 for a 30 min, ~90 mile charge. **
My diesel will cost roughly the same. Then the EV will probably outperform when I use the work hook up or plug in at home?
Realistically few of us buy fuel at a motor way services. Is it the same for the EV? Just curious

My grandson only used commercial chargers if away from home or the office. He had a Tesla Model Y AWD and found charging at home via 7kw perfectly okay for the majority of his usage, and also used that 7kw point for his BMW 5 PHEV too. The electricity at home was a cheaper tariff overnight too. Work charging was cheaper than commercial points. Going up to Stirling he used M way chargers rather than go off route and find the local charger not working or being used. During the holiday in Scotland he found their system for charging very good, both in terms of availability and payment methods.

 

[Mel]

This is yet another recent thread that is heading into combative argument rather than interesting debate. Sam and I seem to be increasingly reminding folks to keep it pleasant and refrain from personal rebuttal. Please do so.
Thank you
Mel

 

[Dustydog]

My son’s company car is an EV Volvo XC40. Even all the vans are EV. Range allegedly 260 actual 180 in ideal low speed no aircon or heater. It’s his Company’s policy to go all green.

However in a few years time I suspect under the Freedom of Information Act we may well discover their green experiment is not all that glistens🤔

Harrogate to Cirencester is not possible or too risky with youngsters on board. He says a rapid charge at services takes 30 minutes to get 70/80% charge.That assumes they are available and working.

The Prof refers to home charging. A 7 or 11kw charging point is available for most houses where there is a drive. It possibly requires an additional dedicated Consumer Unit and connections to the incoming current. Costs seem to vary a lot depending on the length of cable run etc. say £1-2k or more? I think today it is reasonable to say domestic charging points will remain in the minority for the next decade.

Or will all new house builds come with their own 7kw + chargers?

At least three major U.K. insurers have blamed the rising cost of repairs to EVs for their massive premium hikes.

We know Tesla’s eat tyres . I wonder where all the rubber comes from😉

If I didn’t tow and only did local journeys I admit the temptation to buy a three year old EV at bargain basement prices is tempting. I’m not saying never nor as and when but more-so when more costings are available and the truth about green pollution things is honestly stated .
And finally there are rumours that the latest diesels on the horizon will be zero pollution. It is clear from the OP EVs are not enjoying the financial good health originally suggested

 

[otherclive]

My son’s company car is an EV Volvo XC40. Even all the vans are EV. Range allegedly 260 actual 180 in ideal low speed no aircon or heater. It’s his Company’s policy to go all green.

However in a few years time I suspect under the Freedom of Information Act we may well discover their green experiment is not all that glistens🤔

Harrogate to Cirencester is not possible or too risky with youngsters on board. He says a rapid charge at services takes 30 minutes to get 70/80% charge.That assumes they are available and working.

The Prof refers to home charging. A 7 or 11kw charging point is available for most houses where there is a drive. It possibly requires an additional dedicated Consumer Unit and connections to the incoming current. Costs seem to vary a lot depending on the length of cable run etc. say £1-2k or more? I think today it is reasonable to say domestic charging points will remain in the minority for the next decade.

Or will all new house builds come with their own 7kw + chargers?

At least three major U.K. insurers have blamed the rising cost of repairs to EVs for their massive premium hikes.

We know Tesla’s eat tyres . I wonder where all the rubber comes from😉

If I didn’t tow and only did local journeys I admit the temptation to buy a three year old EV at bargain basement prices is tempting. I’m not saying never nor as and when but more-so when more costings are available and the truth about green pollution things is honestly stated .
And finally there are rumours that the latest diesels on the horizon will be zero pollution. It is clear from the OP EVs are not enjoying the financial good health originally suggested

Do you mean zero pollution or zero emissions diesels? Quite a feat of science whatever.

I wonder if a Tesla would eat tyres at the rate my 1.5 turbo Kia does. 12400 miles on fronts is awful.

 

[Tobes]

Charging up at public charger and insurance need to be factored in, would you buy a 3 year old EV, we have a Suzuki Across PHEV (Rebadged Toyota RAV4 PHEV) and charge up at home off peak, if we charged up using expensive EV charger it would not be viable away from home it is cheaper to run on petrol.

Insurance is really not a deal breaker for EV. In my experience the cost is about the same. My youngest took on a 3.5 year old EV, my eldest a 2 year old. I would buy my 4 year old if it were not going to be replaced on a car scheme .
Yes - charging out and about is more expensive than at home, though it can still be cheap. A Tesla charger with the monthly subscription is about 40p / kWh, low enough to be comparable with supermarket petrol prices. At home (where 95% of charging takes place) its 1/10th the cost.

 

[Tobes]

I find it hard to compare the EV charging times ,costs and charger locations.🙉
The worst case seems to be the motorway services rapid charging points costing ~£19 for a 30 min, ~90 mile charge. **
My diesel will cost roughly the same. Then the EV will probably outperform when I use the work hook up or plug in at home?
Realistically few of us buy fuel at a motor way services. Is it the same for the EV? Just curious

Charging at home is dramatically cheaper. I charge on public chargers once in a blue moon.

