Towing Issue - pulling and pushing

[Hutch]

There are plus and negatives, about putting items aft of the axles/axles, our vans balance can vary, a 20013 Coachman560/4, depending if we are away for aweekend, a week or a 6 week tour of France/ Europe. It all depends on what you carry, normally the fridge is full, (we dont do shopping at weekends) And the fridge is above the axle, and where you balance items like, the hookup cable, this can be very usefull as its fairly heavy. If we take the TV, and Digi box , can be fwd of the fridge on out bound, on the bed on the way back. You get to know your van and how to load it.
It has taken many years and After three vans of very similar balance, NORMALLY, i have no problems. Apart from last time out having the jockey wheel wind itself down,

 

[ProfJohnL]

Sorry to ruffle feathers in the old boy network. Just seemed to be a pointless and verbose statement to just to be pedantic when all I'm trying to do is lend a friendly helping hand to a newcomer. So 'Prof is saying it's quite acceptable to lump heavy items anywhere you like in the van to get the balance. Well I stand corrected and I'll try not to slam the door on my way out of the officers club
Goodbye

Hello Turningdrew.

May I assure you my comments are not aimed at you personally, but are in response to the information you offered.

Old boys network and officer's club comments, are unjustified, as I will openly challenge any person perceived friend or foe who makes inaccurate or misleading suggestions on this forum.

I don't simply roll over and accept traditions and dogma as being the best way of dealing with a set of circumstances, I try look at the facts, and review the evidence. If the evidence still supports the traditional view then fine, but all too frequently caravanning traditions do not reflect the best way of dealing with a particular issue, and I believe it is important to explain why to put things into perspective, so that readers can make up their own minds.

I most certainly did not suggest that "it's quite acceptable to lump heavy items anywhere you like in the van to get the balance."

 

[Parksy]

To try to restore some calm Here's what Practical Caravan has to say on safe loading of caravans. In the real world safe loading is partially trial and error, the basic principles remain the same but every caravan is different and will handle differently.
There is no exclusive membership or old boys network on this forum, everyone is allowed to make their point and these points can be challenged or discussed without rancour. It's all too easy on an internet forum without face to face conversation for words or phrases to be taken as barbs when they are not meant in that way.

 

[Dustydog]

Dusty, your not normally this Grumpy, whats happened, puncture on one of the many tyres of the caravan.
Hutch. Anywhere open over your way all year . Caravan back tomorrow.
Hutch.

You're right Hutch
I think it's the male menopause thing wearing T shirts saying I am retired
Whilst the Prof is a stickler for detail he chooses his words very carefully and is certainly not part of an old boys network. A very clever poster imo. B)

 

[pitpony]

i :lol: Mutiny in the Junior Ranks Mess,

 

[DaveA1]

There are plus and negatives, about putting items aft of the axles/axles, our vans balance can vary, a 20013 Coachman560/4, depending if we are away for aweekend, a week or a 6 week tour of France/ Europe. It all depends on what you carry, normally the fridge is full, (we dont do shopping at weekends) And the fridge is above the axle, and where you balance items like, the hookup cable, this can be very usefull as its fairly heavy. If we take the TV, and Digi box , can be fwd of the fridge on out bound, on the bed on the way back. You get to know your van and how to load it.
It has taken many years and After three vans of very similar balance, NORMALLY, i have no problems. Apart from last time out having the jockey wheel wind itself down,

Hi Hutch
With a van that Young, Nose weight and loading with the new anti-gravity drive no problem B) B) B)

 

[ProfJohnL]

...
There is loads of research to be done and I have done most of it. I also purchased a nose weight gauge as I like to make sure i'm trying to do things right. ...

Hello Plod,

Dusty is right, I'm a sticker for detail, and i wonder if you have done your research properly in relation to nose load gauges?
The prime function of a nose load gauge is to tell you what vertical force your trailer will exert on you tow vehicles ball hitch. This is important, as having the correct nose load improves towing and therefore safety, but also to ensure you are legally compliant.

