Tourer Habitation Check!

[Gagakev]

Currently looking for a site for use as storage and breaks, it will be van in storage and them to pull on off as and when required.
Phoned site and the lady told me I would need the habitation check, I said its a tourer and serviced yearly, can you ring back tomorrow and speak to the storage warden, this I duly did and he said she got it wrong it is only for seasonal pitches, which I think is fair.
We arrange a visit today to check out the site, any way after checking out the site and back in the office we started talking finer details and this habitation thing came up again, speaking to the storage warden the same one I spoke to on the phone and YES they are now implementing the habitation checks even on storage vans.
They give you the details of the person who will do it on site for £90.00! Gas and electric test only.
I asked if I just booked for two weeks if I would need it oh no that is classed as a tourer, well what's mine then, does it matter if it stored here or on my drive. You wouldn't need it just visting. Grrrrrr
I ask if all the seasonal and storage vans already on site have it, there reply NO, some of the seasonal's haven't even been serviced for at least two to three years!!!!!!!
Might as well finish my grumble, I asked what they tow on off with, a tractor was there reply, I ask does it have two tow balls fitted, the chap looked at me as though I had two heads, why he asked, one for a normal greased ball
(They had a couple in the storage yard) and one for an alko type I reply, they reply we have never had a problem before!!!!!
You can guess ..........We are not going there.

 

[Mel]

Cheek! On the seasonal pitch that we have booked we had to sign to confirm that the van had been annually serviced and that was it. Take your business elsewhere.
Mel

 

[ProfJohnL]

This sounds as though this site has just found a new way to try and extract more money from its customers.

Unfortunately as this the caravan storage market is unregulated, the site can impose whatever terms it likes, and any customer that does not comply may have their contract terminated or refused.

As you have done vote with your wheels :dry:

 

[Gagakev]

Cheek! On the seasonal pitch that we have booked we had to sign to confirm that the van had been annually serviced and that was it. Take your business elsewhere.
Mel

Still looking Mel, I suspect they get a % of the £90.00.

 

[Gagakev]

This sounds as though this site has just found a new way to try and extract more money from its customers.

Unfortunately as this the caravan storage market is unregulated, the site can impose whatever terms it likes, and any customer that does not comply may have their contract terminated or refused.

As you have done vote with your wheels :dry:

Hi Prof think you are right, they may well loose some custom as well, it was a busy site with a lot of the seasonal's being used even today,

 

[colin-yorkshire]

hi Kev,
unfortunately the prof is right, pitch and store was one avenue we looked at before deciding to sell the van, with the idea that we could leave it somewhere, but still be able to tour with it during the season. however some of the restrictions imposed by most sites were to be frank stupid [unless one considers the profit margins] all but one site only used a single tow vehicle for siteing the exception being [one] near credition. here the guy was a caravanner himself and vans with alko's and winterhoffs were sited with his own 4x4, rest done with a tractor cum grasscutter.
however the site was very busy and while there were places in storage. no garuntee could be given that pitch would be available at bankhols and busy peak times, [more storage places than pitches] and first come first served would apply. we decided not to bother as it was the same cost wether one pitched or not.
sites we looked at also had rules like :-
no security devices could be fitted. [in case the van had to be moved]
gas had to be disconnected and cyliders removed when van left.
vans had to be serviced every year. [by their agent. as most never left the site]
once a van leaves site contract finishes and starts again when returned [if room]
no pitch no's it went where they dropped it,
storage to be determined by demand so could be either hard standing or muddy field.
no vans could be inhabited for more than 28 days [to free up space]
storage areas crammed to the gunnels with vans some only inches apart.
and the killer. no accepted liability for damage however caused. [ even though your insurance could be voided by not fitting security devices at their request]
it was the proverbial minefield IMHO not worth the money saved in fuel. "oh" and most were very expensive up to £1400 a year without a garuntee of either a pitch or the time one could spend in your OWN van.

leave alone Kev it's a headache believe me.

