working out the 85% rule

[Lutz]

It's not as easy as that, Glenn. Nissan will not know the weight of anybody's car to within 1kg unless they actually weigh the car as it comes off the line. As I pointed out before, material tolerances can already account for a 30kg variation. As the Nissan X-Trail Columbia 2.2 diesel has few listed factory-fitted options, I can think of the following reasons for a much larger 125kg variation:

1. The quoted figure covers variants other than the Columbia 2.2 diesel.

2. The quoted figure covers not only the UK market but differences in equipment specification elsewhere, as well.

3. There may have been changes to specification affecting kerbweight since start of production of the model and the published data covers both old and new.

 

[WatsonJohnG]

The reason is that when asked the person who had to answer the question just looked at the brochure and quoted the fogure in the brochure for all the diesel variants of all X-Trail models rather than go to the trouble of answering the question asked.

Which is what caused me to ask if there was availabe another source of kerbweights.

 

[Lutz]

Whereas specifications for GVW, Gross Train Weight and axle loads are generic, i.e. the figures cover part or all of a particular model range regardless of options fitted, kerbweight is very specific to each car.

For example, the GVW may be the same whether the car is fitted with or without automatic transmission, air conditioning, factory fitted towbar (some of those weigh up to 40kg), and sunroof - all relatively heavy options - but the kerbweight can be quite different. A database is therefore only as accurate as the degree of detailed information it contains.

 

[WatsonJohnG]

This database seems more precise and gives the Nissan X Trail Columbia as 1650kg

http://www.carpages.co.uk/guide/nissan/nissan-x-trail-guide.asp

 

[Lutz]

I still have reservations about any database. Without knowing where 'Carpages' got their information from, I wouldn't hazard a guess how precise or inaccurate their data is. Even if they actually measured the weight of one car, I would still expect variations in the order of

 

[WatsonJohnG]

So have I and that is why I wondered if you knew of any authoritive source to begin with.

They do list different weights for different models which seem to get higher for the higher spec.

They do say consult the manufacturer for latest figures but then we know where that gets you with Nissan.

 

[STEPHEN_374226156]

It seems to me that this is getting extreamly complicated for people who are not seasoned towers therefore make it simple

1. do not exceed the manufactures max towing weight

2. if your not comfortable with this take 85% of this weight and stick to it

3. pay better attention to your loading and you will get a better safer and more stable tow

 

[WatsonJohnG]

Hi Stephen

The problem with using 85% of the manufacturers tow weight is that different criteria is used by different manufacturers.

Some like Renault reduce the tow load as you increase the load on the car in the form of luggage and passsengers.

Nissan give the max tow weight for the X-Trail(for instance) as 2000kg or 350kg more than their heaviest quoted kerbweight.Even at 85% you would still be above the car kerbweight by 50kg.

 

[Lutz]

John, the recommendation is 85% of the kerbweight, not of the manufacturer's towload. However, even with a variation of, say 50kg, on a car weighing 1600kg, the weight ratio will only change by 2.7%. I challenge anybody to be able to tell the difference between the way an outfit handles at 85% compared to 87.7%.

 

[WatsonJohnG]

Lutz I know that but in the Stephen's posting he refers to 85% of the manufacturers tow weight

Quote

It seems to me that this is getting extreamly complicated for people who are not seasoned towers therefore make it simple

1. do not exceed the manufactures max towing weight

2. if your not comfortable with this take 85% of this weight and stick to it

3. pay better attention to your loading and you will get a better safer and more stable tow

 

[Lutz]

Using 85% of the manufacturer's specified towload doesn't make sense because that figure is based on technical performance and capability and has little to do with the stability of the outfit. Your example using the X-Trail figures shows how an outfit can still be over 100% based on the kerbweight figure. At the other end of the scale, the old Zafira had a max. towload 1050kg although the kerbweight was around 1400-1500kg. If you take 85% of 1050kg, you'd be left with a silly load that wouldn't be of any use to anyone.

 

[WatsonJohnG]

I think that betwen us we expressed that very well

regards

 

[mistralse]

Now I understand!!!.