As has been pointed out in this and other threads, what is an optimum nose load is difficult to define, but it generally the case for caravans that drivers opt for a value close to the limit for the combination. This means it is all too easy to unintentionally exceed the S value of the car or caravan, which puts too much strain on the coupling, which could easily compromise it's safe operation, and it is of course illegal. So the method of measurement should be up to the job.

EU regulations (and Brexit won't change this) requires the nose load to be measured with the hitch at the same height as when it is coupled to the tow vehicle. This may seem like a strange requirement, but there is a good and logical reason for it. It isn't patently obvious, but the load a trailer hitch will apply to the tow ball varies if the hitch is raised or lowered, so the true towing nose load only occurs when the hitch is at its towing height. Measuring at any other height does not give you the true nose load.

I am usually lambasted for being so precise about this subject, but as you have specifically writen that you want to do it right, so you should be aware of this information.

Measurement height is therefore important, and as you say you have purchased a gauge, let me ask does it adjust to allow you to set the correct height? And does the gauge compress it's length when a load is applied? If so it become a thankless task trying to get the gauge to support the hitch at its towing height.

The next point is the accuracy of the gauge. For most compression spring gauges the graduations are on the collapsing column. they are also pretty coarse often only in tens of kg. coupled to the general sloppiness of the construction, it's easy to take a reading at the wrong angle introducing parallax errors. There are extensive reports on this and from other sources of inaccuracies of upto 30%, which could easily either leave with insufficient nose load for a safe tow, or over load your hitch, which can damage the car or trailer again compromising safety. Currently I am only aware of one manufacture, who claims their product is manufactured to a British Standard, and whilst that should aid consistency, it still does not get away from the fact you cannot set it to match your loaded tow ball height, so technically it is not able to measure true nose load unless by chance the gauges settled height under load matches your loaded tow ball height! Therefore strictly speaking non of the collapsible spring based nose load gauges are fit for purpose.

There are two other types of gauge on the market. One fits to the tow ball and you couple the trailer on top to measure it. This adds approx 75mm to the height of the trailers hitch, and that again means it does not actually measure the nose load.

The third commercial type of product uses a load cell which has the distinct advantage that it barely collapses under load. These are designed to be driven onto for measuring axle loads. By using a cut broom handle to support the hitch, the device can be used to measure nose load, but this is a quite expensive bit of kit, and again it's not calibrated, but it's less prone to damage or wear.

By far the cheapest option is to use a set of bathroom scales. Yes they are not calibrated either, and there are reports of modest measurement in accuracies (11kg errors), but it's far less than the spring sticks, and they dot change their height much when loaded.

Using the caravan step as the base and few copies of PC magazine the Scales can be lifted to correct height and the hitch rest on top. It may not be perfect, but it's better than the "commercial nose load gauges" by a considerable margin.

 

[pitpony]

ProfJ,
I think you give excellent replies and it should be appreciated by whoever you respond to obviously you know your stuff, but I paid £28.00 not so long ago for a 'Milenco Precison Calibrated Nose Weight Gauge' which is the upright spring barrel type, hopefully I have bought a gauge that is accurate, I should imagine if I used the gauge everyday and all day long it would need a new spring and recalibrating, but once I'm happy with the NS I have (sorry) I might not use the gauge again that year,

 

[chrisn7]

With that Milenco, you should really pack the base of it, so that the hitch is set at the height when hitched to the car and settled.

