Towing Issue - pulling and pushing

[towballs]

We've recently purchased our first caravan after many years of holidaying under canvas. We bought a 2007 Bailey Ranger 510/4 Series 5 based on the towing capacity for our 2013 Kia Cee'd SW (estate).

After collecting it from the dealer I could't help noticing (amongst the obvious lack of power) that the car was being pulled and pushed by the caravan. This maybe just down to me getting used to towing for the first time or that the caravan didn't have anything other than the gas bottle in the front locker and the free starter kit from the dealer placed over the axel.

The starter pack comprised of an awning, Wastemaster water container and grey water container, power cable etc.

We stayed overnight after collecting the caravan and before setting off I placed more items in the locker, plates and cups etc put away in their cupboards and no items were placed over the axel. There was less pulling and pushing this time round.

Does anyone know what could cause this or what I need to do to reduce this?

Many thanks.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello towballs,

If you have never towed a caravan before, then it does feel very different to driving the solo car. Performance will always be affected, after all with all the luggage, and people plus's the caravan, you are probably doubling the normal weight of the car, so especially accelerating is going to be much slower. Braking shouldn't be much different as the caravan has its brakes. So the outfit is going to be bus like in size and performance.

The caravan has what is called an "overrun' braking system. When you brake, the car starts to slow down, but the inertia of the caravan tries to keep it moving. This causes the caravan to start to push against the ball hitch, which compresses the caravans tow hitch. This compression starts to apply the caravan's brakes. Providing the brakes are functioning properly, in fraction of a second they will apply and start to slow the caravan down to match the speed of the car.

When the car stops braking, or starts to accelerate, this pulls the hitch and releases the brakes. These two actions can sometimes be felt in the car, and maybe what you experienced. If you have any doubts about you car or caravan brakes function get them checked, do not rely on anonymous forums where contributors cannot see or test them, and you have know way of knowing the accuracy of the advice given.

New caravans fresh from the manufacturer or dealer are usually devoid of many of the items you will normally have in the caravan. This means the balance of the van is not optimised for you. It's by loading items inside the van that you adjust the nose load produced by the caravans hitch. This is important as it affects the way an outit behaves when being driven. Too little nose load reduces the stability, and too much is not only illegal but can damage the car or caravan. Both your car and caravan will have nose load limits (S value) and if there is a difference between them you must observe the lsmaller value as the top limit.

No one can tell you what your nose load figure should be, the optimum will be unique to each outfit, and iin theory it changes if you load the caravan differently, but as sensible starting point I suggest you aim for between 75 90% of the applicable S value.

If you've nsufficient nose load, then when you brake or accelerate, or when the caravan meets pothole or bump in the road, the caravan can rock and you may feel the caravan actually trying to lift the towball, again this may be what you felt, however generally unloaded caravans are nose heavy, so it's less likely to have been this, and in fact many caravanner report the reworks nose load of caravans is actually to much many domestic cars, and really you need to add some ballast to trim empty caravans to bring the nose load into the cars range. Obviously you use your own belongings to trim the nose load when going on holiday.

 

[towballs]

Hi ProfJohnL,

Many thanks for your response. A lot of very helpful advise there.

 

[Hutch]

Welcome Towballs, totally agree with the Prof, just kooked on the Freedom website, and its quoting a nose weight of 50 kg for your van. And a max payload of 130 kg, inside the van, Nose weight are a big issue between people on here as to how to check it,, there are many different gauges to be purchased, my preferred method is the bathroom scales and wooden blocks to reach the tow hitch when the caravan is level.
And with that I am away from nose weights.
Enjoy your caravan.
Hutch

 

[WoodlandsCamper]

... when the caravan is level.

Who says it has to be level??

The tow ball has to be the same height as when both car and van are packed ready for the journey.

 

[pitpony]

... when the caravan is level.

Who says it has to be level??

The tow ball has to be the same height as when both car and van are packed ready for the journey.

Who says it has to be level?,
The Nose weight Police,

 

[Damian]

Quote " Who says it has to be level?,
The Nose weight Police,
image: http://www.practicalcaravan.com/media/kunena/emoticons/smile.png

image: http://www.practicalcaravan.com/media/kunena/emoticons/wink.png "

There is absolutely no need for sarcastic comments .

The OP asked a very relevant question and received some responses.
The van should be on level ground for weighing purposes.

So, why could that have not been said in the first place instead of cryptic and sarcastic comments !!!!

 

[WoodlandsCamper]

We weren't talking about the ground being level, but the caravan being level. Yes, the ground has to be level when checking nose weight for safety reasons. But the height of the hitch has to be the same as when it is hitched up with car and van loaded for journey, and this is not necessarily with the caravan being level.