 

[Tobes]

Sadly with probably the majority of homes in the UK there will never be an option to be able to charge an EV at home?

In reality the majority of homes _do_ have off road parking, and will have the option to home charge.

Cars parked 23 hours a day

The average car or van in England is driven just 4% of the time, a figure that has barely changed in quarter of a century. For the rest of the time the car or v

www.racfoundation.org

 

[Tobes]

My son’s company car is an EV Volvo XC40. Even all the vans are EV. Range allegedly 260 actual 180 in ideal low speed no aircon or heater. It’s his Company’s policy to go all green.

However in a few years time I suspect under the Freedom of Information Act we may well discover their green experiment is not all that glistens🤔

What evidence is there that this likely to be the case?

Harrogate to Cirencester is not possible or too risky with youngsters on board. He says a rapid charge at services takes 30 minutes to get 70/80% charge.That assumes they are available and working.

Harrogate to cirencester is a 207 mile drive. I could do it on a single charge, though I couldn't do it on a single bladder - and certainly not a single child bladder. A 15 mins stop anywhere along the route would give you plenty of reserve juice, and you can track the availability and status of chargers from your dashboard.

The Prof refers to home charging. A 7 or 11kw charging point is available for most houses where there is a drive. It possibly requires an additional dedicated Consumer Unit and connections to the incoming current. Costs seem to vary a lot depending on the length of cable run etc. say £1-2k or more? I think today it is reasonable to say domestic charging points will remain in the minority for the next decade.

I had a new charger 3 months ago less that 1K fitted, direct from a Henley block, including its own breaker unit.

Or will all new house builds come with their own 7kw + chargers?

New houses with parking are mandated to have a charging facility under planning regulation.

At least three major U.K. insurers have blamed the rising cost of repairs to EVs for their massive premium hikes.

It's a good blame. - Avoid those insurers and pick cheaper ones

We know Tesla’s eat tyres . I wonder where all the rubber comes from😉

They do? Is there evidence for that? My own EV did 23K on the 1st set. I am up to 43K now with about 4mm left.

If I didn’t tow and only did local journeys I admit the temptation to buy a three year old EV at bargain basement prices is tempting. I’m not saying never nor as and when but more-so when more costings are available and the truth about green pollution things is honestly stated .
And finally there are rumours that the latest diesels on the horizon will be zero pollution. It is clear from the OP EVs are not enjoying the financial good health originally suggested

There will _never_ be a zero pollution diesel or petrol. The act of releasing energy from fossil fuel _must_ release CO2. It's fundamental to the chemical equation.

 

[Tobes]

Just to give some idea of the charging options available today. This is Harrogate to Cirencester. Every blob represents a rapid charging location of 50kW or above.
The options available to an EV driver today are very different to even 3 years ago.

 

[Dustydog]

What evidence is there that this likely to be the case?


Harrogate to cirencester is a 207 mile drive. I could do it on a single charge, though I couldn't do it on a single bladder - and certainly not a single child bladder. A 15 mins stop anywhere along the route would give you plenty of reserve juice, and you can track the availability and status of chargers from your dashboard.

Perhaps his XC40 isn’t as good as yours 🙀

I had a new charger 3 months ago less that 1K fitted, direct from a Henley block, including its own breaker unit.
That’s not bad but as with my son the mains input CU was some 20/25 feet from where the charger was mounted . Cost more than £2 k but agree it is a variable.

New houses with parking are mandated to have a charging facility under planning regulation.


It's a good blame. - Avoid those insurers and pick cheaper ones
Recommend some and you could make a fortune😉

They do? Is there evidence for that? My own EV did 23K on the 1st set. I am up to 43K now with about 4mm left.

Ask ATS Cirencester. I watched three Teslas go in for new tyres all between 6 &8 k .Driving style obviously matters.

There will _never_ be a zero pollution diesel or petrol. The act of releasing energy from fossil fuel _must_ release CO2. It's fundamental to the chemical equation.

But CO2 is crucial to photosynthesis and O production by plants trees etc. can we be totally CO2 free?

Thanks for the map. Son gets that on his dash screen. Nottingham is his favourite. Yo7 must accept full use of the heating in winter or aircon will affect the figures . I think we all accept there are improvements but will the OP article be proven right or wrong in say twelve months time?

 

[otherclive]

Perhaps his XC40 isn’t as good as yours 🙀



But CO2 is crucial to photosynthesis and O production by plants trees etc. can we be totally CO2 free?

Thanks for the map. Son gets that on his dash screen. Nottingham is his favourite. Yo7 must accept full use of the heating in winter or aircon will affect the figures . I think we all accept there are improvements but will the OP article be proven right or wrong in say twelve months time?

The world survived quite well until the Industrial Revolution came along and mankind’s CO2 levels inexorably started to rise and upset natures balance.