 

[Steve L]

I think Stephen has a point.

I'm "ok Jack" I have towed trailers for 30 years and of all types and with some realy wiered loads. Even towed a 30 by 15 shed assembled on a yacht trailer with my Diahatsu under escort conditions.

But stephen's points 1 and

 

[Lutz]

If you were towing a 3500kg trailer with a Daihatsu you were asking for trouble. Quite apart from the fact that you were way beyond the manufacturer's towload limit, it should have been quite obvious from just looking at the combination that it was anything but a safe match.

 

[WatsonJohnG]

I think Stephen has a point.

I'm "ok Jack" I have towed trailers for 30 years and of all types and with some realy wiered loads. Even towed a 30 by 15 shed assembled on a yacht trailer with my Diahatsu under escort conditions.

But stephen's points 1 and

 

[WatsonJohnG]

OOps posted under comments by mistake

AM Steve in Leo-regards

Quote

"Lutz I know that but in the Stephen's posting he refers to 85% of the manufacturers tow weight

Quote

It seems to me that this is getting extreamly complicated for people who are not seasoned towers therefore make it simple

1. do not exceed the manufactures max towing weight

2. if your not comfortable with this take 85% of this weight and stick to it

3. pay better attention to your loading and you will get a better safer and more stable tow"

Stephen has as you say a point but I tried to tactfully point out with Lutz's imput that he made an error in saying in 2 use 85% of the manufacturers towing weight instead of 85% of the kerb weight.

The 85% "rule" refers to the car kerbweight and is an easy way to get a rough idea if your car will tow the caravan.

It goes on to say that experienced caravannners may go up to !00%

Now the snags in using the "rule" are obtaining accurate kerb weights from manufacturers (such as Nissan)and also some manufacturers put low manufacturers towing weights(Lutz's figures

"At the other end of the scale, the old Zafira had a max. towload 1050kg although the kerbweight was around 1400-1500kg. If you take 85% of 1050kg, you'd be left with a silly load that wouldn't be of any use to anyone")

Also in my posting I quote that Nissan give high manufacturers towing weights

If you look in the Practical Caravan Top Towcars guide it has warning triangles (CHECK max tow)

So The simplest way is to start at 85% and then check to see if this is within the manufacturers max tow .

But as has been said before legally its the total train weight of car and van that matter and you must not exceed the manufacturers max tow weight for the towed vehicle

 

[STEPHEN_374226156]

Just to clarify my point i have yet to use any towcar that does not tow safely using the manufacturers max tow weight regardless of it exceeding the 85% kerbweight this includes towing livestock that can be classed as a moving load the important fact in all towing situations is correct loading

 

[Steve L]

Sorry Lutz but Diahatsu F70 SWB commercial 1993 2.8turbo diesel does have a tow capacity of 3500Kgs.

It has a gross train of 5500Kgs.

I used two of these for my engineering business after we got rid of a VW LT35 curtain sider which despite having a 2700cc 6 cylinder diesel wouldn't pull the skin off a rice pudding and did a poultry 14 mpg. Also I had to have a tachograph fitted for towing a trailer which was another head ache because the driver didn't have a scooby doo about taking regular and regimented breaks.

The plusses with the Diahatsu were no sign writing and it looked like a "farmers truck" so I got away with murder. It also did 30mpg which caught out my driver who was nicking 4 gallons a day from the VW un-noticed. Soon caught him with the Dai and he gratiously left before I sacked him.

Excellent vehicle if you want one that does what it says on the box ( tow a trailer) if you want comfort then pass on by.

Steve .

 

[Steve L]

OOps posted under comments by mistake

AM Steve in Leo-regards

Quote

"Lutz I know that but in the Stephen's posting he refers to 85% of the manufacturers tow weight

Quote

It seems to me that this is getting extreamly complicated for people who are not seasoned towers therefore make it simple

1. do not exceed the manufactures max towing weight

2. if your not comfortable with this take 85% of this weight and stick to it

3. pay better attention to your loading and you will get a better safer and more stable tow"

Stephen has as you say a point but I tried to tactfully point out with Lutz's imput that he made an error in saying in 2 use 85% of the manufacturers towing weight instead of 85% of the kerb weight.

