Where the electricity comes from.

[Jcloughie]

I do not want to pay for a new Heat pump , heating system for my house, or an Electric car, using up say 30% of my retirement money, when in maybe 10 years time, heat pumps will be more efficient and I may no longer be able to tow a caravan or even drive. By that time I will be 80 years old, and then hopefully I will sell my large house and down size to a nice two bedroom house with a garage/ shed near to a nice pub. That has already been modified by somebody else.

I have never investigated the cost effectiveness of heat pumps, ground or air. But some years ago I was connected to the construction of a small estate of retirement homes. Each had its own pump the size of a large chest freezer on end. I don’t know how well they worked when occupied. But these were built using the best floor, wall, window and roof insulation available. Even unfinished, you could feel how good this was.

My problem, and that of millions of others, is that insulating existing properties up to the standard that can be built into a new place is impossible without a rebuild.

Heating those retirement homes would have been easy.


John

 

[otherclive]

I do not want to pay for a new Heat pump , heating system for my house, or an Electric car, using up say 30% of my retirement money, when in maybe 10 years time, heat pumps will be more efficient and I may no longer be able to tow a caravan or even drive. By that time I will be 80 years old, and then hopefully I will sell my large house and down size to a nice two bedroom house with a garage/ shed near to a nice pub. That has already been modified by somebody else.

I really don’t think that in ten years you will be forced to buy a heat pump system or electric car against your will. Are you planning to keep the Santa Fe until 2032? Buy a nice low miles pre owned diesel when it suits you. Even if there is a total ban on new gas boilers by 2025 I’d just install a new gas boiler (£1-2k) prior to the ban coming in, and expect at least 10 more years of useful life. Gas isn’t just going to disappear overnight.

 

[otherclive]

My Nextdoor neighbour fits wood burners. He fitted one in his own house. But he gets his wood free. Traveling round with his van and trailer he blags logs and trees which he regularly brings home. He puts a massive amount of work into sawing it up and storing it. Having built about 10 cubic metres of covered and vented storage.

A lot of work. Not sure it would be viable if he had to buy logs.

John

My son has a good sized area of mature woodland which is surrounded by more woodland on all sides. When I was over there last week the Hobbits were all out with their chainsaws collecting wood from fallen trees and limbs. But it’s hard work as there’s no access for vehicles and quite steep hillsides. Then as you say there's the cutting to size and storing for seasoning, and most British houses aren’t designed or well insulated enough to benefit from a wood burner heating source as the prime heater.

I look forward to the day when I may turn the clock back to 1974 when I had full electric heating installed in our first house in Plymouth. It wasnt heat store, each radiator had a thermostat and timer control. Sheer luxury and no pumps, pipes leaks etc. Mind you the rads did get very hot but the kids soon learnt not to use them to get up onto their feet. 🤣

 

[Buckman]

There are plenty of people who are looking for excuses not to change the way we use and waste energy, If more people would take a lead in trying to make these resources last longer for the future, the better it will get.

If you don't mind me asking, do you have heat pump heating i.e. ground or air? Also if you have a tumble drier does it have a heat pump? Real life scenarios are always best and not theories.

 

[Buckman]

Isn't the big issue with air-source heat pumps that they're not very effective in cold ambient temperatures - just when you need most output.

That is correct as we have found out of the past 10 winters. When the temperature is below about 3C the machine runs continuously and actually ends up being one big frozen block although it is still working.
At low temperatures it really struggles and our electric bill shoots up. We use the gas fire in the living room to boost up the temperature to above 20C. However the machine has to continue to run so that it can defrost itself so you still lose as it is using even more electric!

 

[ProfJohnL]

If you don't mind me asking, do you have heat pump heating i.e. ground or air? Also if you have a tumble drier does it have a heat pump? Real life scenarios are always best and not theories.

What I own or use is not for public discussion unless I choose to disclose it. Suffice to say I have wide experience or professional interests and qualifications on the topics I choose to discuss.

 

[ProfJohnL]

That is correct as we have found out of the past 10 winters. When the temperature is below about 3C the machine runs continuously and actually ends up being one big frozen block although it is still working.
At low temperatures it really struggles and our electric bill shoots up. We use the gas fire in the living room to boost up the temperature to above 20C. However the machine has to continue to run so that it can defrost itself so you still lose as it is using even more electric!

You have previously reported how you think your heating system is ineffective in cold conditions, and it certainly reads as though it was not correctly specified for your needs. I also can't disagree that as the temperature falls, your running costs increase. That is a natural occurrence, becasue you do need more energy for heating, which means the heat pump has to work harder or for longer, both of which will use more electricity to run the system, but provided it has been set up correctly, you should still be getting more heat transferred into your property than the electric energy used to obtain it.

