Which tyres

[ProfJohnL]

Back in 2018 we experienced the "beast from the East" snow storm, and at the time my VW Passat which is sat on Goodyear EfficientGrip tyres really struggled for grip on some relatively minor hills which my previous Saab barely noticed. I thought it was most likely becasue of the severity of the weather at the time. But just a few days ago the same thing happened, and it has made me wonder if I could find better all weather tyre for the UK.

Whilst doing some research I came across a youtube presentation which really stood out for me. I appreciate this is an American website, and I have not checked to see if the models of tyres are available in the UK, but I think it makes a good case for considering alternate tyres especially for winter.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22pMODgh6bE

 

[Hutch]

Knokian Weatherproofs,
A couple of years ago, we were driving to Switzerland several times and also going into the Alsace area of France. During the winter. So we required a snow flake rated tyre. After a lot of investigation I went for the Knokians..

 

[otherclive]

I have had Michelin Climate Control plus on two cars. On a Nissan Note and Superb 4x4 estate. They are strongly directional but were fine during Beast from East on both cars. Not brilliant on the Superb towing off a wet muddy CL
My Subaru has Bridgestone Weather Control as they are unidirectional but with a more open tread better for towing grip. And fine in last weeks snow too. They have a better performance in wet slush etc than the Michelin but poorer snow performance.

Go onto Autoexpress and look for the links to tyre tests. They are mainly all German test reviews but in English. Winter. Summer and All Seasons comprehensively covered.


PS Edit. Continental were late to the all seasons ranges but their tyre comes out well in several trials. However I was dissuaded from selecting it for the Subaru as the website implied they were more suited fir lighter cars in an urban environment. Perhaps wear rate was traded off against some other parameters. The Continental video on the link describes the Allseason contact ......mild temperatures, urban and limited mileage.


https://www.continental-tyres.co.uk/car/tyres/allseasoncontact

 

[RogerL]

I've got Vredestein Quatrac Pro on my Touareg, they're All-Season but also winter rated with 3PMSF - they're Assymetric, not Directional, so can be rotated across all four positions.

Michelin CrossClimate, Nokian Weatherproof and Goodyear Vector Four Seasons are well regarded but are Directional so have to stay the same side when "rotated".

 

[otherclive]

Back in 2018 we experienced the "beast from the East" snow storm, and at the time my VW Passat which is sat on Goodyear EfficientGrip tyres really struggled for grip on some relatively minor hills which my previous Saab barely noticed. I thought it was most likely becasue of the severity of the weather at the time. But just a few days ago the same thing happened, and it has made me wonder if I could find better all weather tyre for the UK.

Whilst doing some research I came across a youtube presentation which really stood out for me. I appreciate this is an American website, and I have not checked to see if the models of tyres are available in the UK, but I think it makes a good case for considering alternate tyres especially for winter.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22pMODgh6bE

Prof
There’s a terminology mismatch on the video between British and US understanding of all season tyres. In the video what we would call M&S the American commentator calls all season. What we would call All Season he calls All Weather. But from the test the all weather come out better than the all season as defined by US terminology. When looking at U.K. websites you will not see all weather tyres offered. You get Summer( inc M&S), All Season which should have 3PMSF rating and Winter.


What the test didn’t show was the comparison between tyres for dry, wet braking or cornering. Straight aqua plane or curved aqua plane at cold or temperate conditions the Autoexpress reviews use extensive comparative trials. Readers can then make up their minds what characteristics are important to them. But like all things it’s a trade off. Ideally cars should have winter and summer tyres. But today it was -1 here. In two days it will be 12 deg and above 7 fir some further days. Snow, unless you live in the northern area or Scotland is a rarity. So to me outright snow performance isn’t as important as braking in the wet/dry and aqua plane resistance. Noise and comfort are good features on long trips.


https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/search/all season tyres

https://www.tyrereviews.com/Article/2020-Tyre-Reviews-All-Season-Tyre-Test.htm


https://www.tyrereviews.com/


2020 all seasons video

 

[RogerL]

There’s a terminology mismatch on the video between British and US understanding of all season tyres. In the video what we would call M&S the American commentator calls all season. What we would call All Season he calls All Weather. But from the test the all weather come out better than the all season as defined by US terminology. When looking at U.K. websites you will not see all weather tyres offered. You get Summer( inc M&S), All Season which should have 3PMSF rating and Winter.

