Hi Seth.
You are correct in assuming that an ECU controls when the spark is supplied to your engine.
However electrinic control is only as good as the accuracy of the trigger points. That is, knowing that the cam shaft is actually at it's optimum point, and likewise for the crank.
Now linking that to an old computer saying "Garbage in garbage out", if the computer is fed duff info or the comuter fails to interprit the info, you then get ingnition fire too early or too late to maximise the bang in the engine.
I have a perfect example in an old Renault 25 I owned. The ECU packed up one day, rendering the engine sparkless. now as the car was very old and the cost of a new ECU being 3 times what the car was worth, i thought she was going to the scrapyard. Out of pure inquisitiveness and being an engineer I enlisted some advice from my brother-in-law who is a master mechanic and very electronically gifted.
He checked the ECU and found that it registered ignition firing in 4 degree increments and due to a failure internally it was now 4 degrees out of sink with the sensor. So all we did was to elongate the mounting holes on the crankshaft sensor enough to compensate for this 4 degree error. After re-timing the engine with the strobe the car actually ran much smoother and did so for another 60K miles and more after I'd sold it on.
By optimising your engine, all you are doing is making more efficient use of the fuel injected into it. Therefore you do get positive benifits without costing more in fuel consumption.
Steve L.
You are correct in assuming that an ECU controls when the spark is supplied to your engine.
However electrinic control is only as good as the accuracy of the trigger points. That is, knowing that the cam shaft is actually at it's optimum point, and likewise for the crank.
Now linking that to an old computer saying "Garbage in garbage out", if the computer is fed duff info or the comuter fails to interprit the info, you then get ingnition fire too early or too late to maximise the bang in the engine.
I have a perfect example in an old Renault 25 I owned. The ECU packed up one day, rendering the engine sparkless. now as the car was very old and the cost of a new ECU being 3 times what the car was worth, i thought she was going to the scrapyard. Out of pure inquisitiveness and being an engineer I enlisted some advice from my brother-in-law who is a master mechanic and very electronically gifted.
He checked the ECU and found that it registered ignition firing in 4 degree increments and due to a failure internally it was now 4 degrees out of sink with the sensor. So all we did was to elongate the mounting holes on the crankshaft sensor enough to compensate for this 4 degree error. After re-timing the engine with the strobe the car actually ran much smoother and did so for another 60K miles and more after I'd sold it on.
By optimising your engine, all you are doing is making more efficient use of the fuel injected into it. Therefore you do get positive benifits without costing more in fuel consumption.
Steve L.
- Mar 14, 2005
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Hi again Seth,
To be fair I was taking the broader view, as the topic clearly has repercussions for anyone in any type of vehicle that was considering a performance boost of some kind.
Even taking your narrower perspective of just diesels, there are now several well known manufacturers that use diesel engines in some of their 'GTI' models.
It is reasonable to expect the original car manufacture to have done all the necessary development work to ensure that all the drive train and ancillary equipment is capable of handling the power from the engine.
If we consider a particular manufacture who uses the same basic diesel engine in a wide range of models and under four different brand names, the basic engine is chipped to I believe about 6 different power outputs ranging from 90 to 150bhp. In theory it could be possible to re-chip the basic 90bhp model to 150. Whilst the engine block may be sufficiently durable, the ancillaries may not;
Engine mounts may not cope with the extra torque
The cooling system may not have the capacity to cope with extra energy through put of the engine,
The induction and exhaust systems may not breath correctly.
The clutch may not be of sufficient capacity, the gearbox will almost certainly have the wrong ratios,
And suspension, tyres and brakes my not provide the margin for road holding and stopping.
So even with a OEM based solution it is not necessarily a simple route to more power. The situation as you rightly point out may be worse with 'ebay' special, where none of the equivalent will have been assessed or approved by the manufacturer.
It is of course conceivable that an owner of a 150bhp 'GTI' model may wish to consider a further performance boost. Here the manufacture has already decided that 150 is enough for the normal market, so they will have engineered the vehicle to that level. It is possible that the manufacture does not believe there is much further scope for power output from that block, and a further 30% might be too much.
And your last point. Cars are manufactured to conform to the same EU standards, But the design of the car may be uprated to supersede the standard depending on a number of factors one of which will be engine power and the performance it endows on the particular model.
As Lutz points out, what would be the point of fitting the 150bhp clutch to 90bhp engine?, similar arguments applies across the vehicle from size of air filters to the bore of the exhaust.
For the reasons underlying my explanation above, I do not consider it to be a foregone conclusion that a 30% power increase will be with the capability of all cars.
To be fair I was taking the broader view, as the topic clearly has repercussions for anyone in any type of vehicle that was considering a performance boost of some kind.
Even taking your narrower perspective of just diesels, there are now several well known manufacturers that use diesel engines in some of their 'GTI' models.
It is reasonable to expect the original car manufacture to have done all the necessary development work to ensure that all the drive train and ancillary equipment is capable of handling the power from the engine.
If we consider a particular manufacture who uses the same basic diesel engine in a wide range of models and under four different brand names, the basic engine is chipped to I believe about 6 different power outputs ranging from 90 to 150bhp. In theory it could be possible to re-chip the basic 90bhp model to 150. Whilst the engine block may be sufficiently durable, the ancillaries may not;
Engine mounts may not cope with the extra torque
The cooling system may not have the capacity to cope with extra energy through put of the engine,
The induction and exhaust systems may not breath correctly.
The clutch may not be of sufficient capacity, the gearbox will almost certainly have the wrong ratios,
And suspension, tyres and brakes my not provide the margin for road holding and stopping.
So even with a OEM based solution it is not necessarily a simple route to more power. The situation as you rightly point out may be worse with 'ebay' special, where none of the equivalent will have been assessed or approved by the manufacturer.
It is of course conceivable that an owner of a 150bhp 'GTI' model may wish to consider a further performance boost. Here the manufacture has already decided that 150 is enough for the normal market, so they will have engineered the vehicle to that level. It is possible that the manufacture does not believe there is much further scope for power output from that block, and a further 30% might be too much.
And your last point. Cars are manufactured to conform to the same EU standards, But the design of the car may be uprated to supersede the standard depending on a number of factors one of which will be engine power and the performance it endows on the particular model.
As Lutz points out, what would be the point of fitting the 150bhp clutch to 90bhp engine?, similar arguments applies across the vehicle from size of air filters to the bore of the exhaust.
For the reasons underlying my explanation above, I do not consider it to be a foregone conclusion that a 30% power increase will be with the capability of all cars.
Steve i fully understand the princibles behind an electronic control module,i also fully understand whats inside them,after all im the guy that programs the things,besides obviously the ROM chip (read only memory)which is programmed by the ECM maker.
But here were talking current cars.No desrespect,not an "OLD" Renault 25.Your not very likely to "adjust" a timing sensor by elongating the slot on a new Audi.Surly this is as bad as an ebay special?Its a bodge.sorry.
John L,you seem to miss the point,as ive said the power hike may not be ideal but more so in the way its carried out.
Example,i had the pleasure of looking at a boost parameter(map)
on a car that had just been mapped by a so called good firm.This was viewed through a friends laptop accordingly with the correct software,which we dont have.
The screenshot was in graph form with corrected and oem trace.oem underneath corrected.
Problem was all the boost came suddenly in at 1800 rpm and this was clearly visable.Ageed this would cause trouble.But the 30%hike if,it followed the oem trace would be debatable.
The outfit i mentioned earlier are based in Austria,have worked closly with the makers not just fiat,acredited with an industry standard,spend high amounts of money on R+D to back up their claims.In other words solid fact not opinion.
But here were talking current cars.No desrespect,not an "OLD" Renault 25.Your not very likely to "adjust" a timing sensor by elongating the slot on a new Audi.Surly this is as bad as an ebay special?Its a bodge.sorry.
John L,you seem to miss the point,as ive said the power hike may not be ideal but more so in the way its carried out.
Example,i had the pleasure of looking at a boost parameter(map)
on a car that had just been mapped by a so called good firm.This was viewed through a friends laptop accordingly with the correct software,which we dont have.
The screenshot was in graph form with corrected and oem trace.oem underneath corrected.
Problem was all the boost came suddenly in at 1800 rpm and this was clearly visable.Ageed this would cause trouble.But the 30%hike if,it followed the oem trace would be debatable.
The outfit i mentioned earlier are based in Austria,have worked closly with the makers not just fiat,acredited with an industry standard,spend high amounts of money on R+D to back up their claims.In other words solid fact not opinion.
- Mar 14, 2005
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Hello Seth,
I don't belive we are too far apart in what we are discussing. I think we are approaching the issue from sligtly differnt directions which explains the variance in our jottings.
Where we do still have a differnce of opinion is regarding the ability to safely boost the power of ANY engine. Whilst there is little doubt the power can be boosted, whetehr it is wise to do it with off the shelf add in units or with remapping is still open to debate.
In some case I and sure the mechanical ancilliaries also need to be revised to cope with the increases in power. so simply boosting power is not always appropriate.
I don't belive we are too far apart in what we are discussing. I think we are approaching the issue from sligtly differnt directions which explains the variance in our jottings.
Where we do still have a differnce of opinion is regarding the ability to safely boost the power of ANY engine. Whilst there is little doubt the power can be boosted, whetehr it is wise to do it with off the shelf add in units or with remapping is still open to debate.
In some case I and sure the mechanical ancilliaries also need to be revised to cope with the increases in power. so simply boosting power is not always appropriate.
Hi John.
You are quite right to mention uprating the ancilary mechanicals.
It would be very prudent to fit vented brake discs and cometition brake pads to cope with any power boost of 20% or more. Also the suspension might require uprating to cope with any extra cornering forces.
Of coarse by the time all this has been declared to the insurance company, ones premium is likely to be inflated like a zeplin!
Descreet inturnal "massaging" of the engine is not noticable to the average mechanic. On my Laguna for instance the only give away to any mdifications are the rienforced braided water hoses between the radiator and the engine. I've put the K&N air filter into the original air box.
As you know I'm a bit of a "petrolhead" and enjoy driving vehicles to their ultimate, but one doesn't have to fall into the trap of racing the nuts off the family car, just to "look cool". I have proven this many times when training drivers in efficient and safe driving of fleet vehicles. Keeping a mean average speed up by carefull and observant driving pays more dividend in achieving good fuel economy and shortest journey times. (the hare and the tortoise senario come to mind).
Regards.
Steve L.
You are quite right to mention uprating the ancilary mechanicals.
It would be very prudent to fit vented brake discs and cometition brake pads to cope with any power boost of 20% or more. Also the suspension might require uprating to cope with any extra cornering forces.
Of coarse by the time all this has been declared to the insurance company, ones premium is likely to be inflated like a zeplin!
Descreet inturnal "massaging" of the engine is not noticable to the average mechanic. On my Laguna for instance the only give away to any mdifications are the rienforced braided water hoses between the radiator and the engine. I've put the K&N air filter into the original air box.
As you know I'm a bit of a "petrolhead" and enjoy driving vehicles to their ultimate, but one doesn't have to fall into the trap of racing the nuts off the family car, just to "look cool". I have proven this many times when training drivers in efficient and safe driving of fleet vehicles. Keeping a mean average speed up by carefull and observant driving pays more dividend in achieving good fuel economy and shortest journey times. (the hare and the tortoise senario come to mind).
Regards.
Steve L.
Interesting thread, plenty of old wives tales too, even from those who work in the garage business.
Indeed Fiat are not the only company out there with agreements to chipping companies! You will found quite a few BMW, MERCEDES VW/AUDI ECT ECT, have at one time or another had this arrangement, indeed quite strange that Fiat has a agreement with an Austrain firm when it has a number of partners in Italy itself, no doubt just another one added to the fold.sorry I forgot Ford, whose 6 speed gearbox [is it the mt 28 or 75 cannot remember] in their TDCI really isn't upto 30% increases, so there goes one theory concerning ease, indeed the injectors in the ford 2.2tdci, are at there limits at 200 bhp! and as 30% in the case of the 2.2 [155] would be 201.5 bhp then again 30% would be very hard, well impossible as the intercooler simply cannot go above 190 bhp!
As for the VW range the 115 130 150 have the same lump but even the head bolts are different, as are intercoolers and turbo's, and indeed the more powerful ones have extra oil ways for spraying the underside of the pistons! Why would you do that if it was so easy to get an extra 30bhp with a simple remap!
Tunnig boxes, there are some good ones and some bad ones, just like cars, some work brilliantly and some don't,and the good ones do far more than just add pressure and fuel!indeed they almost follow the remap way, which in itself has 2 ways changing the parimentors of the original STANDARD ECU, or remapping the actual car individually, like making a special map for your individual car.
Mind you no ones really complained about the standards ECU's limitations as its a one box fits all,of the same model so not perfect in the first place.
A decent remap or tuning box can be good value,but i would recommend an hour on a rolling road too,then you will see good benefits avoid spikes like the big jump mentioned earlier that will do damage..
ps everything here is more to do with diesels more so than petrols as diesel burn with an abundant of extra AIR, something petrols cannot do, and a reason why MILD tune ups of 10 or 15% are easierly achieved without adding stress to certain parts.
Indeed Fiat are not the only company out there with agreements to chipping companies! You will found quite a few BMW, MERCEDES VW/AUDI ECT ECT, have at one time or another had this arrangement, indeed quite strange that Fiat has a agreement with an Austrain firm when it has a number of partners in Italy itself, no doubt just another one added to the fold.sorry I forgot Ford, whose 6 speed gearbox [is it the mt 28 or 75 cannot remember] in their TDCI really isn't upto 30% increases, so there goes one theory concerning ease, indeed the injectors in the ford 2.2tdci, are at there limits at 200 bhp! and as 30% in the case of the 2.2 [155] would be 201.5 bhp then again 30% would be very hard, well impossible as the intercooler simply cannot go above 190 bhp!
As for the VW range the 115 130 150 have the same lump but even the head bolts are different, as are intercoolers and turbo's, and indeed the more powerful ones have extra oil ways for spraying the underside of the pistons! Why would you do that if it was so easy to get an extra 30bhp with a simple remap!
Tunnig boxes, there are some good ones and some bad ones, just like cars, some work brilliantly and some don't,and the good ones do far more than just add pressure and fuel!indeed they almost follow the remap way, which in itself has 2 ways changing the parimentors of the original STANDARD ECU, or remapping the actual car individually, like making a special map for your individual car.
Mind you no ones really complained about the standards ECU's limitations as its a one box fits all,of the same model so not perfect in the first place.
A decent remap or tuning box can be good value,but i would recommend an hour on a rolling road too,then you will see good benefits avoid spikes like the big jump mentioned earlier that will do damage..
ps everything here is more to do with diesels more so than petrols as diesel burn with an abundant of extra AIR, something petrols cannot do, and a reason why MILD tune ups of 10 or 15% are easierly achieved without adding stress to certain parts.
Me,very interesting reading that although i do disegree with some points.More interesting though is what you do for a living.The reason i ask is,and i could be totally wrong you sound very similar in your word useage to a guy i had a telephone conversation with.
Another thing that intrigues me and perhaps you can enlighten me is who makes these remaps up?I was told by a certain companie that the "generic" map is bought of a guy in Ireland.Then uploaded were ever.
One more thing ive come accross,these tuners although are fully aware of how to operate a laptop dont seem to have the basic knoledge of how a compression ignition engine operates,or maybe thats just the feeling i get after asking a few basic questions to one reputable outfit.
Another thing that intrigues me and perhaps you can enlighten me is who makes these remaps up?I was told by a certain companie that the "generic" map is bought of a guy in Ireland.Then uploaded were ever.
One more thing ive come accross,these tuners although are fully aware of how to operate a laptop dont seem to have the basic knoledge of how a compression ignition engine operates,or maybe thats just the feeling i get after asking a few basic questions to one reputable outfit.
Yes seth some are generic and can be bought from many places, in fact it is possible to flash them yourself, but like anything quality and understanding what you have done is the key.
Would always recommend a rolling road set up, that way you can be sure if its a sound one or not.
The more modern ones actually are not genetic more a proper "live" job which completely gives you a map solely for you individual car, in theory these are the most accurate [best] but going back to the standard one ECU fits all of the same model/engine, doesn't mean a generic one is that inferior.
I would always say be careful when buying a tuning box [digital] or a remap, do not get carried away the hype... and get it rolling road set up too
Would always recommend a rolling road set up, that way you can be sure if its a sound one or not.
The more modern ones actually are not genetic more a proper "live" job which completely gives you a map solely for you individual car, in theory these are the most accurate [best] but going back to the standard one ECU fits all of the same model/engine, doesn't mean a generic one is that inferior.
I would always say be careful when buying a tuning box [digital] or a remap, do not get carried away the hype... and get it rolling road set up too
Bang on the nail their seth, they know their computers which is good, but as you know there is more to it than that.
Sounds like you are interested?
re tuning box
I fitted what they call a plug in and play chip to my renault grand scenic 130bhp Power went from 130 to 160 bhp also torque increases but it does not affect mpg . when plugged in and with a little adjust ment what a tranfomation the pulls like a train even with my van on lane changes easier no down changes
I fitted what they call a plug in and play chip to my renault grand scenic 130bhp Power went from 130 to 160 bhp also torque increases but it does not affect mpg . when plugged in and with a little adjust ment what a tranfomation the pulls like a train even with my van on lane changes easier no down changes
- Mar 14, 2005
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The subject of tuning boxes has come up several times in this forum, but one has always warned about possible consequences regarding loss of warranty, even of insurance coverage, and the need to reassure one's self that other components (brakes, clutch, engine cooling, etc.) are up to the job of taking an increased power output without further modifications.
- Nov 11, 2009
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Some companies have tuning boxes/chip upgrades available to fit via the Main Dealer franchises. The clue is often whether there is a more powerful version of the car-engine combination. Land Rover used to for the Disco, and Nissan for the diesel Note, but the latter's towing capabilty is a bit restrictive!
- Mar 14, 2005
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Lutz's point is still valid.
If a main dealer fits a manufacture approved tuning device, then the manufacture will have assessed to product and its impact on the other parts of the vehicle. The kit may include other parts that need to be changed to allow the increased power/performance to be managed.
Such information may not be available to the general public, so great care must be exercised when considering after market performance hykes.
If a main dealer fits a manufacture approved tuning device, then the manufacture will have assessed to product and its impact on the other parts of the vehicle. The kit may include other parts that need to be changed to allow the increased power/performance to be managed.
Such information may not be available to the general public, so great care must be exercised when considering after market performance hykes.
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