Towing mirror minefield query…

[Buckman]

This will answer the debate of rear view caravan camera v towing car mirrors

Towing Mirrors vs Rear Camera?

Do you really need extended mirrors if you have a rear camera? Short answer - yes. Longer answer - YES YOU DO... There has been several comments of late

www.andaroundwego.com

Hopefully you noticed that was for Australia? Although probably similar, I think our legislation will be based on EU legislation and requirements may now be different if rearward cameras were fitted?

 

[RogerL]

Don't most newer HGVs come with cameras as the requirement is for them to see sides and rear and the cameras fulfil that function as per the legislation so probably no need to external mirrors?

I think they're just an option on new HGVs - to replace the multitude of mirror elements that are needed conventionally

 

[Buckman]

I am fairly sure that many years ago Lutz posted a link to the actual EU legislation? Maybe he can find it again?

 

[otherclive]

If Audi are fitting camera mirrors to some models then it must be legal in the markets they are sold in. But it does beggar the question of how to address towing to ensure that the driver can see down the vehicle without blind spots.

 

[Buckman]

If Audi are fitting camera mirrors to some models then it must be legal in the markets they are sold in. But it does beggar the question of how to address towing to ensure that the driver can see down the vehicle without blind spots.

Maybe I misunderstood, but surely you would use your normal viewing camera / mirrors to see sides of car? The trailer / camera would need to rear camera also for the driver to comply with the law.

 

[ProfJohnL]

As I recall, when an outfit is aligned, the driver should be able to see the whole side extent of both sides of the vehicle (and trailer) and the bifurcated area behind the outfit to an additional width of 4m wide at 20m distance rearward from the driver.
To achieve this the mirrors must extend beyond the width of the vehicle and trailer. Not even a camera can see round corners.

 

[RogerL]

I agree with Prof

The comparison with HGV camera systems is misleading as the cab normally has the wide body fitted behind it - so the cameras are positioned out far enough to see along the body.

A car doesn't normally have a wide trailer behind it so any factory-fit camera systems won't take that into account.

For towing a caravan/trailer, the requirement will still exist that the mirror or camera must extend beyond the width of the caravan/trailer in order to give the required field of view - so what will the extended mirror/camera be attached to on a car with only cameras?

 

[Guzzilazz]

Don't most newer HGVs come with cameras as the requirement is for them to see sides and rear and the cameras fulfil that function as per the legislation so probably no need to external mirrors?

Only Mercedes have adopted so far...

 

[Gafferbill]

.....saw a large Audi car parked up today.
(no caravan)
It didn't have mirrors, it had small cameras in the end of 15cms thin stalks on each side where mirrors would normally be.
Presumably the driver gets rear views on a dashboard screen.
I have no idea how you would fit towing mirrors or whether the stalks extend.
Maybe Audi haven't even considered caravan towing with their camera equipped cars?
Anyone more gened up than meis is the Audi I saw?

Audi ....click here.

 

[Buckman]

Surely a rear mounted wide angle camera on a trailer will allow to see anything that is about to pass you even a motorcycle as by that time it is within the vision of the car camera or mirror? Then there is probably no necessity for extended mirrors? If the driver is dumb enough not to check the camera or mirrors and there are plenty of those drivers, then surely they are at fault.

However any argument regarding cameras or mirrors is overridden by legislation and so far none of us have been able to point to legislation regarding rear vision, mirrors and cameras, but perhaps they have not got around to updating legislation to suit the 21st century.

 

[Dustydog]

Good video Bill. I wonder if the little arms extends automatically when connected to a caravan rather than a flat bed trailer😉. I bet they cost an arm and a leg to replace🙀

This is image I meant to post showing the U.K. Legal requirements

 

[otherclive]

Surely a rear mounted wide angle camera on a trailer will allow to see anything that is about to pass you even a motorcycle as by that time it is within the vision of the car camera or mirror? Then there is probably no necessity for extended mirrors? If the driver is dumb enough not to check the camera or mirrors and there are plenty of those drivers, then surely they are at fault.

However any argument regarding cameras or mirrors is overridden by legislation and so far none of us have been able to point to legislation regarding rear vision, mirrors and cameras, but perhaps they have not got around to updating legislation to suit the 21st century.

They have to meet C&U regulation in UK it doesn’t specifically rule on specific vision devices. It’s more a set of principles. So it’s up to the car makers to design them to meet the regulations.

 

[Buckman]

They have to meet C&U regulation in UK it doesn’t specifically rule on specific vision devices. It’s more a set of principles. So it’s up to the car makers to design them to meet the regulations.

That is the issue. The car manufacturer is designing them to meet current regulations, but not taking into account that the car can a tow trailer that is wider than the car.

 

[Dustydog]

Or people like Milenco step in😎

 

[otherclive]

That is the issue. The car manufacturer is designing them to meet current regulations, but not taking into account that the car can a tow trailer that is wider than the car.

The car manufacturers do not have to take into account the need to tow a caravan. If they had done then none of us would have required to buy towing mirrors, and Milenco profits would have been lower.

 

[Buckman]

The car manufacturers do not have to take into account the need to tow a caravan. If they had done then none of us would have required to buy towing mirrors, and Milenco profits would have been lower.

I was agreeing with you??

 

[ProfJohnL]

For as long as the regulations have been effective, I am not aware of any normal car that came with wing mirrors that could be adjusted so it could tow the maximum legal width of trailer. It has always been the drivers responsibility to provide extension mirrors, and how to decide how they are fitted.

Why should that change when car manufacturers fit rear view cameras rather than mirrors?