M+S is an American-originated marketing term that has no definition or standards - the 3PMSF "snowflake" is a European UNECE definition with minimum standards.

 

[otherclive]

M+S is an American-originated marketing term that has no definition or standards - the 3PMSF "snowflake" is a European UNECE definition with minimum standards.

M&S has been used over here as well for years, but I never said it had a minimum standard. All that I indicated was that some summer tyres may also be identified as M&S. They tend to have a slightly more aggressive tread which could marginally be an improvement compared to standard summer tyres. But in several EU countries they would not meet the legal requirements for tyres suitable for use in winter conditions. Whereas All Season 3PMSF are legal. in those countries. Albeit with differing levels of performance in snow. But here outright snow performance isn’t necessarily the criteria for selection.

Buyers should be aware that some All Season tyres may be marked MS but not 3PMSF so aren’t legal in some countries for winter conditions and even here their winter performance be questionable.

 

[JezzerB]

I considered all season tyres for my daughter on her recent purchase BUT the ones on are good quality Avons and good tread so am waiting-the consequences were in this snow, dad got up at 2.30am to pick her up from college residence and get her to work-and back at 1pm! Just done it 3 days now when it was really bad. Thankfully no work this weekend but Morrisons are mega busy so they needed her at 4am!
SWMBO is petrified of driving in any ice or snow so we've always had a set of cheap wheels-ebay alloys-and winter tyres-our Roadster S (mini 184bhp) is running on Hankook Winter icepts till end of March -when I swap them back to nice alloys and summer Continentals. She had to drive past a Discovery stuck on a hill in the snow-she didn't dare stop to help as she felt she might not get going but the occupants faces as she drove past in a soft top Mini was, apparently , a picture. They are fairly good tyres but no where near as good as the Pirelli Winters we have on our Mini Electric which I went for my daughter in -at least 3 inches of snow in our village and traction control nor abs ever kicked in till i tried it to see what sort of limits I had-VERY impressed with these-car was rock solid and felt very safe and secure. They were expensive as they were Mini's recommended winter tyre but of course you save on the wear on summers as long as you swap them back. We'll just have to be careful tomorrow as it's forecast 11 degrees and the winters feel most unpleasant above single figures-bit of a reverse situation.

Basically good winter tyres are worth their weight IF it snows but it doesn't v often and I'll be buying my daughter all seasons or cross climates-Goodyear get great ratings for the price, when hers wear out.

 

[otherclive]

I considered all season tyres for my daughter on her recent purchase BUT the ones on are good quality Avons and good tread so am waiting-the consequences were in this snow, dad got up at 2.30am to pick her up from college residence and get her to work-and back at 1pm! Just done it 3 days now when it was really bad. Thankfully no work this weekend but Morrisons are mega busy so they needed her at 4am!
SWMBO is petrified of driving in any ice or snow so we've always had a set of cheap wheels-ebay alloys-and winter tyres-our Roadster S (mini 184bhp) is running on Hankook Winter icepts till end of March -when I swap them back to nice alloys and summer Continentals. She had to drive past a Discovery stuck on a hill in the snow-she didn't dare stop to help as she felt she might not get going but the occupants faces as she drove past in a soft top Mini was, apparently , a picture. They are fairly good tyres but no where near as good as the Pirelli Winters we have on our Mini Electric which I went for my daughter in -at least 3 inches of snow in our village and traction control nor abs ever kicked in till i tried it to see what sort of limits I had-VERY impressed with these-car was rock solid and felt very safe and secure. They were expensive as they were Mini's recommended winter tyre but of course you save on the wear on summers as long as you swap them back. We'll just have to be careful tomorrow as it's forecast 11 degrees and the winters feel most unpleasant above single figures-bit of a reverse situation.

Basically good winter tyres are worth their weight IF it snows but it doesn't v often and I'll be buying my daughter all seasons or cross climates-Goodyear get great ratings for the price, when hers wear out.

The new Cross Climate 2 has just been released in North America so I expect they will be in Europe before too long. In the US they have 60000 warranty on front tyres and 30000 on rears. How that’s determined if you rotate tyres heaven knows. It’s amazing how the quality AS tyres have improved over the years. But so have summers and winters too I guess. Technology doesn’t stand still.

