Winter Tyres

[otherclive]

One of the problems in keeping traffic moving in winter is that modern tyres are not so efficient in cold/snowy conditions as the tyres available say in the 1960-70s. Recently in Frankfurt I noticed that most of the cars had winter tyres fitted and these were not studded but just looked like normal tyres with more sipes. Some on high speed motors were unidirectional. So I then saw the Youtube video comparing two cars, on fwd the other rwd, both with and without winter tyres. The results are quite dramatic in the performance of winter tyres over 'normal' ones. Such so that I am considering fitting a set to my wifes car (mines 4wd on AT M&S anyway). But one thought struck me about winter tyers in UK. If we have a warm/wet spell of weather in our normal winter are do the characteristics of winter tyers degrade such that you might be at graeter risk if losing control in an emergency?

 

[Damian]

http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Article/reasons-to-consider-winter-tyres.htm
You may find this article some use.

 

[MichaelE]

This article about winter tyres was in Autoexpress last week

Motorists looking for extra grip in the cold snap are being frustrated not only by a major shortage in winter tyres – but also by insurers increasing 
premiums for fitting them!
After last season’s heavy snowfalls, demand for winter rubber has boomed, catching makers on the hop. Reader Nigel Loriman, from Gloucester, was unable to source patterns from Goodyear, Dunlop or Continental – the top three firms in our Cold Weather Tyre Test. “I’ve tried half-a-dozen retailers, plus more online,” he explained.
Meanwhile, Dan Davis, boss of wholesaler Malvern Tyres, said: “None of the major makers has anything available, and nothing more coming in until January.” Continental has delivered nearly 400 per cent more winter tyres to the UK in October than in 
the same period in 2009. And 
a spokesman for Goodyear said: “We have experienced shortages in some sizes due 
to extreme demand, but are increasing our production.”
Meanwhile, some insurers are failing to spot the benefit and are raising premiums. Auto Express subscriber David Gana, from Oldham, Lancs, said Frizzell told him the “modification” of winter tyres for his Renault Laguna would hike his premium by £230. And www.singletrackworld.com forum contributor Swalsey was surprised when he rang Admiral to see if his winter tyres would attract a discount. “It quoted an INCREASE of £22!” he fumed.
Neil Greig, director of policy and research at the Institute of Advanced Motorists, said: “I’m surprised. Winter tyres’ safety benefits are clear – I think they’d outweigh any additional costs.”

 

[JonnyG]

I don't doubt anything said here concerning insurance companies "trying" to hike your insurance premium simply because you change to winter tyres, or the simple fact that the sales men you are talking to possibly knows less about it than you or I.
I do have winter tyres on my bus [Alhambra] and as it is not a modification and the tyre sizes are standard for my model size and index, and speed rating too thats the important bit and i suppose this is where an insurance company could void your policy . i have never bothered to inform my insurance company of the fact, as they are quite legal and can be run through all the year as they are not studded versions,which I believe the stupid insurance blokes or lassies may be thinking is what you are talking about!
and besides that who really thinks about these things until reminded by threads like these, i mean most people buy tyres and trust the garage to put the right ones on, usually going for something in there price range and a good brand, most people don't say,"I want summer tyres please"A search of tyre offered on their sites will show that winter tyres are not a specially brought in range when the weather changes nor are they an after market thing they are a legal tyre that can be used legally all year.
besides if you own a second-hand car, how many prior to now have actually read the writing on the side of the tyres to know that they didnt have winter tyres on already?

If indeed the worse scenario did occur and I was involved in an accident, and by some miracle the insurance company decided to try to use this fact as an excuse to not pay up, you will find you have the law and the ombudsman on your side.
If you really feel the need to tell your insurance company, dont bother with the sales rep, get through to the actual underwriters who should hopefully understand what you are doing, which is not a modification.
If it is then so is using any other brand of fuel, tyre, or product than comes recommended by the car manufacturer.

PS. this is my own opinion and is an honest post on how I see things and what I do.

