VW Group emissions scandal

[intransient1]

This is a hard one to deal with.

All EA189 engines in VW, Seat, Skoda and Audi fitted in the Euro 5 vehicles need to have the engine software updated to as VW management stated to the TSC to remove the offending "Cheat Mode".
Unfortunately when the update has been applied the changes have caused problems for thousands of owner as the new operating parameters cause components to work harder than they were designed to.

• Increased fuel consumption on comparable journeys,
• Reduced power and driveability, particularly at low revs,
• Increase noise from the engine at idle,
• Where fitted the ‘Start/Stop’ function ceases to work correctly.
• Engine fans running on after you have turned off the engine more frequently.
• In other typical cases the engine warning lights will come on, the car will go in to limp home mode, problems with starting the engine etc
• Extensive damage can occur to various engine components.

It now transpires that VW Group also cheated on some Euro 6 engines further adding to the woes of the consumer.

The government has not taken a tough enough stance on the issue as the affected vehicles failed to meet the emissions standards and still fail to meet them after the "Software Update" has been applied, this has been admitted by VW chief executive here in the UK.

If you own an affected vehicle and are suffering with any of the above issues please report it to the DVSA.
There have already been incidences of vehicle going into "Limp Mode" that have resulted in accidents.

The update was rolled out using the DVSA logo which lead a lot of owners to believe it was a mandatory update, it was voluntary and the logo has been removed following a meeting with the Department for Transport.

 

[otherclive]

Had my 2014 170PS 2.0 tdi done some 6 months ago, and to be honest I’ve not noticed any detrimental effects. Fuel consumption still the same on “standard” journeys. Yes the fans may run after I stop but they did that previously on occasion. I think for the journeys I do I wouldn’t notice changes as they tend not to be short journeys.

If unexpected limp home mode has as you say caused accidents wouldn’t we be expecting DVSA to push for a recall to modify the modification? The limp mode may not be the result of the change. I had a Gen 3 Volvo XC 70 D5 that went into limp mode caused by a DPF sensor failing. That didn’t give any warning. As they say **** happens.

 

[Dodger524]

I had a 2014 VW Passat software upgrade and didn't notice any change in the cars performance.

I've since sold it as it wasn't a very comfortable car and brought one with suspension but that's another matter.

 

[Tukums]

Had my Skoda done January 2017, not noticed any difference solo or towing, Skoda dealer did send a letter out saying if there was any problems within 2 years of the fix they had to be contacted to investigate, only time the fans run on is if I turn the engine off and has not finished it's DPF regeneration.

 

[intransient1]

Not all vehicles get the adverse effects, but the incidence of problems now being reported from around the world has now reached over 40%.
As for the 2 years of "Trust Building Measures" if there was not a problem with the update why would VW be offering to do any post fix repairs free of charge as this does not make commercial sense.
Indeed some UK vehicles have already had 4 replacements EGR valves to date some in as short a time as 3 months and that failure rate is extremely abnormal.
If your vehicle is not affected you are lucky but not everyone is.

 

[Craigyoung]

Our old o9 Toyota went into limp mode a few times , its a scary feeling when it happens , happened to the wife and me ! I took it down a country lane and red lined it in 1st 2nd & 3rd which cleared it but the amount off black that came out was horrible , that was before we had the caravan , when we got the van it never happened after that .

 

[JonnyG]

Not all vehicles get the adverse effects, but the incidence of problems now being reported from around the world has now reached over 40%.
As for the 2 years of "Trust Building Measures" if there was not a problem with the update why would VW be offering to do any post fix repairs free of charge as this does not make commercial sense.
Indeed some UK vehicles have already had 4 replacements EGR valves to date some in as short a time as 3 months and that failure rate is extremely abnormal.
If your vehicle is not affected you are lucky but not everyone is.

40% ? 40% of what? .. is that to say 4 out of every 10 cars that have had the cheat device fix are reporting problems? if so exactly who is stating this 40% figure and does this include figures for those claiming worse mpg and indeed less power than before? as these last 2 were always an obvious side effect with regards the device cheat fix....personally i wouldn't of had the cheat device fix knowing beforehand that performance and economy would be effected..

 

[ProfJohnL]

... why would VW be offering to do any post fix repairs free of charge as this does not make commercial sense...

Thank you Johnny for making your points.

In the absence of detailed fault analysis, the reports Intansient has hinted at are just hearsay, and without corroboration they should not be trusted as being accurate or yet alone definitive.