 

[Parksy]

ProfJ,
I think you give excellent replies and it should be appreciated by whoever you respond to obviously you know your stuff, but I paid £28.00 not so long ago for a 'Milenco Precison Calibrated Nose Weight Gauge' which is the upright spring barrel type, hopefully I have bought a gauge that is accurate, I should imagine if I used the gauge everyday and all day long it would need a new spring and recalibrating, but once I'm happy with the NS I have (sorry) I might not use the gauge again that year,

There are pros and cons for whichever method of measuring nose weight you decide to use.
The noseweight of a moving caravan is not constant. If you do the best that you can with equipment that is commercially available there's not a lot more to add except that if an error occurs you would be much more likely to win the Euro Millions lottery after buying a ticket from a wooden beach hut on top of Mount Everest in shorts and flip flops than you would be to face prosecution for that particular issue.
I continue to await any evidence of a successful prosecution for excessive caravan noseweight, as I also wait to see a real life caravanner actually measuring their noseweight before setting off home from a campsite. It's best practice to keep within the limits as far as is reasonable to expect for your own outfit, nuff said
If you click on the Search tab (top right) and enter the word noseweight into the dialogue box after clicking the button to search all posts you will find reams and reams of information, debate and discussion about how to measure noseweight, what to measure it with and what could happen if you get it wrong. Here is a tiny sample

 

[ProfJohnL]

ProfJ,
I think you give excellent replies and it should be appreciated by whoever you respond to obviously you know your stuff, but I paid £28.00 not so long ago for a 'Milenco Precison Calibrated Nose Weight Gauge' which is the upright spring barrel type, hopefully I have bought a gauge that is accurate, I should imagine if I used the gauge everyday and all day long it would need a new spring and recalibrating, but once I'm happy with the NS I have (sorry) I might not use the gauge again that year,

The unit you have may be manufactured to a British Standard where as other are not, but you have to look at the standard to see what aspect of the units constructions it affects. In practice all the standard does is to tell you that it should compress by the same amount each time the same load is applied. What it does not do is guarantee it reads you nose weight correctly becasue it changes its length when you load it. So just as chrisn7 suggests you need to have some means of adjusting its load height to match the height of the loaded tow ball. Without that fundamental adjustment it cannot measure actual nose load. If you can adjust it then great.

And on a particular point this manufacturer claims it is "calibrated". Calibration has a very special interpretation in weights and measures, and it should have a serial number and a linked document that confirms its calibration status, when it's due for recalibration, which standard weights and measures were used during the calibration process, and a list of it's error across its span. These are not 'calibrated' against national standards.

However I do concede that even without adjustment or absolute calibration they will be better and certainly more consistent than guessing,

I have to add that whilst the issue of nose load variance and height is a an issue for all trailers, it is particularly a problem for twin axle units where the change in nose load with height is very much more aggressive in transition.

There are those who don't like my suggestions on this issue, perhaps they don't like the thought they may have spent money on a product that is not really fit for purpose. But interestingly no one has argued against the mechanics, logic or principles of the argument , they only cite the lack of official consequences. This has engendered a why bother mind set, well if you want to do it right then you now have the knowledge and hopefully the tools to do it..

 

[Parksy]

..........There are those who don't like my suggestions on this issue, perhaps they don't like the thought they may have spent money on a product that is not really fit for purpose. But interestingly no one has argued against the mechanics, logic or principles of the argument , they only cite the lack of official consequences. This has engendered a why bother mind set, well if you want to do it right then you now have the knowledge and hopefully the tools to do it........

It's not so much that I don't like your suggestions Prof, but in real world caravanning having the correct noseweight is desirable but difficult if not impossible to measure to the degree of accuracy that you seem to insist upon.
From what I see every time we are on a campsite with other caravans the 'why bother' mindset definitely exists when I see some of the things that some tourers cart around with them.
It could be argued that no method that's readily available is 100% accurate and fit for purpose so all we can do is our best according to the information available at the time. For my own part, like it or not if I err at all it is toward the upper limit of my 100kg noseweight.
With a twin axle caravan I could never swear hand on heart that the noseweight is always measured accurately. I too bought a Milenco gauge that I use from time to time and I really am not too bothered if it is spot on or not, it's close enough for me. The caravan handles superbly well, especially since I had the 4 wheels balanced, and it's not overweight so I'm happy.