The cost increases may seem steep, but you also have to take into account the lower than average running costs during warmer weather, where you are most likely making a significant saving compared to other heating solutions. Look at your annual running costs, and compare them to similar usage without heat pumps.

 

[otherclive]

You have previously reported how you think your heating system is ineffective in cold conditions, and it certainly reads as though it was not correctly specified for your needs. I also can't disagree that as the temperature falls, your running costs increase. That is a natural occurrence, becasue you do need more energy for heating, which means the heat pump has to work harder or for longer, both of which will use more electricity to run the system, but provided it has been set up correctly, you should still be getting more heat transferred into your property than the electric energy used to obtain it.

The cost increases may seem steep, but you also have to take into account the lower than average running costs during warmer weather, where you are most likely making a significant saving compared to other heating solutions. Look at your annual running costs, and compare them to similar usage without heat pumps.

From 20 Jan to 19 Feb our gas charge was £54.73 and electric was£31.59 and we pay £80 pm direct debit. So an air source heat pump would have to go some to save us money over the outlay, plus there would still be energy for cooking, lighting, fridge, IT etc.

 

[Buckman]

What I own or use is not for public discussion unless I choose to disclose it. Suffice to say I have wide experience or professional interests and qualifications on the topics I choose to discuss.

That may be true regardijg your experience and I am not denying that, however whether or not you have any of the machines is really immaterial as real life experience is more important than theorteical test or tests done over a few months rather than years. We are experiencing real life issues and we are not alone!

 

[Dustydog]

That may be true regardijg your experience and I am not denying that, however whether or not you have any of the machines is really immaterial as real life experience is more important than theorteical test or tests done over a few months rather than years. We are experiencing real life issues and we are not alone!

Last year SIL rented a massive Barn conversion in Norfolk. The Heat pump kit was so large and noisy it ŵas housed in a brick outbuilding. BIL feels the cold. It took 24 hours to raise the temperature 1 deg to 19 degs C. Rubbish. Further the hot water never went above 50 degs C.
When you look at the capital cost of a minimum of £18k for the pump installation and £1 k for my grade A +++ Vaillant gas boiler is someone pulling my chain. Please boys . We are in a massive lifetime crisis where we may all be toast. Being green going forward needs to be put on the back burner for at least a decade😉😉

 

[otherclive]

Last year SIL rented a massive Barn conversion in Norfolk. The Heat pump kit was so large and noisy it ŵas housed in a brick outbuilding. BIL feels the cold. It took 24 hours to raise the temperature 1 deg to 19 degs C. Rubbish. Further the hot water never went above 50 degs C.
When you look at the capital cost of a minimum of £18k for the pump installation and £1 k for my grade A +++ Vaillant gas boiler is someone pulling my chain. Please boys . We are in a massive lifetime crisis where we may all be toast. Being green going forward needs to be put on the back burner for at least a decade😉😉

I don’t understand your last two sentences. How does lifetime crisis and being green conflict?

 

[Buckman]

I don’t understand your last two sentences. How does lifetime crisis and being green conflict?

I read it that if Russia starts playing with nukes, what is the point in being green as that will be the least of our concerns as we all remember Chernobyl. Not sure if that is correct but makes sense.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I don't know of any person who is in touch with reality who has claimed that going green is a no cost option, whenever there has been a significant shift in energy technology there has been a cost barrier, and you do have to take the longer term view about break even points.

That does not necessarily mean that green alternatives will become as cheap as present day methods, but its more likely that green systems will reduce cost as take up increases, but at the same time the historic solutions become more expensive or may even completely be lost.

But you also need to look at the do nothing option. By prevaricating now delays the new technologies from maturing, and becasue traditional sources of energy are finite, and usage at todays rates or greater will render them untenable sooner, not to mention the accelerating damage to the environment by continuing to use poluting methods.

We can't all change instantly, that would be impossible, but I do think we should all be planning how to move towards a greener energy provision, and how to accelerate energy conservation.

 

[Dustydog]

I don’t understand your last two sentences. How does lifetime crisis and being green conflict?

Err , you may not be here to worry. Look to the East😉
https://m.facebook.com/photo.php?fb...d=647817893&set=a.10150374813992894&source=48

 

[otherclive]

Err , you may not be here to worry. Look to the East😉
https://m.facebook.com/photo.php?fb...d=647817893&set=a.10150374813992894&source=48

Thanks but the link doesn’t open so I’m none the wiser.

 

[Tobes]

I read it that if Russia starts playing with nukes, what is the point in being green as that will be the least of our concerns as we all remember Chernobyl. Not sure if that is correct but makes sense.