 

[Lutz]

If we have a warm/wet spell of weather in our normal winter are do the characteristics of winter tyers degrade such that you might be at graeter risk if losing control in an emergency?

Using winter tyres in warmer weather only means that the tread wears quicker than a regular summer tyre. You wouldn't lose anything performancewise.

 

[ShadySadie]

Hubby has directed me to this recent demo for the winter tyre argument.

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-video/bmw-x3-video-summer-or-winter-tyres/

 

[Philspadders]

mmm, to have 2 sets of rims and 2 sets of tyres for what... 3 days per year, at a cost of .... say £400 for the tyres and another £200 to £400 for the rims.
Is it worth it.

And dont even contemplate using the same rims and keep changing your tyres over, its not a good for the tyre.

 

[MichaelE]

Ref the autocar test, i wonder if the summer tyres are the standard run flats that BMW use.
My wife had runflats on a 3 series tourer and couldnt get any grip to reverse from flat car parking space in the ice, i know the tyres are bi-directional but still ??

 

[colin-yorkshire1]

hi all.
I suppose someone will be along soon telling me this is the wrong thing to do however over the last 10 years or so I have fitted 2 winter tyres and two wet tyres on the car in the summer the wets go on the front (fwd car) and the winter ones on the back at the end of october begining of november the winter tyres go on the front and the wets go on the back. there is no significant difference in tyre ware either summer or winter. plus the added scope of being able to put the winter tyres on the front if we get significant wet spells and the pitces are a bit muddy. as of yet I have never been stuck anywhere at any time. as the saying goes it works for me.

colin

 

[ShadySadie]

I have winter tyres on my M3. I wouldn't get far on an icy or snowy road without them. David my hubby changes our tyres as he has a full tyre fitting setup in our garage. He changes race tyres on rims time and time again and race tyres are less robust than road tyres. You only change to winter rubber when winter comes and change back in spring time. We don't know why changing road tyres on rims would be troublesome.

 

[Lutz]

Some here seem to be under the mistaken impression that winter tyres are only for ice and snow. Actually, at or below ambient temperatures of about 7°C they provide much better grip than regular tyres under all road conditions, including dry roads.

 

[MichaelE]

The average cost for tyre swapping is £10- £14 around here plus the muppets dont take care of your alloys which really does wind me up.
Removing the balencing weights with a 1 inch wood chisel Grrrrrrrr

 

[Philspadders]

We don't know why changing road tyres on rims would be troublesome.

Rubber compunds in tyres do like being presurised and re pressurised repeatedly.The sidewals can start to deteriorate. Als the sealing bead can start to be damaged.
Its a practice i was advised not to carry out by a leading tyre manufacturer.... it was 15 years ago when i raced Clios, and Karts.
Ps i Drive a 320d , its on summer tyres. I live in South Yorkshire. We have just had over 2' of snow . Its now icy. I was driving it last Friday and over the weekend and today. And the 320d is dire in these conditions. ( i haver got 100kg og steel in the boot- which helps with the rar end grip a little- and turn off that totally useless DTC function).

I did have to use the 4x4 on Wednesday and Thurday, but then again there was nothing else on the roads that could handle the condtions. Even with Winter or SWnow tyres the Beemer would have gone nowehere.

 

[Guest]

Having spent a number of years living and working in both Austria and Hungary where fitting winter tyres is a legal requirement, I have to state that I saw little difference in road safety. The main factors that affect safe driving are the same as anywhere else, good gentle driving, correct speeds and looking ahead. Driving along the A1 motorway into Vienna in deep snow and the ';idiots' are still racing along at 60-70 mph assuming their 'winter tyres' will keep them out of trouble. The number of smash ups tended to disprove this optimism. If you plan on driving into the 'hills' then snow chains or studded tyres would be a good bet, if you stick to urban driving then caution is the watchword, plus of course ensuring any tyres have good tread depths. Many of the locals in these countries did not have 2 sets of wheels merely changing the tyres every 6 months. To my mind the potential damage to the rim would be as much an issue as not changing the things. The average Austrian 'kwikfit' fitter usually had his trusty sledge hammer for all eventualities. Pretty much as many other places I am sure.

