When to indicate?

[otherclive]

What I found on autoroutes is that although the French drivers come zipping down the slip road
( invariably short and curved) they do seem more aware of what’s in lane 1 of the autoroute and what the priority should be. Not always the case in this country where some joining traffic will cut straight in to lane 1 then rapidly into 2 and 3 as required.

 

[Sam Vimes]

So, what do you think of cars with Dynamic Indicators - those that have a moving strip of light?

 

[RogerL]

Dual carriageways yes, but motorways are constructed to very strict standards. (French motorway slip roads however can be VERY short with VERY sharp bends on them.

The high standard for UK motorways is very strict - BUT - exceptions are allowed, and do occur, where the terrain dictates - modern high quality dual carriageways are normally built to similar high standards but again exceptions exist where the terrain dictates.

It's unwise to assume that ALL slip roads can be used without reducing speed on the main carriageway.

 

[otherclive]

So, what do you think of cars with Dynamic Indicators - those that have a moving strip of light?

Quite a good idea, very noticeable. Of recent too many cars seem to have small rear indicators nested near the rear and brake lights which make them difficult to see in bright light conditions even though they are led. Even some VWs were bad. Passats had a round cluster at the rear and again in certain lighting conditions one light morphed into another. I’m a fan of separating indicator and brake lights which seems increasingly rare these days, so if dynamic indicators improve visibility then they get my vote.

 

[RogerL]

So, what do you think of cars with Dynamic Indicators - those that have a moving strip of light?

Way better that the stupidly tiny indicators on some modern Peugeot/Citroen models.

 

[Buckman]

On TV they have programs Highway Patrol, Highway Cops, Motorway Patrol and the latest one is Ch5 "Motorway: Hell on the Highway". Admittedly the first three focus on Australia and New Zealand, but we find them interesting and sometimes amusing. The latter Hell on the Highway focuses more on British highways and motorways and is on Ch5 at 8pm on Fridays.

Totally unbelievable what some people do on the highways never mind the motorways. Sheer stupidity. Watching those idiots on the highways etc makes buying a dashcam a priority!

Another thing I noticed in in those countries, it seems any lane can be used whether driing fast or slow unlike here where the inside lane is regarded as the slwo lane, middle lane for overtaking and outside lane as the speed lane.

 

[Buckman]

Quite a good idea, very noticeable. Of recent too many cars seem to have small rear indicators nested near the rear and brake lights which make them difficult to see in bright light conditions even though they are led. Even some VWs were bad. Passats had a round cluster at the rear and again in certain lighting conditions one light morphed into another. I’m a fan of separating indicator and brake lights which seems increasingly rare these days, so if dynamic indicators improve visibility then they get my vote.

Yes we have noticed that also especially when it is the afternoon sun behind you.

I recall going over that bridge that collapsed in Genoa Italy about a week before it fell down, I left E27 via the slip road to join the A7 , the slip road onto the new one was about 60m long and there was a fuel tanker in lane one! Much enthusiastic application of the brakes on my part. See below! (The truck is at the end of the slip!!) The picture is from Google earth not my dashcam

One thing that we noticed on the continent is that cars like to tuck in behind the caravan and seeing them can be difficult as they are that close. Now I tend to look for a shadow behind me when possible.

 

[GaryB]

So, what do you think of cars with Dynamic Indicators - those that have a moving strip of light?

Like others, I think they’re a lot more visible/obvious, my Volvo has them on the rear, I only discovered them when checking the caravan lights! I also have an old American car that has the US style indicators where the brake light flashes, I’ve had a few people tell me at traffic lights that my lights are faulty so at least they notice them! Wiring the tow bar was a challenge though, I had to take the brake light feed from the switch on the pedal and the indicator feed from the column switch loom.

 

[Paullus1959]

I was a Police Driver Trainer for over twenty years. Roadcraft, The Police Drivers Handbook was our Bible along with The Highway Code. These two publications form the basis of all training delivered to the emergency services, the military and by organisations such as the A.I.M. and R.O.S.P.A.
When approaching an exit with countdown markers, 300 yards on a motorway often less on dual-carriageways, the indicator was operated at the first marker post and remained on until the point of no return to the main carriageway.
It was always the rule that it was one indication for one manoeuvre. So, if you were exiting a roundabout for instance with a left indicator on and your plan was to turn left again shortly after the exit, the indicator was cancelled and then operated again for the next manoeuvre.
Also, it was taught to put a turn signal on and let it flash two or three times where possible before applying the brakes. How many times do you see the brake lights come on on the car in front followed by an indication almost as an afterthought. This habit can lead to confusion as the intentions of the driver in front are not immediately clear. Indicating prior to braking also reduces the risk of the indicator being masked by the brake lights, especially where all the lights are installed in the same light unit. I used to have an Audi A3 which had ridiculously small indicators and there are new cars out there with poorly designed indicators.
A more advanced technique applied to the use of indicators was only to give an indication when, it can be of benefit to other road users including, cyclists and pedestrians. This enhances overall observations and awareness of what is going on around you. The habit of simply indicating without determining if it was beneficial or not, was often very hard to break in many drivers.