On the contrary - we should be working to make the world a better place for our children and grand children irrespective of what Putin may or may not do.

 

[Dustydog]

On the contrary - we should be working to make the world a better place for our children and grand children irrespective of what Putin may or may not do.

Try this Clive. Not too good a map but one you will appreciate where the nukes will hit. You and I will be toast😥😥

 

[Tobes]

Try this Clive. Not too good a map but one you will appreciate where the nukes will hit. You and I will be toast😥😥

You can’t do anything about it so why worry. Just carry on as if nothing will come if it. I.e. plan for the future that you want to live in.

 

[otherclive]

Try this Clive. Not too good a map but one you will appreciate where the nukes will hit. You and I will be toast😥😥

Living some 3 miles from the MoD communications complex which still uses the WW2 underground complex I’ve long held that view. But honestly it didn’t take a rocket scientist to draw that map. Or did it ?

 

[Dustydog]

Living some 3 miles from the MoD communications complex which still uses the WE2 underground complex I’ve long held that view. But honestly it didn’t take a rocket scientist to draw that map. Or did it ?

I think it came from our own Military😁

 

[ProfJohnL]

Due the human disposition toward greed, and power, there will always be some event occurring or predicted to occur somewhere in the world that "might" affect us and so that's taken as a reason to do less than we should to minimise out impact on the environment.

In this case climate change is occuring, witnessed by a massive increase in 100 year weather events occurring almost every year now in all parts of the globe. Whilst there is a long history and an apparent cycle to significant changes to the earth's climate systems, there is a very strong body of evidence that shows the rate of change we are experiencing over the last three centuries is far more rapid and is still increasing than in previous cycles. This has a very strong correlation to the Human races activities that has seen us burning vast amounts of fossil fuels and raising the average CO2 level in the atmosphere. Whilst there are plenty of natural sources of CO2 and other greenhouse gasses in the world, we have added to that, and changed the locations of where CO2 is released which is affecting weather patterns and its severity.

This is happening now. and regardless of the conflict unfolding in the East, the weather and climate change is an on going issue which if the "nukes" don't get us the weather will and be far more devastating for the worlds entire population in the not to distant future.

Just to-day a report was released by part of the scientific community that concludes we have already gone beyond the point of being able to moderate and possibly control climate change, but if we act now, we can at least reduce the or possibly prevent the worst possible outcomes, but we are destined to have to live with a significant shift in the climatic conditions.

I'm not trying to belittle the issues in the Ukraine, nor am I discussing the reasons for them, but we have to begin to fully appreciate that teh generations alive to-day have the duty and teh power to act to reduce the effects of human poor usage of fuel today and through past history.

 

[Tobes]

Due the human disposition toward greed, and power, there will always be some event occurring or predicted to occur somewhere in the world that "might" affect us and so that's taken as a reason to do less than we should to minimise out impact on the environment.

In this case climate change is occuring, witnessed by a massive increase in 100 year weather events occurring almost every year now in all parts of the globe. Whilst there is a long history and an apparent cycle to significant changes to the earth's climate systems, there is a very strong body of evidence that shows the rate of change we are experiencing over the last three centuries is far more rapid and is still increasing than in previous cycles. This has a very strong correlation to the Human races activities that has seen us burning vast amounts of fossil fuels and raising the average CO2 level in the atmosphere. Whilst there are plenty of natural sources of CO2 and other greenhouse gasses in the world, we have added to that, and changed the locations of where CO2 is released which is affecting weather patterns and its severity.

This is happening now. and regardless of the conflict unfolding in the East, the weather and climate change is an on going issue which if the "nukes" don't get us the weather will and be far more devastating for the worlds entire population in the not to distant future.

Just to-day a report was released by part of the scientific community that concludes we have already gone beyond the point of being able to moderate and possibly control climate change, but if we act now, we can at least reduce the or possibly prevent the worst possible outcomes, but we are destined to have to live with a significant shift in the climatic conditions.

I'm not trying to belittle the issues in the Ukraine, nor am I discussing the reasons for them, but we have to begin to fully appreciate that teh generations alive to-day have the duty and teh power to act to reduce the effects of human poor usage of fuel today and through past history.

Absolutely 100% this Prof. Just over three weeks ago, I invested in my own piece of a wind farm for exactly these reasons. I bought enough so that the electricity generated by the farm should cover my usage. It means that I know that all the energy that I have to buy in from the grid is offset by a wind turbine that I funded.
It has a nice side effect of accelerating the UKs move to energy security, reducing our reliance on fossil fuels and imports from regimes who use the sale money for acts that are against my ideals.