 

[Hutch]

Towballs, keep on asking questions, at times we post info that is taken to liberally, as I said That was My, prefered method, as my van is fairlly level when hooked up, the others were just being tounge in cheek. With no harm meant I am sure.

 

[towballs]

Thank you all for your comments. As I said we are new to this but really exited to be getting into caravanning which we hope will give us many years of happy times just as it did when we were under canvas - but a lot more comfortable!!

We certainly know that we don't expect to get it right first time, but then that's part of the fun. I hope to draw more info from all of you more experienced peeps in the future.

 

[Dustydog]

I have stayed away for a while from this forum out of sheer frustration at the Key Board Warrior comments and puerility and holier than thou comments. hmy: :woohoo: :evil:
Come on guys . Towballs is an absolute novice. What he needs is this http://www.caravanclub.co.uk/advice-and-training/training-courses

Towballs . Go on one of these courses with SWMBO. You will meet experts who will be gentle and talk you through all aspects of towing and dealing with a caravan. You will come away a very knowledgeable chap, Good luck

 

[xtrailman]

Excessive pushing could be a worn hitch damper, or brakes out of adjustment.

Never been on any towing course myself, but i believe the caravan club insurance gives a discount if you have.

 

[towballs]

Thanks Dustydog, great idea that!!!

 

[towballs]

Thanks xtrailman - The caravan was purchased through a dealer who gave it a service before we collected it. Would a faulty hitch damper and brakes not have been checked? We have a 12 month warranty so this could be checked i suppose, just not easy having to return it so soon.

 

[Damian]

If the van was serviced by the dealer before you took it, the hitch , brakes and everything else will have been checked.
The usual reason for strange behaviour of a new van is twofold.
First you are not used to having a huge brick attached to the back of your car.
Secondly is a new van has only minimal stuff on board so it is usually light on the towball.
With correct loading of your items to achieve the best hitch load (as high as possible within the limits) the van will settle and behave itself.

Unless there is a fault with the hitch damper, which is very unusual, don't even worry about it, certainly do not be led down the road of "there must be a problem".

 

[Tuningdrew]

We've recently purchased our first caravan after many years of holidaying under canvas. We bought a 2007 Bailey Ranger 510/4 Series 5 based on the towing capacity for our 2013 Kia Cee'd SW (estate).

After collecting it from the dealer I could't help noticing (amongst the obvious lack of power) that the car was being pulled and pushed by the caravan. This maybe just down to me getting used to towing for the first time or that the caravan didn't have anything other than the gas bottle in the front locker and the free starter kit from the dealer placed over the axel.

The starter pack comprised of an awning, Wastemaster water container and grey water container, power cable etc.

We stayed overnight after collecting the caravan and before setting off I placed more items in the locker, plates and cups etc put away in their cupboards and no items were placed over the axel. There was less pulling and pushing this time round.

Does anyone know what could cause this or what I need to do to reduce this?

Many thanks.

Hi Towballs, welcome to the fold! As others have said, noseweight would be the issue here if you feel the caravan tugging at the car and should be addressed first. Too heavy and the van drags the back of the car down, too light and it feels like the 'van is dancing away on the towbar. There are plenty of instructional videos out there on pretty much anything and everything to do with caravanning. The other thing to watch is the payload inside the caravan. 130kg is not a lot to play with and manufacturers figures can be a bit ambiguous. The important figure is the MTPLM weight. This will be found on a little sticker next to the door. This weight must never be exceeded. Best way to establish exactly how much gear you can stow in your van is to empty it of your personal stuff and take it to a weighbridge (there are loads out there) Weigh you car first then weigh the car and caravan together. Deduct the weight of the car and you will have the basic weight of your van. Subtract this from the MTPLM figure and you will have your maximum payload allowance. Now the fun starts, weigh absolutely everything you'd like to carry on the van permanently, crockery and cutlery plus the kit for pitching up like pegs, water containers, toilet chemicals, kitchen stuff (washing up and cleaning stuff) awning furniture, chairsand the like and see whats left which you can use for clothes, towels , bedding, toiletries. Hopefully there's enough left for your awning, poles and groundsheet to be stowed directly over the axle. I have found that the pitching stuff and toilet chems are enough to go into the front locker to get the noseweight right but if need be you can shift the awning forwards or slightly backwards in relation to the axle to get it right but NEVER put weight right at the back of the van as it can have a pendulum effect.
Remember you're not trying to load the van to it's max, just not exceeding it, the more you can get into the car without overloading it, the better. Juggle stuff around between car and 'van to get a better balance. We have a set of stacking, collapsible plastic crates which we load with clothes, food and cooking stuff which stack in the car. May sound a bit daunting at first but once you have it sussed it's easy, just try and travel as light as you can, food and drink can be bought once you've arrived on site so don't carry it with you. Above all though, enjoy the experience!