 

[Lutz]

There seems to be a misconception that winter tyres are only required in snow and ice. It's a fact that the performance of summer tyres is inferior to winter tyres even under perfectly dry conditions as the temperature drops down to freezing. That's why winter tyres are recommended at anything below about 7°C and are legally required in some countries, even when there is no snow or ice.

 

[RogerL]

The new Cross Climate 2 has just been released in North America so I expect they will be in Europe before too long. In the US they have 60000 warranty on front tyres and 30000 on rears. How that’s determined if you rotate tyres heaven knows. It’s amazing how the quality AS tyres have improved over the years. But so have summers and winters too I guess. Technology doesn’t stand still.

The long mileage warranty on some tyres in the USA is down to using a different compound compared to the otherwise identical tyre sold in Europe - I presume that's at the expense of grip.

 

[otherclive]

There seems to be a misconception that winter tyres are only required in snow and ice. It's a fact that the performance of summer tyres is inferior to winter tyres even under perfectly dry conditions as the temperature drops down to freezing. That's why winter tyres are recommended at anything below about 7°C and are legally required in some countries, even when there is no snow or ice.

At the start of autumn you will see adverts in our press and magazines for winter tyres because of their better performance as temperatures drop. They seem to emphasise as you do that it’s temperature not necessarily snow that is the “ driving” condition. Forgive the pun. Audi even have a scheme to store your tyres if they are bought through an Audi dealership. As a matter of interest we have two police officers as neighbours and I plan to ask them what are fitted to the local area cars and the high speed traffic cars.

 

[JezzerB]

Totally agree Lutz -anything below 7 and they come in to their own with better grip and lower wear rates.It's well researched and proven. Above that, YUK! That is why we had them-they generally come in to their own even over our winter periods.
As you say quite rightly many think they are not worth it as they only work in snow but that's not true-they are amazing in snow though!

The other misconception is they are expensive; well I suppose the outlay for another set of tyres is, but if you think both the winters and summers are working at their optimum temps most of the time they wear optimally and of course you roughly halve the wear-so we're on the same set of summer tyres and winters from when we bought the car-time will probably mean we need to replace them rather than wear-I don't believe in over keeping car tyres just like caravan tyres-thinking 7 years is long enough.

You don't even have to diy these days either-many tyre depots and dealerships have 'tyre hotels' they keep the tyres for you till the correct season and put them on your rims-if you buy from them it's all at a discounted rate. My preference is to save the cash and save the tyre walls from repeated on s and offs though so they are tucked away under blankets-honestly, in the garage.

 

[JezzerB]

Clive Autoexpress do some very good independent reviews of summer winter and cross climate tyres with each area ie wet braking/handling, snow braking and handling etc all itemised and free to view if you go onto the accessories tests pages -across the top. Lots of annoying pop ups but it's free.

 

[ProfJohnL]

My purpose behind starting this thread was highlight how much difference there can be between differnt types of tyre especially in freezing conditions.

In the past I held the view that in England there is little practical benefit of using full winter tyres, and I still believe that is true as we rarely have sustained freezing conditions. But I am growing the opinion that with energy efficiency driving the development of cars, there is a danger car manufacturers will be using tyres with lower rolling resistance, but this is usually at the cost of grip in more challenging conditions.

Consequently I'm coming round to looking for a better all season grip, and have to put up with a higher wear rate.

 

[RogerL]

My purpose behind starting this thread was highlight how much difference there can be between differnt types of tyre especially in freezing conditions.

In the past I held the view that in England there is little practical benefit of using full winter tyres, and I still believe that is true as we rarely have sustained freezing conditions. But I am growing the opinion that with energy efficiency driving the development of cars, there is a danger car manufacturers will be using tyres with lower rolling resistance, but this is usually at the cost of grip in more challenging conditions.

Consequently I'm coming round to looking for a better all season grip, and have to put up with a higher wear rate.

I concluded that Winter, or winter-rated All-Season, tyres were a good idea in the UK because of the cold, wet winters we get even though sub-zero temperatures and snow are rare at low altitudes because of climate change - we do get plenty of winters below +7 degrees C as well as plenty of wet winters (and wet summers!).

As an aside, I've heard that Nokian Hakkapeliitta are the very best in snow/ice but not justified for the UK.