 

[Mel]

Hate to join Colin in the pouring of cold water Kev but I have to say that one of the reasons that we chose seasonal over store and pitch was the fact that I didn't entirely trust the sites to tow on and off. Now there are probably lots of sites that take the utmost care with your van. Trouble is finding out which ones are which.
The other reason we went for seasonal is that if we have to plan to go away it probably won't happen as much as if we just go whenever we can.
Third reason was that daughters could do the same.
However the cost difference between seasonal and store and pitch may be huge. As I have said in previous posts seasonal may turn out to be an expensive punt.
Bon Chance
Mel

 

[Mel]

Having said all that, have you looked at Appledore Caravan park. Looks nice and do a secure store and pitch. Definitely cheaper than a seasonal.
Mel

 

[Gagakev]

hi Kev,
unfortunately the prof is right, pitch and store was one avenue we looked at before deciding to sell the van, with the idea that we could leave it somewhere, but still be able to tour with it during the season. however some of the restrictions imposed by most sites were to be frank stupid [unless one considers the profit margins] all but one site only used a single tow vehicle for siteing the exception being [one] near credition. here the guy was a caravanner himself and vans with alko's and winterhoffs were sited with his own 4x4, rest done with a tractor cum grasscutter.
however the site was very busy and while there were places in storage. no garuntee could be given that pitch would be available at bankhols and busy peak times, [more storage places than pitches] and first come first served would apply. we decided not to bother as it was the same cost wether one pitched or not.
sites we looked at also had rules like :-
no security devices could be fitted. [in case the van had to be moved]
gas had to be disconnected and cyliders removed when van left.
vans had to be serviced every year. [by their agent. as most never left the site]
once a van leaves site contract finishes and starts again when returned [if room]
no pitch no's it went where they dropped it,
storage to be determined by demand so could be either hard standing or muddy field.
no vans could be inhabited for more than 28 days [to free up space]
storage areas crammed to the gunnels with vans some only inches apart.
and the killer. no accepted liability for damage however caused. [ even though your insurance could be voided by not fitting security devices at their request]
it was the proverbial minefield IMHO not worth the money saved in fuel. "oh" and most were very expensive up to £1400 a year without a garuntee of either a pitch or the time one could spend in your OWN van.

leave alone Kev it's a headache believe me.

Hi Colin, did ask about the tow vehicle and as said the guy didn't have a clue.
Booking a pitch shouldnt be a problem to start with as we have to book all our hols at the beginning of the year so
We would book all major one,s ie bank hols and once a month at the same time we take up the storage. The rest of the last minute one,s would be a punt though but most would be low to mid season so more of a chance.
Also spoke to caravan insurance company about security and it is poss to leave off but my excess would increase.

£1400 !!!!!!!!!!! Gee I would want a full seasonal pitch for that, the one I looked at was£480.00 and found one last night for £5.00 per week.
But that all said and done we are having second thoughts.

 

[Gagakev]

Hate to join Colin in the pouring of cold water Kev but I have to say that one of the reasons that we chose seasonal over store and pitch was the fact that I didn't entirely trust the sites to tow on and off. Now there are probably lots of sites that take the utmost care with your van. Trouble is finding out which ones are which.
The other reason we went for seasonal is that if we have to plan to go away it probably won't happen as much as if we just go whenever we can.
Third reason was that daughters could do the same.
However the cost difference between seasonal and store and pitch may be huge. As I have said in previous posts seasonal may turn out to be an expensive punt.
Bon Chance

Mel

Thanks Mel' as Mags work,s every other weekend we would find it hard to justify the cost of a seasonal, unless I could pursaude the son and daughter to use it and help with the cost.
And yes the trust of other people moving your van is certainly is a worry. Maybe have to stick to my 29 to 30 nights as previous years

 

[colin-yorkshire]

hi all.
just read my posting again sorry Kev think dementia setting in, £1400 WAS a seasonal pitch on a lake view site with free fishing, and a pitch right on the water side. yummy. rest were around a grand a year. BUT they had a 3year waiting list.
average price we found was between £350 and £500 for pitch and store. however you had to pay a normal site fee once pitched [no discount] this could be around the £20 per night mark. so 30nights a year plus £500 = £1100 not far off a seasonal pitch price on a premier site, and their not moving your van about.