Austrian drivers are also encouraged to do skid pan driving schools and while no doubt of some benefit, they had little to offer that a few years of driving on Scottish roads could not achieve better. Maybe that is why we produce a good number of rally drivers.

If at the end of the day you want to indulge in winter tyres, then by all means. It is your money, but do not asume they allow you to forget the 'rule book'.

 

[colin-yorkshire1]

why anyone would think fitting snow/mud tyres means you can fly round like it was on a dry road beats me just plain nutters
bit like putting offroad tyres on a clio for a spot of off roading on a 4x4 track ?? no chance.
winter tyres only give a little more grip due to the tread pattern and rubber compound as the snow/mud is thrown off the tyre as it revolves round. normal tyres with small tread pattern clog up effectively turing them in to slicks the faster the wheel spins under acceleration the worse it gets even with snow tyres on.
slow accereration in the higest gear possible with minimum braking and forward looking anticipation is the only way to go even with the best tyres on board.
our road is on a long slight incline and during the heavyest snow fall last week only 2 cars made it out to the main road, mine and the guy further down that has a land cruiser.

 

[ShadySadie]

Philspadders. My M3 must have nearly two and half times more horsepower then a 320d. Winter tyres are really a 'must have' if I'm not using my 4x4 in winter and they make quite a difference. My OH has worked with F1 tyre manufacturers for years whilst he was a full time F1 engineer, if changing to winter tyres on the same wheel rims was a danger he would know. We are lucky as a set of four M3 tyres costs David less than one tyre from a regular dealer.

 

[MichaelE]

I cant remember winter tyres being fitted on an F1 car

Winter tyre compound totally different to normal rubber.

 

[JonnyG]

I cant remember winter tyres being fitted on an F1 car

Winter tyre compound totally different to normal rubber.

Is it? I cannot find a normal tyre, although there is an all season one, then there are the summer tyres and then there is the winter tyre, not to be confused with proper snow tyres.

 

[MichaelE]

True what is normal rubber?

I suppose it is what they would fit off the shelf.
I have never been asked just said i want x make and let them get on with it,not sure if i have summer or all season?
Winter tyres have a softer compound to retain their flexability, summer tyres are a harder compound, all season tyres are an average of the 2 compounds.
Do the tyres that are fitted to cars from the factory depend on what country it is sold in?

 

[ShadySadie]

I cant remember winter tyres being fitted on an F1 car

Winter tyre compound totally different to normal rubber.

hee hee heee M E you're a wag,
Most race team mechanics and team truckies are trained to fit tyres and balance wheels as race cars use so many different tyres. Before current F1 tyre restrictions a team could have over a thousand plus tyres for a two day test for two cars due to different compounds and wet weather specs. My nearest and dearest has probably seen more tyre changes than a 40 year service KwikFitt fitter and race engineers are accountable for their drivers safety.
So you have a clear understanding, racing tyre are not as robust as road tyres and their side walls are not as strong, if they can be changed on and off rims multiple times and stored for another day how can changing tyres for winter on road wheels be dangerous was my point.

 

[OmOnWeelz]

I tried driving a neighbours 308 SW fitted with "safe" run flat tyres, in 3 to 4 inches of snow it couldn't get off a sightly sloped driveway. The run flats just have wide bands of tread around the tyre, and no tread blocks or grooves across the tyre.
Def in need of winter tyres, neighbours company has twelve of the 2010 cars and none of the staff could get anywhere in snow and ice.

 

[Steve L]

While I agree winter tyres are a good idea and personally I would fit a set to cheap second hand steel rims rather than risk scrapping my nice alloys, I think the wider issue is that most people haven't got a clue how to drive safely in rain let alone snow and ice!!