 

[towballs]

Hi Tuningdrew,

Thank you so much for this advice. We have already weighed every item that will be carried in the caravan so we know that we are well under the limit. As you and others have suggested it's the nose weight we need to tweek so will start there and see how we get on. Thanks again.

 

[Plodd]

I have recently started towing as a complete novice.
I am driving a 9 month old car with a brand new caravan so I would hope all is right with both. I agree though that the feeling of the van 'tugging' at the car is an unusual one.
I now get used to it quite quickly and sometimes almost forget the van is there, but in a good way.
There is loads of research to be done and I have done most of it. I also purchased a nose weight gauge as I like to make sure i'm trying to do things right.
Overall have fun, i'm even enjoying the towing part of the trips away now and I never thought I would say that.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Welcome Towballs, totally agree with the Prof, just kooked on the Freedom website, and its quoting a nose weight of 50 kg for your van. And a max payload of 130 kg, inside the van, Nose weight are a big issue between people on here as to how to check it,, there are many different gauges to be purchased, my preferred method is the bathroom scales and wooden blocks to reach the tow hitch when the caravan is level.
And with that I am away from nose weights.
Enjoy your caravan.
Hutch

The OP does not have a Freedom caravan, so that information is of no value here,

And along with others I must point out the requirement for nose load measurement (according to the EU regs) is the hitch must be same height as the loaded towball. This must be done on level ground to avoid inaccuracies.

In practice some caravans may be level but that is purely a coincidence of the loaded tow ball settling to that particular height.

 

[ProfJohnL]

... I have found that the pitching stuff and toilet chems are enough to go into the front locker to get the noseweight right but if need be you can shift the awning forwards or slightly backwards in relation to the axle to get it right but NEVER put weight right at the back of the van as it can have a pendulum effect. ...

As I pointed out earlier, the optimum nose load for a caravan is unique to every outfit, and is affected by the way the caravan is loaded, so suggesting some specific items can be loaded in particular places may suit the writer, but may not be suitable for everyone else. But the second point about end loading is too black and white, Never is too stronger word for it, as with so many things excess is bad, but moderation can be a sensible approach. With regards to "NEVER put weight right at the back of the van" Yes it will increase the Yaw inertia and it should be avoided, but sometimes and in moderation it is a perfectly acceptable process. After all some caravan manufacturers may use the end of the same caravan body for different purposes, bathrooms, kitchens, bedrooms etc each of these will have different mass at the end of the caravan and the heavier ones are still acceptable and even with pay load items. So its not "Never" but sensible moderation will probably be fine.

 

[Hutch]

Sorry Towballs, got two threads mixed up. But hope your next trip out, is a good one.

 

[Tuningdrew]

... I have found that the pitching stuff and toilet chems are enough to go into the front locker to get the noseweight right but if need be you can shift the awning forwards or slightly backwards in relation to the axle to get it right but NEVER put weight right at the back of the van as it can have a pendulum effect. ...

As I pointed out earlier, the optimum nose load for a caravan is unique to every outfit, and is affected by the way the caravan is loaded, so suggesting some specific items can be loaded in particular places may suit the writer, but may not be suitable for everyone else. But the second point about end loading is too black and white, Never is too stronger word for it, as with so many things excess is bad, but moderation can be a sensible approach. With regards to "NEVER put weight right at the back of the van" Yes it will increase the Yaw inertia and it should be avoided, but sometimes and in moderation it is a perfectly acceptable process. After all some caravan manufacturers may use the end of the same caravan body for different purposes, bathrooms, kitchens, bedrooms etc each of these will have different mass at the end of the caravan and the heavier ones are still acceptable and even with pay load items. So its not "Never" but sensible moderation will probably be fine.

Your point being???

 

[Dustydog]

And??????
As an old Grumpy dog let me tell you the Prof doesn't talk for nothing .If you can't comprehend his detailed explanation regarding NEVER please ask again and I'll try with three letter words and big pictures B) :kiss: :evil:

 

[Tuningdrew]

Sorry to ruffle feathers in the old boy network. Just seemed to be a pointless and verbose statement to just to be pedantic when all I'm trying to do is lend a friendly helping hand to a newcomer. So 'Prof is saying it's quite acceptable to lump heavy items anywhere you like in the van to get the balance. Well I stand corrected and I'll try not to slam the door on my way out of the officers club
Goodbye

 

[Hutch]

Dusty, your not normally this Grumpy, whats happened, puncture on one of the many tyres of the caravan.
Hutch. Anywhere open over your way all year . Caravan back tomorrow.
Hutch.