 

[Dustydog]

Thank you Paullus for an excellent answer. I started this thread mainly because of two incidents I saw on Friday that could have lead to serious accidents. Both were indicating as an after thought having made their manoeuvres.
Many years ago I took the IAM test and then further qualified as an Observer. It is just a shame more people don’t read Roadcraft. In fact I believe the standard of the current driving test should be more akin to Roadcraft standards.

 

[Paullus1959]

Thank you Paullus for an excellent answer. I started this thread mainly because of two incidents I saw on Friday that could have lead to serious accidents. Both were indicating as an after thought having made their manoeuvres.
Many years ago I took the IAM test and then further qualified as an Observer. It is just a shame more people don’t read Roadcraft. In fact I believe the standard of the current driving test should be more akin to Roadcraft standards.

Thank you for the compliment.
Now if you want a laugh and an insight into partly why driving standards are falling on our roads, take a look at the hazard perception test that new drivers have to complete. It's a joke and many of my colleagues and I failed it several times at first due to anticipating hazards as they started to develop. The knack to passing said test is not to do anything until you actually have to alter speed or direction to avoid the hazard. So, what is being advocated is reactive driving, not defensive or proactive driving even before a learner gets behind the wheel. I also believe that the standard of instruction is falling, judging by the antics of some driving instructors I have seen. It's always been said that you learn to drive after you've passed your test and it seems that many instructors, not all I might add, simply do enough to get their learners through the driving test

 

[Raywood]

I tend to indicate about the second marker which feels about right to me. I do take my foot of the accelerator on many before the slip road particularly as there are a few around here with very sharp bends which otherwise need some heavy braking. Before signalling or reducing speed I do check the rear though.
For joining I do try to et the car up to the motorway speed to make it easier to merge.

 

[Mr Plodd]

Buckman
Ref French cars getting very close before swooping out, I spend a fair time towing in France so I have invested in a rear view (not reversing) camera. The monitor clips over pthe cars rear view mirror I wouldn't want to be without it now!

Paullus
Very succinctly explained posts. All of my shift failed the hazard perception test for exactly the reasons you gave It resulted in an "interesting" discussion with the guy from the test centre who had bought the equipment in to demonstrate it. My pal failed his ADI, driving in 3rd at 30mph "Should have been in 4th, think of the environment" was the reason given. No thought to better car control of course.

Shame not everyone can benefit from police driving training. The "alternative course" instruction has saved me from other drivers "errors" a couple of times over the years. and I agree 100% with your comments on some driving instructors.

We now just need to persuade people to use their parking brakes when stationary in traffic or at signals, rather than sitting with their foot on the brake especially when its dark and raining!

 

[RogerL]

Shame not everyone can benefit from police driving training.

Everyone can - the Institute of Advanced Motorists training is based on police training (but without the pursuit sections!) - many larger companies will run such courses for their employee drivers but any private individual can join a local IAM group and do it that way.

Some insurers offer a discount for IAM qualification.

 

[Mr Plodd]

Yes I am well aware of the IAM
I am talking about 5 WEEKS of intensive training to get to the police "standard" level, then (if you get a high enough score in your standard test) another 4 weeks about a year later to get your advanced qualification. Test at the end of that is simply a pass or fail!

Fail it and you never get another chance, the theory being if you cannot pass the test after weeks of intensive training then the inate ability clearly isnt there.so you are not good enough to be a class one police driver. (Basically a single crewed traffic cop) . Then every few years a 2 week refresher, again with a pass or fail test at the end.
That's a bit more than a few hours with an IAM observer (Many of who are Class 1 police drivers)

BUT...........

I would would most certainly urge everyone to do an IAM course and test, I guarantee you will be a much better driver at the end of it.

Bizarre as it is I could never get any insurance discount because I didn't have an IAM certificate

 

[Buckman]

Buckman
Ref French cars getting very close before swooping out, I spend a fair time towing in France so I have invested in a rear view (not reversing) camera. The monitor clips over pthe cars rear view mirror I wouldn't want to be without it now!