A typical example of how we panic in britain came to light last week when we had a cold snap in the midlands. Driving instructors took their pupils out for their pre test lesson. Then they were faced by driving test examiners refusing to conduct tests just because of normal autum/winter conditions. Even the pupil interviewed on TV felt confident she could perform adequately during her test. I thought that people were taught to drive in all weathers and conditions. When I took my driving lessons (all11) and subsequent test in fog with 100 yard visability, I had to demonstrate capability. Even passed my motor bike test despite a slight skid on U turning where the examiner instructed me to do it, because as he put it, I demonstrated quick reaction to the unexpected and regained control quickly.

Mud & snow tyres used to be common place when Motorway Remoulds were in business at Knighton, Powis. They were a very robust casing with soft compound tread moulded onto them. If I remember rightly they were also H rated whch although legally you could only do 70Mph legally, they were rated to 98Mph for the rally brigade like a family friend of ours Bill Bengry, Who famously rallied a "none Rolls Royce" in the London to Sydney rally on remould mud & snow tyres.

Today with cars sporting lower and lower profile tyres there is virtually no elasticity in the side walls to give a bit of grip. Having higher profile tyres on smaller rims specifically for mud & snow would help cars to progress in snow, but educating drivers to drive light footed takes a lot longer.

 

[OmOnWeelz]

Mud & snow tyres used to be common place when Motorway Remoulds were in business at Knighton, Powis. They were a very robust casing with soft compound tread moulded onto them. If I remember rightly they were also H rated whch although legally you could only do 70Mph legally, they were rated to 98Mph for the rally brigade like a family friend of ours Bill Bengry, Who famously rallied a "none Rolls Royce" in the London to Sydney rally on remould mud & snow tyres.

"the older we get the better we were"
Bill Bengry was the first car off the start of the Daily Express London to Sydney Rally, he was flagged away in his FORD by the then Miss Australia from Crystal Palace.
Bill drove 1 of 2 Rolls Royces entries in the 1970 London to Mexico World Cup Rally a Silver Shadow (Bengry) and a Silver Cloud. Rolls Royce dissasociated themselves from the modified entries, Bengry car sprouted Roo Bars and over the roof exhaust. Not exactly RR style, so they were 'Non' Rolls Royces. The 1970 race started in Wembley Stadium with Ginger Bakers Air Force playing, Neither car finished, seem to remember that they had wheel problems, they fell off. May be they should have used new tyres

It also helps to have experience of driving on snow and ice, and in recent years not many of us get the opportunity to develop
severe winter driving skills. Cars also develop more power now than when Steve learnt to drive, and that is harder to harness than driving the cars of year ago to be fair.

 

[Steve L]

My Father and I made quite a lot of parts for Bill and it was quite funny for Bill when he showed us the letter he'd had from RR telling him to remover all badges and the spirit of extacy from the Roller. I couldn't remember if it was oz or mexico. He also rallied a Mk 2 cortina sporting his roof exhaust system.
I agree there is more BHP in cars today, but that does not excuse people getting lazy and dependant on ABS, Traction Control or winter tyres. My current car has tracion control and abs, but it's too sensative with just ABS on. You need the Traction Control to over ride the ABS to get a sensible braking affect. Now I know one doesn't use the brakes until the last few feet of motion but never the less, I would like some braking before ABS kicks in. Sure it could be the tyres, but they are only a month old so they have hardly lost any tread depth over the 1500 miles of use on the front and the back ones are good with 6mm of tread.

I might well be "old school", but I prefer to be boss over the electronic gizmo's rather than the other way round.

 

[Philspadders]

ABS is for deceration, Traction Control works under acceleration and not deceleration and usually restricts throttle and does apply the brakes. You may be getting confused with ESC which works under acceleration, and deceleration and plays with the throttle and brakes.

ABS is in effect Traction control.

I have all 3 systems and under acceleration TC is great , under normal driving and cruising ESC steps in then ABS would work under braking. I also have the option to turn TC and ESC off.
My vehcile is also 4 wheel drive, and TC can get it very confused at times especially when the ctr diff lock is engaged.