If any business makes a change to a product owned by a customer, the company doing the work (Even free of charge) has entered into a consumer contract and is legally obliged to cover any damage their materials workmanship, or reprogramming causes under the Consumer Rights Act.

Who is to say the vehicles that have encountered post modification problems, would have been fault free if the mod was not done? Perhaps these vehicles would have developed these faults despite the modifications not becasue of them?

We do not have any verifiable evidence to positively link the faults to the reprogramming, But perhaps VW have taken the view that where there may be an element of possibility (without admitting liability) it is good customer relations to help some of these owners, repairing some of the damage to good will the Emissions-gate scandal caused.

 

[otherclive]

Not all vehicles get the adverse effects, but the incidence of problems now being reported from around the world has now reached over 40%.
As for the 2 years of "Trust Building Measures" if there was not a problem with the update why would VW be offering to do any post fix repairs free of charge as this does not make commercial sense.
Indeed some UK vehicles have already had 4 replacements EGR valves to date some in as short a time as 3 months and that failure rate is extremely abnormal.
If your vehicle is not affected you are lucky but not everyone is.

40% ? 40% of what? .. is that to say 4 out of every 10 cars that have had the cheat device fix are reporting problems? if so exactly who is stating this 40% figure and does this include figures for those claiming worse mpg and indeed less power than before? as these last 2 were always an obvious side effect with regards the device cheat fix....personally i wouldn't of had the cheat device fix knowing beforehand that performance and economy would be effected..

But at least two on this thread have not identified any difference on mpg or power after the fix, not any other detrimental effects. That’s not to say that in the future there may be negative effects but it will be sometime before there’s enough evidence to say they’re systemic. Power is a difficult one and is subjective as if you have a powerful engine in a relatively light car it’s not easy to say one way or another if you have lost power, unless there’s a significant loss of power. Either lab tests or repeated two way 0-60 mph tests would show it.
If the fix led to such bad outcomes I’d expect to see VAG residual values suffer but that’s not the case. Although because of VAG and others defeat software and the general down on diesel there’s no doubt that general diesel residuals have been impacted. Could be a good time to buy a diesel!!

 

[JonnyG]

again.. 40%, of what? if a numerical value is going to be used it has to be used in a context and frankly however it is used surely only VAG could say exactly what percentage of cars had this problem as they would be the only people who could confirm how many cars have had the cheat device fix and frankly i cannot believe they let out such figures anyway so exactly who is coming up with this preposterous figure?

 

[intransient1]

The 40% figure is from a Belgian motoring organisation as they are following this more closely than most countries.
Before anyone asks why doesn't the AA take up the problem they have a contract with VW to perform the update, so they have a vested interested as they get paid.
I didn't have mine upgraded as I found out early enough that it caused problems and was voluntary despite the letter from VW Stating the work was required and using the DVSA logo to make it look more official.
VW admit that to date just short of 17,000 customers vehicles have required post fix repairs.
This is not a problem that will go away as many owners have offloaded their broken post fix vehicles in part exchange and these vehicles will be purchased by customers who are unaware of the problems.
Even if you VW still runs fine you have already suffered a loss financially as the value of used diesel vehicles have fallen below that of petrol vehicles.

 

[JonnyG]

The 40% figure is from a Belgian motoring organisation as they are following this more closely than most countries.
Before anyone asks why doesn't the AA take up the problem they have a contract with VW to perform the update, so they have a vested interested as they get paid.
I didn't have mine upgraded as I found out early enough that it caused problems and was voluntary despite the letter from VW Stating the work was required and using the DVSA logo to make it look more official.
VW admit that to date just short of 17,000 customers vehicles have required post fix repairs.
This is not a problem that will go away as many owners have offloaded their broken post fix vehicles in part exchange and these vehicles will be purchased by customers who are unaware of the problems.
Even if you VW still runs fine you have already suffered a loss financially as the value of used diesel vehicles have fallen below that of petrol vehicles.

3 million cars updated . vw claims 17000 have needed extra repairs..umm thats thats just over half a percent!! 40% would be 1.3 million!!! whilst i'm sure some are having issues as is normal the figures dont stack up .

 

[intransient1]

There are only 1.2 million affected vehicles in the UK (VW figures).
So to date we have been very lucky in the UK.

 

[otherclive]

There are only 1.2 million affected vehicles in the UK (VW figures).
So to date we have been very lucky in the UK.