 

[pitpony]

ProfJ,
I think you give excellent replies and it should be appreciated by whoever you respond to obviously you know your stuff, but I paid £28.00 not so long ago for a 'Milenco Precison Calibrated Nose Weight Gauge' which is the upright spring barrel type, hopefully I have bought a gauge that is accurate, I should imagine if I used the gauge everyday and all day long it would need a new spring and recalibrating, but once I'm happy with the NS I have (sorry) I might not use the gauge again that year,

The unit you have may be manufactured to a British Standard where as other are not, but you have to look at the standard to see what aspect of the units constructions it affects. In practice all the standard does is to tell you that it should compress by the same amount each time the same load is applied. What it does not do is guarantee it reads you nose weight correctly becasue it changes its length when you load it. So just as chrisn7 suggests you need to have some means of adjusting its load height to match the height of the loaded tow ball. Without that fundamental adjustment it cannot measure actual nose load. If you can adjust it then great.

And on a particular point this manufacturer claims it is "calibrated". Calibration has a very special interpretation in weights and measures, and it should have a serial number and a linked document that confirms its calibration status, when it's due for recalibration, which standard weights and measures were used during the calibration process, and a list of it's error across its span. These are not 'calibrated' against national standards.

However I do concede that even without adjustment or absolute calibration they will be better and certainly more consistent than guessing,

I have to add that whilst the issue of nose load variance and height is a an issue for all trailers, it is particularly a problem for twin axle units where the change in nose load with height is very much more aggressive in transition.

There are those who don't like my suggestions on this issue, perhaps they don't like the thought they may have spent money on a product that is not really fit for purpose. But interestingly no one has argued against the mechanics, logic or principles of the argument , they only cite the lack of official consequences. This has engendered a why bother mind set, well if you want to do it right then you now have the knowledge and hopefully the tools to do it..

Prof ,
Love your reply, but would you mind if I put you forward for the next speaker in the House of Commons when Bercow packs up, carry on my friend with your helpful replies,

 

[saint-spoon]

To try to restore some calm In the real world safe loading is partially trial and error, the basic principles remain the same but every caravan is different and will handle differently.
.

Very true Parksy, it took me a good six months until I was happy with the loading and now I have only a single gas bottle in the front locker (the other I put in the boot), almost everything else goes over the caravan axle with the cadac sitting slightly behind the axle and the wastehog and aquaroll sitting in the front. That seems to be about right for me towing with my santé fe… the terrano was slightly different as the tow ball was slightly lower top accommodate the number plate.

 

[Dustydog]

We all agree a " Not bothered" attitude to nose load is a recipe for disaster.
Sir Sproket and Sir Gagakev designed a steel frame system for use with the bathroom scales adjustable for height.
As you all know I use a Reich gauge which is electronic and allegedly calibrated at the factory for a TA.
last year using the Prof's method with the Woos ie type frame I was very surprised the difference in readings was negligible.
I assumed the bathroom scales were accurate.The fact the Reich gave very similar readings was interesting. In essence the Reich for me was calibrated reasonable accurately.
The old Milenco yellow spring gauge was also checked. Sorry to say it was rubbish and chucked in the bin.
Sir Gabs grandad gave us a demonstration of calibration at the last Woosifest.

We have a picture back home which I'll post later next week.
Calibration of the bathroom scales is easy using pre measured weights. So checking with other devices is probably still going to give you an accurate check. Whilst the caravan must be level there is no doubt I my experience that a 2 inch variation in static mode doesn't appear to make much difference to the readings. I can't explain tbat

 

[Raywood]

How about the magazine testing nose weight gauges to try and see if they are worthwhile and which is best.

 

[pitpony]

How about the magazine testing nose weight gauges to try and see if they are worthwhile and which is best.