 

[otherclive]

Totally agree Lutz -anything below 7 and they come in to their own with better grip and lower wear rates.It's well researched and proven. Above that, YUK! That is why we had them-they generally come in to their own even over our winter periods.
As you say quite rightly many think they are not worth it as they only work in snow but that's not true-they are amazing in snow though!

The other misconception is they are expensive; well I suppose the outlay for another set of tyres is, but if you think both the winters and summers are working at their optimum temps most of the time they wear optimally and of course you roughly halve the wear-so we're on the same set of summer tyres and winters from when we bought the car-time will probably mean we need to replace them rather than wear-I don't believe in over keeping car tyres just like caravan tyres-thinking 7 years is long enough.

You don't even have to diy these days either-many tyre depots and dealerships have 'tyre hotels' they keep the tyres for you till the correct season and put them on your rims-if you buy from them it's all at a discounted rate. My preference is to save the cash and save the tyre walls from repeated on s and offs though so they are tucked away under blankets-honestly, in the garage.

Following that horrific crash on the northbound M5 in 2015 which we passed just after it had happened a new law is coming in for categories of commercial vehicles limiting tyre life to 10 years. Too long in my opinion but at least it should get the worst offenders sorted.

 

[JezzerB]

Well Prof the research says winters below 7 are better than summers regardless and I like the secure feeling they give me, although I still drive with caution and slower than many of the cars around here! The way they disregard the cold and ice never ceases to amaze me and I wasn't surprised to see a few in ditches last week.
All seasons imo are a very good compromise; my mother has just had the new highly rated Falken Euroall seasons fitted-very reasonably priced but as for wear; not sure yet as they've barely used the car over lockdown.

 

[Buckman]

Seems Continental do not do Allseason in my size of tyre 265/50 R20. I have Continental UHP on the front and are considering replacing the rear tyres with Continental Contact 6.
Apparently they are a better in the wet even though they are summer tyres. As it is the two rear tyres that need replacing I would change the front tyres to the rear and have the new ones on the front.
Not much choice for Allseason in 265/50 R20 and not too keen on Pirelli tyres as the last lot I had on the S80 seem to puncture easily.

 

[RogerL]

Seems Continental do not do Allseason in my size of tyre 265/50 R20. I have Continental UHP on the front and are considering replacing the rear tyres with Continental Contact 6.
Apparently they are a better in the wet even though they are summer tyres. As it is the two rear tyres that need replacing I would change the front tyres to the rear and have the new ones on the front.
Not much choice for Allseason in 265/50 R20 and not too keen on Pirelli tyres as the last lot I had on the S80 seem to puncture easily.

The accepted wisdom is to fit new tyres on the rear axle if only two tyres being fitted - regardless of which axle(s) are driven.

 

[Buckman]

The accepted wisdom is to fit new tyres on the rear axle if only two tyres being fitted - regardless of which axle(s) are driven.

The vehicle is AWD so not sure if that makes a difference?

 

[otherclive]

Seems Continental do not do Allseason in my size of tyre 265/50 R20. I have Continental UHP on the front and are considering replacing the rear tyres with Continental Contact 6.
Apparently they are a better in the wet even though they are summer tyres. As it is the two rear tyres that need replacing I would change the front tyres to the rear and have the new ones on the front.
Not much choice for Allseason in 265/50 R20 and not too keen on Pirelli tyres as the last lot I had on the S80 seem to puncture easily.

In my post above I explained Continental’s position re their All Seasons and a Jeep doesn’t really meet their criteria.

 

[JezzerB]

Think the advice is still the same but of course with 4x4 you need to keep the tread within set limits or the running gear can suffer damage by compensating. Rotating the tyres so they all end up changed at the same time is the best policy.

 

[RogerL]

The vehicle is AWD so not sure if that makes a difference?

The same advice applies - hence "axle(s)"

It's not just about traction - it's also about braking and stability - the average driver, and most skilled drivers, can handle understeer much better than oversteer.

 

[otherclive]

The vehicle is AWD so not sure if that makes a difference?

Your owners manual will tell you. On my Sorento it was recommended that if you fitted only two tyres put them on the rear and ideally have the tread depth identical to the front or slightly deeper. Same on my Pajero. My Subaru requires all tyres to be within 1 mm of each other. Haldex systems seem more tolerant but they run FWD with a small amount of power to the rear until more is required. I would check your manual. Powertrain damage is expensive to repair.