I have looked at a rear view camera where the monitor clips over the rear view mirror for the caravan as sometimes in the UK you get the local idiot on the motorway who wants to see if they can use your rear bathroom otherwsie why would they be travelling so close?

I have seen the Falcon version, but at the moment it seems bit on the expensive side so still looking. How did you mount your camera i.e. glue and how did you connect it into a 12v supply? We do have a high level brake light as definitely do not want to drill into the rear panel. Thanks for any advice.

 

[Mr Plodd]

Bought mine from parking cameras.com paid about £230 I think for the wireless version.

It's mounted high up (no high level brakevlight) The bracket is secured with Sikaflex but I did have to drill the rear panel to feed the cables through (There is no other option other than to mount it very low down, which negates he usefullness).

The kit came with a grommet for the cable and I bought the correct size hole saw (18.5mm) It has been fitted for over 12 months and not a drop of water has made it through. (I have been watching very carefully)

Putting a hole in a caravan panel is not a difficult job providing the correct size hole is made using a new hole saw bit (they cost about a fiver) and care is taken not to force it. The outer skin is only about 1.5mm thick anyway. The manufacturers and dealers do it all the time!

I ran a two core cable from the fuse block just inside the front of the caravan where the multi core cable is connected. That way its only live when connected to the car (no chance of a flat battery)

The cable then drops down through the floor, ran it back to under the rear wardrobe, up through the wardrobe and high level locker in stick on plastic trunking.

The receiver is hidden up under the cars dash and is fed from an ignition live circuit.
It's not a difficult job you just need to take your time and work methodically.

 

[otherclive]

One of our cars allows the rear view camera to be run when gonng forwards and the screen will split into two halves for rear view and map, or review and media etc.

 

[Buckman]

One of our cars allows the rear view camera to be run when going forwards and the screen will split into two halves for rear view and map, or review and media etc.

However you probably still cannot see behind if towing a caravan?

The receiver is hidden up under the cars dash and is fed from an ignition live circuit.
It's not a difficult job you just need to take your time and work methodically.

Thanks for the informative post. Bit of a blonde moment as forgot that the receiver would require a power source so did not even think of that aspect. We have the dashcam mounted behind the mirror and out of driver's eyesight so unsure about another power feed into that area?

The fuse box for the Jeep is in the engine compartment so no way can I access it for 12v power and very unsure about cabling behind dashboard etc. Now seems the caravan is the easy part? If I go ahead I will probably have to have it installed by a professional?

 

[otherclive]

However you probably still cannot see behind if towing a caravan?



Thanks for the informative post. Bit of a blonde moment as forgot that the receiver would require a power source so did not even think of that aspect. We have the dashcam mounted behind the mirror and out of driver's eyesight so unsure about another power feed into that area?

The fuse box for the Jeep is in the engine compartment so no way can I access it for 12v power and very unsure about cabling behind dashboard etc. Now seems the caravan is the easy part? If I go ahead I will probably have to have it installed by a professional?

In my post signature it says "no longer tugging" so with the camera set at mid boot height it wouldn't be any use for towing duties.

 

[Dustydog]

I’m surprised Mr Plodd. Intensive professional police courses are of course the absolute best. So failing that shouldn’t be a barrier to passing the IAM test . When I was Observing we usually took 10 sessions of a couple of hours including a good 30 minute debrief. A running spoken commentary was mandatory, it demonstrated to the Observer just how ahead far the spatial awareness of the candidate was being viewed.

 

[Mr Plodd]

I did extol the virtues of the IAM at the end of my post!

 

[Gozza2]

Pretty sure nowadays an emergency services driver qualification gets you in to the IAM without taking the IAM test. I was an IAM member years ago, when Mrs Gozza was made redundant we had to cut back on memberships that we didn't get any actual benefit from, so I let it lapse - the insurance company I was with at the time didn't give an IAM discount. I'm with SAGA now so I'll check if they do, and consider rejoining. I always wanted to do the Advanced Towing Test but at the time I was a member there weren't any examiners for it round my way.

Back to the original question, it depends on travel speed and what traffic around me is doing, but generally between the 300 and 200 yard boards.

 

[Jcloughie]

My brother drove a fire engine. But managed to get a ban for speeding. This was temporary and issued by the fire department. Perhaps his boss had it in for him!

John

 

[ProfJohnL]

Likewise those who indicate and pull out to overtake when there is NO following traffic, who benefits from the signal?

I appreciate this is going back a few posts,

There can be a benefit to the driver who is about to be overtaken. If the signal is made a reasonable time before the manoeuvre is started, the driver in front might see the signal and be prepared just incase the overtake does not go to plan.