 

[Mel]

Any progress on finding a site Kev?
Mel

 

[Gagakev]

Any progress on finding a site Kev?
Mel

Hi Mel decided against it see this post I do thank you in it :kiss:

 

[Mel]

Missed that thread. Hope you still manage to get lots of time away.
Mel

 

[rosies]

Just a thought , I have a static caravan as well as my tourer . The static has to have a gas and electrical safety check every year if its rented out , if not rented then its annually for gas and every 3 years for electrical . Now these certificates are only needed as its MY SITE rules but not the same on all sites ( are you with me so far ). Now my thoughts are that its the site, establishment , storage , etc Insurance companys demanding that these standards are achieved . Don't get me wrong I think the tests are a good thing both on a static and touring caravan , any fault found can be repaired . NOW THE QUESTION , as I understand it in over 20 years of having my tourer serviced ( 40+ years a caravanner ) never once have I received a certificate of compliance . gas or electric , after a service ! Again I think this should be standard procedure in a service say every second year . On the static it costs me £25.00 for each of the certificates which I class as a fair price . I've heard rumours and the odd fact that touring sites are starting to implement the rights to asks tourers that pitch to see these certificates which again makes me more sure its part of the sites liabilities insurance . As we all know its all " ELF & SAFETY " .

 

[ProfJohnL]

Just a thought , I have a static caravan as well as my tourer . The static has to have a gas and electrical safety check every year if its rented out , if not rented then its annually for gas and every 3 years for electrical . Now these certificates are only needed as its MY SITE rules but not the same on all sites ( are you with me so far ). Now my thoughts are that its the site, establishment , storage , etc Insurance companys demanding that these standards are achieved . Don't get me wrong I think the tests are a good thing both on a static and touring caravan , any fault found can be repaired . NOW THE QUESTION , as I understand it in over 20 years of having my tourer serviced ( 40+ years a caravanner ) never once have I received a certificate of compliance . gas or electric , after a service ! Again I think this should be standard procedure in a service say every second year . On the static it costs me £25.00 for each of the certificates which I class as a fair price . I've heard rumours and the odd fact that touring sites are starting to implement the rights to asks tourers that pitch to see these certificates which again makes me more sure its part of the sites liabilities insurance . As we all know its all " ELF & SAFETY " .

Hello Rosies,

Let me get "ELF & SAFETY" out of the first of all. It seems all too common for a some people mock the implementation of Health and Safety procedures.

We are of course entitled to our own opinions about such things, but might I ask you to remember what has helped to make cars so much safer?
How the relatively low incidence of electrical and gas problems in domestic and industrial situations came about?
The approach to all of us driving on the same side of the road?
The safe usage of lifting gear?
and so on

We now take for granted so many aspects of modern life with the intrinsic belief it will be safe. THis has all come about because of the continual development of Health and Safety procedures.

Sadly I have seen several instances where health and safety procedures were not followed and persons have been injured, and could easily have been killed.

Now to the habitation certificates. You have every right to ask why a sites wants this evidence, after all they don't own it or pay for it - you do its your property. If you are unsatisfied with their reason then its up to you what you do about it.

What I would say is that if the sites insurers are asking for evidence that stored caravans are up to scratch in terms of systems safety, then the site should be telling everyone the reason they are asking for it.

Sadly as I pointed out before as there is no formal regulation of sites and their terms & Conditions, the site can apply such questions, and refuse business if potential customers don't comply.

 

[rosies]

I have NEVER pulled down ELF & SAFETY , in fact I worked with it and contribute much in my Working career as it was a major part of my job . May I suggest you actually read my reply to weyr and understand it .

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Rosie,

I'm sorry you took my comment that way.

My comment stems for the way people refer to Health and Safety as 'Elf and Safety' they are usually mocking the processes, implying they can't see the need for it. or they feel it is overbearing and impinging on what they feel is their right to do what they like regardless of the consequences to themselves or others.