I can’t see how luck comes into something like a technical issue. Why would U.K. cars be so much less susceptible than Europe’s cars. It could only be down to things like driving habits, fuel, servicing, efficiency if the garage doing the work. But all of these combined would not make such a difference in the figures.

 

[intransient1]

The problem lies in the fact that a third of UK vehicles have not had the update.
Many taxi drivers learned early on that there were problems, some vehicles have been scrapped following RTA,s.
Then there is also the fact that many people just accept the change as being part and parcel of the update.
The other factor is government procured vehicles are not getting updated, this is a question we have put to the powers that be.
I have also checked disabled WAV vehicles many of which have also not been updated.
If as VW would like us to believe there is no problem German Police forces such as Bavaria would not be taking the stance that they won't be updating their vehicles.
In many respects we are lucky in the UK the update is not a statuary requirement as it is in many European countries.
The second hand diesel car market has been reported to have almost collapsed following the VW scandal and like this country sales of new diesels has fallen despite the fact that most new diesels are now actually cleaner than the equivalent petrol engines.
The internet is full of stories about the issue, it has also been on Watchdog and channel 4.
The only reason it has not had the publicity the rest of the world has given it is because the government has not taken a tougher stance on the issue due to the policy of promoting diesel as a better choice due to it producing less CO2.

 

[Raywood]

I am not sure the VW scandal has had any great affect on diesel prices dropping as all makes are affected by the drop. To me it is the messages being sent out by the government and local authorities that make their future look uncertain that is the major problem.

 

[otherclive]

I am not sure the VW scandal has had any great affect on diesel prices dropping as all makes are affected by the drop. To me it is the messages being sent out by the government and local authorities that make their future look uncertain that is the major problem.

Ray
I agree with you, but I certainly think that the VW debacle, and others too, gave politicians, and the media all of the ammo they required to exacerbate the issue. The motor industry didn't do themselves any favours by not really defending the modern diesel (Eu6 and beyond). I think the governments recent tax increases on the newest and cleanest diesels was a token as they were afraid to hit the drivers of older cars. By hitting the newest their aim must have been to drive down sales so that in 10 years time their r will be fewer "dirty" diesels in circulation given that in 2017-18 fewer have been bought.

 

[DrZhivago]

3 million cars updated . vw claims 17000 have needed extra repairs..umm thats thats just over half a percent!! ..... the figures dont stack up .

The number of people complaining (and hence going for repairs in this case) is always far less than the number that should complain. Never underestimate the stiffness of a stiff upper lip.

 

[JonnyG]

3 million cars updated . vw claims 17000 have needed extra repairs..umm thats thats just over half a percent!! ..... the figures dont stack up .

The number of people complaining (and hence going for repairs in this case) is always far less than the number that should complain. Never underestimate the stiffness of a stiff upper lip.

true except the figures i gave are official ,now i fully understand not everyone has complained who can but less than 1 percent have and somebody is claiming 40% thats a huge huge discrepancy ,also just because somebody complains does not make it a fact especially as these type of events brings every fruitcake out .engine management lights on modern cars come on for thousands of reason even a partial flattened battery will trigger the EML. .so excuse my er contemptuous approach to the 40% remark and a quick scout of the internet including google France Germany Italy oh and Belgium certainly does not back up the ridiculous claim of 40% .mind you i have meet several nay 10s of people who complain that they've seen beggers ,begging in the street then 10 mins later they've seen them get in a rolls or Bentley to drive home!! frankly thats more likely than that silly figure of 40% being quoted concerning the VW group ...

 

[intransient1]

Too true.

 

[intransient1]

This is the report.

• Home page

• Auto & Bike: Cars

• #Dieselgate: problems for 45% of cars after the update of the software rigger
NEWS
#Dieselgate: problems for 45% of cars after the update of the software rigger

January 19, 2018
67% of the Belgian owners of a VW Group vehicle equipped with this software have made their update. But among them, 4 out of 10 later noted changes in the behavior of their car or, worse, have experienced breakdowns.
This is reflected in our major survey conducted jointly with our sister organizations in Spain, Italy and Portugal.Distinctive figures when we know that D'Ieteren claims to have received a negative feedback after updating the software in only 1% of cases.

% of owners who noticed changes after updating the software
The main problems encountered
The most common complaint is about increasing fuel consumption.At this level, the Audi A4 seems the most affected.
Then comes the loss of power.And this time, Seat appears as the worst student with 72% of complaints among respondents.More than half of the VW Golf and two-thirds of the Polo cars would also offer less punch under the hood.
Other complaints relate to mechanical problems or the on-board computer.
Most of these problems were detected within one month of the software update.