I agree100%

 

[chrisn7]

My van is fitted with an Alko Premium jockey wheel with built in gauge. The instructions give a clear description of how to calibrate it. Once this is done, you only need to put a mark on the scale that must not be exceeded. With van level and JW castored to the rear, I simply wind the jockey wheel to the hitch running height using a high-tech pre-measured wooden stick, then a look at the gauge and I'm done. If Parksy blinked he would miss it!

Whatever people feel about the merits of the Alko, in the end, it is a commercially produced item, made by a reputable company designed to be relied upon by the consumer, which is really as far as one could reasonably be expected to go (in the real world)

 

[Hutch]

We are on That Nose Weight Problem Again. :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo:

 

[ProfJohnL]

Thank you Chrisn7 for your last post. I was particularly pleased to see that you have to do a calibration process and made a point of ensuring the JW was always castered in the same direction. I know this is important and it is good to read that Alko who supply the Premium JW also recognise the importance of this vital consistency.

But a point you raise in your post about the commercial available processes being enough and all that we can do, is worrying. If we consider a case were you are accused of speeding, and you claim your speedometer showed you were not speeding, it would not be accepted, as speed limits are absolute and it is your responsibility to ensure you remain within them regardless of the equipment you use.

The same principal applies to vehicle weights and loadings. Not withstanding Parksy's reservations about there being no reports of nose load prosecutions, that does not mean there have been none, it could just be they've not been high profile enough to warrant press attention, but also it highly likely that if a nose load transgression is detected, its usually a relatively simple matter for the driver to rearrange the load within the caravan to correct the situation, and will probably just warrants a warning/caution and not taken to prosecution.

If you don't know the inherent error of measuring equipment, then you can't know how much to allow for its inaccuracies.

 

[Dustydog]

How about the magazine testing nose weight gauges to try and see if they are worthwhile and which is best.

I'll raise a glass to that.
Excellent suggestion and Practical Caravanning

 

[Mel]

Hi tow balls, dunno if you are still there, but, if it helps, we have had 3 vans and they have all felt a bit different when towed. We always checked nose weight according to good advice and loaded sensibly as per the Caravan Club towing course. Checked tyre pressures etc. Yet they all felt different, the first one always felt a bit twitchy, the second sort of snatched a bit when pulling off, the third has been the smoothest. So far.
Don't know what any of this means but there is a certain amount of getting used to your van.
Don't give up.
Mel

 

[pitpony]

Thank you Chrisn7 for your last post. I was particularly pleased to see that you have to do a calibration process and made a point of ensuring the JW was always castered in the same direction. I know this is important and it is good to read that Alko who supply the Premium JW also recognise the importance of this vital consistency.

But a point you raise in your post about the commercial available processes being enough and all that we can do, is worrying. If we consider a case were you are accused of speeding, and you claim your speedometer showed you were not speeding, it would not be accepted, as speed limits are absolute and it is your responsibility to ensure you remain within them regardless of the equipment you use.

The same principal applies to vehicle weights and loadings. Not withstanding Parksy's reservations about there being no reports of nose load prosecutions, that does not mean there have been none, it could just be they've not been high profile enough to warrant press attention, but also it highly likely that if a nose load transgression is detected, its usually a relatively simple matter for the driver to rearrange the load within the caravan to correct the situation, and will probably just warrants a warning/caution and not taken to prosecution.

If you don't know the inherent error of measuring equipment, then you can't know how much to allow for its inaccuracies.

Prof
, You do reply to a post with a well mannered reply with excellent English, keep on the good work,

 

[Gafferbill]

.....and when you have measured the noseweight to an accuracy of 3 decimal places remember not to move the caravan as your careful calculations will be disturbed.

 

[Parksy]

.....and when you have measured the noseweight to an accuracy of 3 decimal places remember not to move the caravan as your careful calculations will be disturbed.

:lol: :lol: :lol: I'm saying nowt :lol: :lol: :lol: