Uprating the weight of the van. Is the dealer trying it on?

[emmitdb]

Greetings,

I have just rejoined the ranks of Lunar owners.

On my last Lunar, the dealer got me an uprated weight plate from the manufacturers for free.

I asked my dealer (different dealer) this time and he came back a few days later and said Lunar wanted £50 to issue a new plate.

Considering that they put an entry in their book stating that in certain circs. they can uprate the plate I am a little suspicious that the dealer is trying it on.

At £50 that plate must have the value of uranium let alone gold.

Has anyone out there got a new plate recently and did it cost you money?

 

[antrimboy]

This seems to be the norm now. I believe Swift dealers charge a similar amount for an upgraded plate. However, some 'vans can only be upgraded by a very small amount, in which case it is not worth the money, so something to watch out for.

 

[emmitdb]

Eddie,

Thanks for that.

Thats why I asked the question.

Is it the dealers making a quick quid or is it the manufacturers.

I know what the MTPLM is allowed to be and am considering buying a blank plate.

They cannot invalidate my warranty if I up it within their tolerances. After all, they have already told me that it is allowed!

 

[trucker]

Del, Swift charge for this, unless it is a new van and they wave the charge. I had mine done via this forum with Swift at 3 months old, free of charge. I think the charge is @

 

[ProfJohnL]

It is certainly common for a charge to be made for changing the records and issuing a new plate for details of a caravan, whether the 'dealer is trying it on' depends on what the manufactures charge, like Trucker I suggest you contact the Manufacturer.

Whilst the charge may feel unjustified, consider the possible consequences if you illegitimately change the plate:

It is unlikely that a blank plate is available from a legitimate source

Secondly imposing your own data on it is forgery. And could end up as a case fraud if try to sell.

Thirdly the details that the manufacture supplies to Cris will differ from what you have on the caravan. That will ring alarm bells for dealers or punters who check out the details with Cris. Any discrepancy here will depress the value of your caravan, or even make unsaleable.

Your insurance on the caravan may be deemed void, because the caravan is not to its recorded details supplied to and held by the insurance industry.

The safest way is to have the manufacture approved product, with a fully auditable trail to prove it was performed correctly, that in its self will be worth more than

 

[emmitdb]

It is certainly common for a charge to be made for changing the records and issuing a new plate for details of a caravan, whether the 'dealer is trying it on' depends on what the manufactures charge, like Trucker I suggest you contact the Manufacturer.

Whilst the charge may feel unjustified, consider the possible consequences if you illegitimately change the plate:

It is unlikely that a blank plate is available from a legitimate source

Secondly imposing your own data on it is forgery. And could end up as a case fraud if try to sell.

Thirdly the details that the manufacture supplies to Cris will differ from what you have on the caravan. That will ring alarm bells for dealers or punters who check out the details with Cris. Any discrepancy here will depress the value of your caravan, or even make unsaleable.

Your insurance on the caravan may be deemed void, because the caravan is not to its recorded details supplied to and held by the insurance industry.

The safest way is to have the manufacture approved product, with a fully auditable trail to prove it was performed correctly, that in its self will be worth more than

 

[Lutz]

Yes, the plate is a legal document and the name of the manufacturer on the plate is equivalent to a signature. Therefore, any change to an existing plate or an entry made on a blank plate not by the manufacturer amounts to a case of fraud.

 

[emmitdb]

Yes, the plate is a legal document and the name of the manufacturer on the plate is equivalent to a signature. Therefore, any change to an existing plate or an entry made on a blank plate not by the manufacturer amounts to a case of fraud.

Greetings Lutz,

Can I point out to you that for a fraud to be committed there has to be an element of dishonesty. If I put on my caravan a plate that is truthful ie the MTMLM that the manufacturer accepts then that cannot in any circumstances be fraud.

I'm not suggesting that I copy the manufacturuers palte but replace it with an accurate represntation of the truth.

If I were to be hauled before the beak I would call the manufacturers who would have to state the truth with regard to their limit. Wheres the fraud in that?

 

[gary]

One thing I don't understand is, if push come to shove and your 'overloaded' on a road side check as defined my the weight plate on the side of the van, but, not over weight by the weight plate on the axle, then I don't see how any offence has been committed? (assumming tyres and pressures adjusted to suit)

Otherwise what is overloaded? the axle can take what it says it can take, if the vans weight is less then it's not overloaded regardless of the van manufactures plate,

Put another way, unless the axle is capable of taking the

 

[emmitdb]

Gary,

Thanks for your comment.

What I can't understand is the phrase "MTPLM".

What does the 1st M in MTPLM actually mean.

How can it mean "maximum" if the "maximum" can be increased by the issue of a piece of metal. I do appreciate that manufacturers have to attract a wider audience by reducing the "M" to allow a smaller car to tow it.

I have no particular issue with manufacturers charging an amount of money for a new plate but not at a charge of

 

[Lutz]

One of the details that the plate must show is the name of the manufacturer, i.e. the source that is responsible for the weight data which also appears on the plate. If one were to obtain a blank plate and add one's own data, then in effect, one would become a manufacturer in one own's right with all responsibility that this entails.

Gary is questioning how a caravan can be overweight if the weight shown on the axle is not exceeded, even though it may be over the plated weight. Easy, the plate is the only recognised 'document' because only it gives 'ex-works' data.

If a caravan is replated by the manufacturer, then the ex-works condition is consequently also revised.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello del,

It is up to you if you decide to follow or ignore my advice. I think it foolish to follow your suggested action, for the reasons given above.

 

[xtrailman]

del

interesting question. i asked bailey if i could have the "plate" up rated, i was told no.

Apparently swift use three or more axles for their range for example, if i recall correctly (their post is on this forum somewhere).

The lowest rated axle was 1350kg, so i assume my caravan at 1333kg was the 1350kg axle, so no up rating was possible, but thats my assumption.

But anyway of more interest to you, is my present situation, my 2004 bailey "plate", actually a sticker has completely faded, no data can be seen. I emailed bailey who have sent me a new sticker, FREE of charge.

Now as yet i have not stuck it on, but carry it inside the caravan.

My question is this, if the plate is a legal requirement, why do manufacturers' fit a plate that fads? or more accurately "not fit for purpose"?

 

[gary]

Weight

In the case of light trailers, that is less than 3500kg maximum laden weight, there is not any specified relationship in UK law between the weight of the towing vehicle and the weight of the trailer.

For M1 category vehicles (motor vehicles used for the carriage of passengers and comprising not more than eight seats in addition to the driver's seat) the maximum permissible trailer weight is quoted by the vehicle manufacturer. Alternatively, the vehicle manufacturer may provide a maximum gross train weight (the laden weight of the trailer plus the laden weight of the towing vehicle). If this is exceeded it is possible that the Courts or Insurance Companies may take the view that this constitutes a danger.

....................

The maximum laden weight of a trailer which may be towed by a light goods vehicle depends on both the stated gross train weight of the towing vehicle (GTW) and the vehicle. manufacturer's recommended maximum permissible trailer weight.

.....................

Neither the maximum permissible trailer weight or the maximum gross train weight (the laden weight of the trailer plus the laden weight of the towing vehicle) should be exceeded. It is possible that the stated gross train weight is less than the sum of the stated maximum permissible laden weight of the towing vehicle and the stated maximum permissible laden trailer weight. In this case the towing vehicle and the trailer must be loaded such that each does not exceed its individual maximum limit and the sum of both does not exceed the maximum gross train weight.

It is not a requirement to display a notice of the unladen weight of the trailer or the towing vehicle, unless the towing vehicle is either a motor tractor or a locomotive, as defined in the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986.

......................

That's Constuction and Use regulations for trailers under 3500kg

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/vehicles/vssafety/requirementsfortrailers
So where in law does the caravans 'plate' carry any legal implications?

As I read it, all the law is concerned with is Gross Train Weight and tow limits as defined by the tow car manufacturer.

 

[Lutz]

Gary, you are referring to legal limits what one may tow, but this thread is concerned with the limit governing the maximum permissible weight of the caravan itself when fully laden.

 

[gary]

Lutz, I can only say, if the above statement is headed 'requirements for trailers' then surely the trailer manufactures MTPLM would be mentioned if it had a particular bearing? particularly considering the last paragraph?

I would though repeat my original proviso, that the SWL of axle and tyres is not exceeded of course

 

[emmitdb]

One of the details that the plate must show is the name of the manufacturer, i.e. the source that is responsible for the weight data which also appears on the plate. If one were to obtain a blank plate and add one's own data, then in effect, one would become a manufacturer in one own's right with all responsibility that this entails.