I happen to agree the idea of a proper certificate of safety conformance for gas, electrical systems is a good thing. The environment in a touring caravan is far harsher than a static caravan or building, so any weaknesses in the construction of an electrical or gas system are more likely to be exposed.

There is a debate about how and how frequently such test should be performed, and how much they should cost. The The Electrical Safety Council proposals posted a couple of years ago involved exposing electrical systems and in some cases testing various connections, This very process of testing could cause weaknesses, so I am not in favour of the Electrical Installation Condition Report (EICR) as proposed.

A less invasive (and more realistic cost) test similar to Portable Appliance Test coupled to a visual inspection of any wiring easily exposed (and thus more vulnerable to impact or pressure damage) on the whole caravan should be sufficient to identify if there are any poor insulation or leakage issues. If any are found then is the time to be more invasive to locate and fix.

Similarly with the gas system a visual check on easily exposed pipework, gas soundness on the whole caravan, followed by a functional test on the fixed appliances.

Assuming no problems are identified, both checks should be manageable in under an hour.

 

[Dustydog]

I've never been pitched on a site that demands a habitation certificate.
If it relates to the storage part of the operation what do they say when you store the caravan without gas bottles . And of course it will not be connected to an EHU,

Rip off :evil:

 

[colin-yorkshire]

I've never been pitched on a site that demands a habitation certificate.
If it relates to the storage part of the operation what do they say when you store the caravan without gas bottles . And of course it will not be connected to an EHU,

Rip off :evil:

AHH yes DD, but the test and certificate would be required in the spring, that is after the mice have in there nibbling all winter. :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo:

 

[Damian]

Just to clarify a few points:
Quote " The The Electrical Safety Council proposals posted a couple of years ago "

NO, it was not the Electrical Safety Council, it was CITO who dreamed up another way of extracting lots of money from Engineers on pointless courses and the carrot of extracting more money from Owners.
They (CITO) stated that all sites would demand Electrical Safety certificates, and that a couple had refused to allow users to pitch, however when pressed on which sites they (CITO) could not name the sites.........funny that !!

Quote " A less invasive (and more realistic cost) test similar to Portable Appliance Test coupled to a visual inspection of any wiring easily exposed (and thus more vulnerable to impact or pressure damage) on the whole caravan should be sufficient to identify if there are any poor insulation or leakage issues. If any are found then is the time to be more invasive to locate and fix."

Ermmmmm. this is already what happens, and has done for a very long time during an Annual Service.

Quote "
Similarly with the gas system a visual check on easily exposed pipework, gas soundness on the whole caravan, followed by a functional test on the fixed appliances."

Yet again this is what is done on an Annual Service, and has been for a very long time.

There is no mandate to have certificates, the original certificates are valid for 3 years on a new van and then the "recommendation" is for re testing, but it is only a recommendation, it is not mandatory to have the systems re tested.
The original certificates state " Systems should be tested" it does not say "Must" or "Will" which if they did, would make re testing obligatory.

It s no use comparing Static vans with Tourers, Statics fall under Gas Safe and strict electrical regulations, Tourers are not in those regulations.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Damian,

We are not far apart here. I took my reference from
http://www.approvedworkshops.co.uk/assets/About-EICs.pdf

And whilst I agree that a competent workshop will undertake the types of test I have suggested, not all do or perhaps not to the same standard. Also the caravan owner does not normally get any sort of universally accepted certificate of conformance.

I lament the fact that private touring caravans are not covered by the same regulations as other systems, not because I want more money to be extorted from caravanners, but because I'm all in favour of raising standards, and improving safety.

I am sure both you have seen gas and electrical systems that have not been checked or repaired properly. I have seen some very dangerous systems which have caused injury, usually because an amature DIYer has had a go and got it seriously wrong. Such things could be picked sooner up with proper regular inspections.

 

[colin-yorkshire]

I lament the fact that private touring caravans are not covered by the same regulations as other systems, not because I want more money to be extorted from caravanners, but because I'm all in favour of raising standards, and improving safety.

I am sure both you have seen gas and electrical systems that have not been checked or repaired properly. I have seen some very dangerous systems which have caused injury, usually because an amature DIYer has had a go and got it seriously wrong. Such things could be picked sooner up with proper regular inspections.

hello John.
you may well lament tourers are not in the same regulations as other sources of habitation units. but it aint going to happen any time soon, as Damian said it was a preposal by a source that had everything to gain and nothing to lose and a way of extracting funds to line their pockets. of course poor maintainance is a bad idea, but a competent diy'er should have no problem doing their own. I think that is the crux of the opposition. it's a hobby nothing more nothing less. once you get into the realms of statics and house boats it is a whole new ball game.

but once you judge all by the lowest denominator [as some legistlation does] the can of worms is well and truly opened where do you stop, certainly not at tourers. trailer tents would be included, how about the camp kitchen in a tent, or a single ring cooker in a fishing bivvy. I said this years ago but the time would come when you had to have a gas safe engineer just to change the gas bottle. or an electrician to plug in the EHU. all at a fee of course.
I assume the moguls have a bit of savvy and realise this. lets hope so anyway, of course poor work should be highlighted but I wonder how many MOT mechanics would say the same thing about bodged work on car brakes and steering all they can do is issue a fail. there is no law that says all work must be done by professionals.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Colin,

As I said it was my perspective on the state of play. But I think you have missed my point i was trying to make;. I'm not suggesting that you need qualifications to go caravanning, only that work done on caravans is done properly, and at the end of it give you something that is of use, a certificate that is affordable and to show the caravan is safe. Incidentally, only the owner is has exemptions from the regulations, anyone who hires it or is contracted to work on it (with or without pay) is subject to the full force of regulation. OK I know its like an MOT, and as soon as the tester has been disconnected someone might replace the 6A fuse with a nail, but like the MOT it would generally drive standards up.

Harping back to the weights thread where we have recently corresponded, we agreed that traditions should not be trusted. It is only a tradition that private caravan owners are exempt from the most stringent form of regulation, such as wiring and gas works, so the reasons for the historical exemptions should be thoroughly re-examined in the light of all the additional stuff we have in caravans, in many cases they are just a complex as homes, yet subject to much harsher conditions.

Even hobbies sometimes require rules, not just to enable you to participate , but also to keep you safer. It could happen, :dry:

 

[colin-yorkshire]

hi John.
actually we are not miles apart on this. the only difference really is for me the compulsory nature of legislation.
once you have it that it!!, of course all work should be done safely and to a good standard provided one is not a complete dunce, there should be nothing to stop you doing it.
I am all for health and safety spent most of my working life trying to improve it but there are limits. legislating for dummies is a catch all situation,
the creeping cancer of ever increasing rules and regulations that catch all their wake should be resisted or they will impact on our every day lives [in some cases this has happend already] but where does it all end. and what pastime or hobbies do they turn on next.

Even hobbies sometimes require rules, not just to enable you to participate , but also to keep you safer. It could happen, :dry:

OK. GOLF, millions do it, enjoy the outdoors, fresh air, and it's multi million pound hobby.
but those golf balls are very hard. and could do a lot of damage. not to mention the long weapon called a club that all carry in a bag. lets legislate on this next,
start with CLUBS, could be used as a weapon in the wrong hands. so all owners will have to be licenced to carry them like guns. and keep them in a secure location. when using them one would have to have an exclusion zone of 25mtrs. so as to avoid any injury.
golf balls too hard these must be made softer to european standard whatever it is.
then there is health and safety, wearing hard hats to be compulsory as well as day glow vest so you can be seen might as well go for safety glasses as well,
and the best one, to make sure participants know what they are doing legislate for competancy in the form a test before obtaining a licence.

you see what I am getting at this would kill golf at a stroke [pun] and spoil a good every day hobby.
VERY SILLY, yes of course it is. but that how it starts look around at other hobbies that have had the evil eye cast on them I am not wrong.