The 85% "rule" refers to the car kerbweight and is an easy way to get a rough idea if your car will tow the caravan.

It goes on to say that experienced caravannners may go up to !00%

Now the snags in using the "rule" are obtaining accurate kerb weights from manufacturers (such as Nissan)and also some manufacturers put low manufacturers towing weights(Lutz's figures

"At the other end of the scale, the old Zafira had a max. towload 1050kg although the kerbweight was around 1400-1500kg. If you take 85% of 1050kg, you'd be left with a silly load that wouldn't be of any use to anyone")

Also in my posting I quote that Nissan give high manufacturers towing weights

If you look in the Practical Caravan Top Towcars guide it has warning triangles (CHECK max tow)

So The simplest way is to start at 85% and then check to see if this is within the manufacturers max tow .

But as has been said before legally its the total train weight of car and van that matter and you must not exceed the manufacturers max tow weight for the towed vehicle

John, thats why I purposly only quoted points 1+3 of Stephen's thread as being the sensible ones to use as a guide.

I'm afraid I don't support any 85% kerbweight guide as being a tool to use to gain a safe tow. I find that most novices don't know what they are getting into when towing and appreciate advice and a journey or two with an experienced tower beside them.

I've done this for neearly all of the folks on our estate who have caravans and they appreciate it too.

One guy couldn't reverse for tuppence and after a saturday morning in the local lorry park he can now reverse park in a bay confidently and with a smile on his face.

Steve.

 

[WatsonJohnG]

Hi Steve -its great to chew the fat.

I misunderstood your posting to say 1 and 2 because a typo had 1 and

 

[Lutz]

Sorry Lutz but Diahatsu F70 SWB commercial 1993 2.8turbo diesel does have a tow capacity of 3500Kgs.

It has a gross train of 5500Kgs.

I used two of these for my engineering business after we got rid of a VW LT35 curtain sider which despite having a 2700cc 6 cylinder diesel wouldn't pull the skin off a rice pudding and did a poultry 14 mpg. Also I had to have a tachograph fitted for towing a trailer which was another head ache because the driver didn't have a scooby doo about taking regular and regimented breaks.

The plusses with the Diahatsu were no sign writing and it looked like a "farmers truck" so I got away with murder. It also did 30mpg which caught out my driver who was nicking 4 gallons a day from the VW un-noticed. Soon caught him with the Dai and he gratiously left before I sacked him.

Excellent vehicle if you want one that does what it says on the box ( tow a trailer) if you want comfort then pass on by.

Steve .

Apologies, Steve, I confused the F70 with the Feroza

 

[MichaelT]

i'm a little confused as to what my cars kerbweight is.

It' a Mazda 6 2.0 diesel hatch and on the vin label it says 3560kg(gross train weight)

1960kg(max car weight)

(1)1080g)

(2)980kg

Any ideas?

 

[Lutz]

The one and only accurate way of finding out the kerbweight of the car is to weigh it. In addition to the gross train weight and the max. car weight stated on the VIN plate you may find a figure for the kerbweight in the owner's handbook or brochure but this will only be approximate.

Both the 1080kg and the 980kg that you quote sound more like maximum front and rear axle loads to me. I would expect the kerbweight of a Mazda 6 2.0 diesel hatch to be somewhere in the order of 1500kg.

 

[BernardinTring]

Have the same model X-Trail. Had earlier version and very pleased with performance so changed this last month to a 56 plate. Made same Kerbweight enquiry with Nissan Customer Services to be provided with an Excel Spreadsheet of all their dealers within the UK. Not to be defeated with this tactic I had my accessories weighed, i.e. towbar, stainless steel side steps, boot plate, floor mats. The car was then taken to Bicester Caravans who have a weighbridge. From the gross weight of the vehicle as given by the weighbridge figure I deducted the weight of the accessories and am left with a confident kerbweight figure of 1625KG. Nearly forgot, weighed on bridge with no driver or passengers but with half a tank of diesel.

Hope this helps.

Bernard Lane