Join Ripple and save on your bills

Sign up to Ripple energy and power your home with cheaper, greener electricity and save on your bills.

rippleenergy.com

 

[Buckman]

On the contrary - we should be working to make the world a better place for our children and grand children irrespective of what Putin may or may not do.

So we should spend a lot more cash on something that is inferior technology, but lauded as improved technology?
We are already damaging the future environment with wind farms as the blades which have a limited lifespan cannot be recycled at present.
In addition solar panels have a limited life span of about 25 years so what will happen with the vast quantities of solar panels that will no longer be effective?
Creating all these so called environmentally friendly "green" solutions we are damaging the environment now and for the future and at a huge cost!

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/feat...be-recycled-so-they-re-piling-up-in-landfills

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51325101

 

[Tobes]

So we should spend a lot more cash on something that is inferior technology, but lauded as improved technology?

I am not sure I understand what you are getting at here. Wind turbines are high technology items. Perhaps you are referring to their lower individual output when compared to say a combined cycle gas turbine generator?

We are already damaging the future environment with wind farms as the blades which have a limited lifespan cannot be recycled at present.

That is not strictly true. Yes there is an article that is showing blades ending up in landfill, but there are lots of articles that debunk this.

Fact check: Wind turbine blades can be recycled, but it rarely happens today

While wind turbine blades are often disposed of in a landfill at the end of their life, recycling technology technically exists to process them.

eu.usatoday.com

Siemens are producing recyclable blades, and EDF are using them

Siemens Gamesa pioneers wind circularity: launch of world’s first recyclable wind turbine blade for commercial use offshore

Wind power is one of the cornerstones in the quest to tackle the climate emergency. With more than 200 GW of new offshore capacity projected by the Global Wind Energy Council to be installed by 2030, it is critical to quickly introduce recyclable solutions.

www.siemensgamesa.com

France have a mandatory recycling policy.

Can wind turbines be recycled? | ENGIE

The first wind turbines to be installed on an industrial scale, back in the early 2000s, are gradually reaching their end of life. Many of these turbines will be removed from the network over the coming decade. What becomes of them at the end of their lifecycle? Can they be recycled?

www.engie.com

We should also remember that wind turbines have a design life of 25 years. That does not mean they stop working on year 26 day 1. It just means that their projected life is reached, and any further use may required additional servicing. Think of it as a petrol car that is 25 years old with say 200,000 miles on it. That is way beyond its design life, but it can be kept going with regular servicing.

The same is also true for gas generation plants. They have a target lifespan of 30 years. After that they may or may not be decommissioned and recycled.

https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy00osti/27715.pdf

If you want to understand the mindblowinly large amount of emissions from from a gas CCG plant, they produce of the order of 500g of CO2 per kWh of energy generated. This is for a 505MW plant, operating for 75% of it's lifecycle. So in kg, 0.5 * 505,000 * 24 * 365 *30 * 0.75 = 49,767,750,000kg of emissions. That is 49,767,750 tonnes. Yes - nearly 50 Million tonnes.
If one wind turbine weighs 300 tonnes and generates up to 2.35MW, you would need perhaps 250 to support the same as one gas generator. Thats 75,000 tonnes. Or of the order of 1/1000 of the raw material for the same output.

In addition solar panels have a limited life span of about 25 years so what will happen with the vast quantities of solar panels that will no longer be effective?

Again - that is design life, not lifespan.

Creating all these so called environmentally friendly "green" solutions we are damaging the environment now and for the future and at a huge cost!

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/feat...be-recycled-so-they-re-piling-up-in-landfills

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51325101

I won't quote climate change evidence here. If you don't believe that humankind is destroying it's own habitat already, with the overwhelming evidence presented by people far more qualified to do so than me, them nothing I say will change your mind. What I will say, is that man made climate change is real whether we choose to believe it or not.

 

[Dustydog]

Seems to me most people are on the same page here.
1. No matter what we must keep investigating clean alternative energy fuels.
2. Fossil fuels will still have a part to play during most of our lifetimes.
3.Whilst the U.K. doesn’t even contribute 1% world pollution, zero would be better.
4. Maybe France was correct sticking with nuclear?
5. Germany has made a major U Turn and is building massive gas storage reservoirs. I hear whispers they may start up some coal fired stations?
6.The Economy is on its knees. New technologies are sadly still beyond most peoples pocket.
7. I suspect it is the timing of ditching fossil fuels that is the problem. It will never be a turn key operation . We need a smooth transition away from FFs but in the meantime , hopefully short term, we should not be afraid to continue using them and sourcing them at home.
8. Covid has cost us dearly as will the Beast from the East.