Types of changes reported by owners (multiple answers possible)
Back to the garage
Curiously, if 45% of drivers notice a negative impact on their car, "only" 13% of vehicles have already returned to the garage for a repair.
For these vehicles, the most common problem (1 of 3) is the EGR valve that regulates the emission of nitrogen dioxide.In other cases, the fuel injection or particulate filter is adjusted.
The VW Jetta (27%), Seat Ibiza (21%) and VW Passat CC (21%) models are the most returned to the garage for repair.Also affected are 18% of surveyed golf owners and 16% of owners of an Audi A3.
In Belgium, once the repair was done by the mechanics, 23% of them recognized that the problem was related to the update of the software.Nevertheless, 78% of homeowners had to pay, in whole or in part, for the repair.The average cost of this repair amounted to no less than 859 euros!

% of owners who had a repair made after the software correction
Together in the hope of compensation
We demand that the VW Group compensate the thousands of Belgian owners abused for years, as it did in the United States.To this end, in 2016 we launched a collective action against the VW Group and D'Ieteren.
Last December, the judge concluded that this action was admissible and that our organization could represent all the consumers wronged (application of the principle of opt-out).If the car manufacturer and the Belgian importer do not appeal, then start a negotiation phase between the two parties.
Are you an injured owner?

 

[ProfJohnL]

The final paragraph sets out the background to the whole article, and sadly its a pressure group who are trying raise support to have an action taken against VW.

The percentages given only relate to vehicle that have had teh modification and that have subsequently suffers some form of issue. It is an unsubstantiated suggestion that the subsequent issue was caused by the modifcation

I strongly suspect they do not have verifiable evidence for the claim of 40% of modified vehicle are affected becasue of teh modification. As I pointed out earlier, it is highly likely that the cars may have suffered the same issues even if they had not had the modification carried out.

This is not to say VW don't have a case to answer, but I wold be very surprised if all the issues quoted in the article are directly attributable to the modification.

 

[Woodentop]

Note that most of the complaints appear to be in cars with the 1.6 engine which had to have mechanical changes in addition to software.
The EA189 2L engine used in many of the larger cars - Passat, Touran, Tiguan, etc - from what I hear is not affected anything like as much.
My current Passat and its predecessor (which my daughter now has) have both been totally reliable post update, in fact my car runs more quietly, accelerates better, and has improved fuel consumption and this is not the first comment of this type that I have heard.
Pity about the A4 (assumed 2L?)

 

[JonnyG]

to quote ...the most common complaint was mpg and less power" i believe i mentioned right at the start if the so called 40% included this as a problem or breakdown. so let stick to actual facts this isnt something that can be fixed nor is anything broken .the fact of the matter whatever the cheat device was of course it would effect power and mpg an engine runs more efficiently when pumping out lots of NOX which in my laymens mind would suggest the EGR valve played a large par ie how often and how open it would work to would effect NOX levels and therefore mpg and power .. when deleting the cheat device so lowering the NOX levels mpg and performance would be effected although not by much .. this is pretty straightforward laymans stuff .and of course people have a right to complain about less power and less mpg,but it is not something that is broken as is suggested and as this seems to play a large part in the amount of complaints, something that was known and reported 3 years back it puts a totally different perspective on the whole topic which suggest massive amounts of mechanical breakdowns..Indeed i'd go further any of those cars that have done over 70000 plus and have egr failure are lucky if VW show good will of course these egr valves will now be having to deal with much more NOX and soot than they used to but are wear parts and go regardless depending on car usage anywhere from 50000 on wards .As the prof states VW have a lot to answer but that 40 % figure is laughable although it makes a good headliner and scares people.

 

[otherclive]

Note that most of the complaints appear to be in cars with the 1.6 engine which had to have mechanical changes in addition to software.
The EA189 2L engine used in many of the larger cars - Passat, Touran, Tiguan, etc - from what I hear is not affected anything like as much.
My current Passat and its predecessor (which my daughter now has) have both been totally reliable post update, in fact my car runs more quietly, accelerates better, and has improved fuel consumption and this is not the first comment of this type that I have heard.
Pity about the A4 (assumed 2L?)

Any ideas as to why the 2.0 Audi A4 should be affected more than the A6 or A5 and any other 2.0 VAG car? Thought that the engines were pretty common across the companies.