Gary is questioning how a caravan can be overweight if the weight shown on the axle is not exceeded, even though it may be over the plated weight. Easy, the plate is the only recognised 'document' because only it gives 'ex-works' data.

If a caravan is replated by the manufacturer, then the ex-works condition is consequently also revised.

Lutz,

I fully understand what you are saying, however, the placing of the name of the manufacturer on the plate cannot be constued as anything other than exactly what it is. ie the name in big bold letters plastered all over the 'trailer'. There can be nothing illegal in that.

The weights displayed are not a matter of secrecy and cannot be held to be 'copyright'.

On a previous occasion (or occasions to be accurate) It took Lunar themselves three goes to provide me with an accurate replacement plate. The MTPLM was correct but the MIRO was wrong on two occasions and they had the records.

 

[Lutz]

Gary, your interpretation of what the maximum permissible weight of the trailer (or caravan) is, is not covered or mentioned in the excerpt that you provided. It cannot be that one person interprets the maximum permissble weight to be that shown on the axle and another says it's what's stated on the plate. It must be more specifically defined. I can't quote a source, but it has always been my understanding that it's only on the plate what counts, regardless of what is shown on the axle.

The requirements are as follows:

1.3. The manufacturer's statutory plate shall consist either of:

(a) a rectangular sheet of metal

(b) a rectangular self-adhesive label

1.4. Metallic plates shall be fastened with rivets.

1.5. Labels shall be tamper evident, fraud resistant and self destructive in case there is an attempt to remove the label.

.

.

.

2.1. The following information shall be printed indelibly on the manufacturer's statutory plate in the order listed:

(a) the manufacturer's company name;

(b) the whole vehicle type-approval number;

(c) the vehicle identification number;

(d) the technically permissible maximum laden mass;

(e) the technically permissible maximum mass of the combination;

(f) the technically permissible maximum mass on each axle listed in order from

front to rear.

2.2. The height of the characters shall not be less than 4 mm.

.

.

.

3. Specific provisions

3.1. Trailers

3.1.1. In the case of a trailer, the technically permissible maximum static vertical mass on the coupling point shall be mentioned.

 

[Lutz]

One of the details that the plate must show is the name of the manufacturer, i.e. the source that is responsible for the weight data which also appears on the plate. If one were to obtain a blank plate and add one's own data, then in effect, one would become a manufacturer in one own's right with all responsibility that this entails.

Gary is questioning how a caravan can be overweight if the weight shown on the axle is not exceeded, even though it may be over the plated weight. Easy, the plate is the only recognised 'document' because only it gives 'ex-works' data.

If a caravan is replated by the manufacturer, then the ex-works condition is consequently also revised.

Details of the MIRO are not required on the plate and therefore have no legal significance.

 

[gary]

To me that all refer to a vehicle, ie, the towing vehicle, not a trailer, especially considering the last bit refering to nose weight loads?

That's not something particularly mentioned by caravan manufactures, unless they state ALKO/BPW's maximum loads, but, it is always stated by vehicle manufacturers, states it in my log book along with all the other required weights.

 

[Lutz]

Since when is a trailer (or a caravan) not a vehicle? It may not be a motor vehicle but it is still a vehicle.

 

[Lutz]

To me that all refer to a vehicle, ie, the towing vehicle, not a trailer, especially considering the last bit refering to nose weight loads?

That's not something particularly mentioned by caravan manufactures, unless they state ALKO/BPW's maximum loads, but, it is always stated by vehicle manufacturers, states it in my log book along with all the other required weights.

Caravan manufacturers normally accept and publish the chassis manufacturers' (AlKO, BPW, etc.) noseweight limtis as their own too.

 

[gary]

No I disagree, it's not in law a vehicle, it's simply a trailer, this might be where all the confusion is coming from if laws governing vehicles are wrongly assumed to apply to trailers?

 

[gary]

Caravan manufacturers normally accept and publish the chassis manufacturers' (AlKO, BPW, etc.) noseweight limtis as their own too.

In which case, why don't they accept the SWL of the Axle?

 

[Lutz]

"It is not in law a vehicle."

A vehicle is defined as: any conveyance in or by which people or objects are transported, especially one fitted with wheels.

Where does a caravan not fit in with this definition?

You will find all legal requirements covering trailers (and caravans) as subsections of requirements referring to vehicles.