You do require a passport for the country you are national of, or a resident of. To travel inside the EU..
Some Countries combine these with a National security pass or Driving licence to make thing easier.
I have eye recognition for UK Passport control, so do not need to show at some airports a passport, which I have two British passport for Business use. But only for another three years.
And I love Sangria.
Hutch. I was there being told by the customs officer, post 14. This was though about 1978. Before Schengen. Also. Did you read the link I put up in post 14, here again? I realise that the situation regarding travel from a non schengen to a schengen country is far from clear, just try to Google it. But certainly to travel from one schengen country to another, Belgium to France for example. Do not require a passport.
Different EU countries require it’s citizens to carry ID at all times. In the 70‘s my German friends could not understand why we didn’t. They also could not understand that we could travel freely to Wales Scotland and Ireland.
There is absolutely no doubt that carrying and using a passport for travel has been the best option and will continue to be even more so next month.
So it’s a moot point really. But technically/legally, my information is, that you do not need a passport to leave the UK and the customs officer told me you don’t need one to enter. (That does not mean automatic entry). Yes, lots of organisations say you do, but are they quoting what is sensible, or what is absolutely legal.
John
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The U.K. passport is our evidence of citizenship for travel. Legally you do need a passport to enter to a Schengen country but the the fact is that it’s rarely if ever checked. But I’ve had our passports checked by French border staff whilst travelling by Euro tunnel and Dover. Those staff were based in Folkestone and Dover. I’ve also had it checked on arriving by air in Germany and the Netherland.
The legality of not using a passport to leave the UK may well be a moot point but try getting on any form of transport without a passport and you will l not get far far. All now require advanced passenger information. All of the airports have U.K. Border Force checks on out bound international passengers as does Eurotunnel from London. Laws can be amended by Statutory Instruments to add new requirements.
But the issue of passports is a digression from the OP which was related to the time allowed within the EU for tourist travel post Brexit.
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We went from Stansted Airport to Germany and you need your passports they were checked at both ends . we went for a long weekend it was great
From what is being said at the moment it may be necessary to delay the implementation to give the various states time to implement any agreement into their own law so we will have to see what happens.
I have not ever suggested that travelling without a passport is easy, sensible, logical etc. Just legally possible in some circumstances. So I would agree with everything you said except sentence 2. Certainly, for an EU member to travel between schengen countries it is NOT a requirement. According to the link I provided.
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If you are an EU national, you do not need to show your national ID card or passport when you are travelling from one border-free Schengen EU country to another.
Even if you don't need a passport for border checks within the Schengen area
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The difficulty is getting evidence that your passport is a ‘legal’ requirement of entry from a non schengen country into a schengen one. I have tried hard to get definitive evidence but without luck. But there is no specific ruling that I can find, but much speculation. I agree that your passport will often be checked when entering France.
Having said that. Some years ago I was the very first to disembark in Dieppe. Very large and empty dock area with little signage. A road of sorts was marked out with cones so I took a chance. Part way along, for some reason I thought I had gone wrong, so turned left between the sparsely spaced cones. Then I changed my mind again and snaked back to the original route. At that time I could glance in the mirror to see a ferry load of cars and outfits snaking with me. After about another 500 metres I came to a shed. There was a seat outside with a sleeping gendarme in it, about 50 metres before we got to him he woke with a start, jumped up and frantically waved us through. I think they have improved a bit since then.
Your first sentence though ”The U.K. passport is our evidence of citizenship for travel.” Is, of course, very correct. But that does not necessarily mean that you can’t travel without one.
John
The reason our UK passports can be checked when entering the Schengen group is that UK isn’t a member of that group. Hence border checks by French officials based in some UK departures zones. Once checked and in Schengen we are free to travel thereafter.I have not ever suggested that travelling without a passport is easy, sensible, logical etc. Just legally possible in some circumstances. So I would agree with everything you said except sentence 2. Certainly, for an EU member to travel between schengen countries it is NOT a requirement. According to the link I provided.
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If you are an EU national, you do not need to show your national ID card or passport when you are travelling from one border-free Schengen EU country to another.
Even if you don't need a passport for border checks within the Schengen area, it is still always highly recommended to take a passport or ID card with you, so you can prove your identity if needed (if stopped by police, boarding a plane, etc.). Schengen EU countries have the possibility of adopting national rules obliging you to hold or carry papers and documents when you are present on their territory.
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The difficulty is getting evidence that your passport is a ‘legal’ requirement of entry from a non schengen country into a schengen one. I have tried hard to get definitive evidence but without luck. But there is no specific ruling that I can find, but much speculation. I agree that your passport will often be checked when entering France.
Having said that. Some years ago I was the very first to disembark in Dieppe. Very large and empty dock area with little signage. A road of sorts was marked out with cones so I took a chance. Part way along, for some reason I thought I had gone wrong, so turned left between the sparsely spaced cones. Then I changed my mind again and snaked back to the original route. At that time I could glance in the mirror to see a ferry load of cars and outfits snaking with me. After about another 500 metres I came to a shed. There was a seat outside with a sleeping gendarme in it, about 50 metres before we got to him he woke with a start, jumped up and frantically waved us through. I think they have improved a bit since then.
Your first sentence though ”The U.K. passport is our evidence of citizenship for travel.” Is, of course, very correct. But that does not necessarily mean that you can’t travel without one.
John
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Absolute. But the point remains, is that the accepted norm and simply understood as what is legally required. As opposed to being absolutely legally required.
At one time I believe you could get a temporary travel document from the post office with a couple of days notice.
I accept that I may be out of date. For example, a few years ago children could travel on their parents passports but that changed.
John
I have not ever suggested that travelling without a passport is easy, sensible, logical etc. Just legally possible in some circumstances. So I would agree with everything you said except sentence 2. Certainly, for an EU member to travel between schengen countries it is NOT a requirement. According to the link I provided.
Quote
If you are an EU national, you do not need to show your national ID card or passport when you are travelling from one border-free Schengen EU country to another.
Even if you don't need a passport for border checks within the Schengen area, it is still always highly recommended to take a passport or ID card with you, so you can prove your identity if needed (if stopped by police, boarding a plane, etc.). Schengen EU countries have the possibility of adopting national rules obliging you to hold or carry papers and documents when you are present on their territory.
The quote that you have provided is not strictly correct. Cyprus and Ireland (and for that matter, Bulgaria, Romania and Croatia) are member states of the EU, but they are not Schengen countries. Consequently, in such cases, passport control on entry does exist, even for EU nationals.
Conversely, Iceland, Norway, Switzerland and a couple of microstates such as San Marino, etc. are not in the EU, but are Schengen countries.
Although the UK (and Ireland) left the Schengen accord, I have never had to produce a passport on entry into the UK. My German ID card was always sufficient.
The Schengen agreement only covers travel requirements within the Schengen area. Non-Schengen countries have to come to their own mutual agreements with each individual Schengen country.
Lutz, I agree, and I did make what you said very clear. But it changes nothing re. my point.
The strict legalities are a gray area. I am embarrassed to say I can’t find definitive proof of what I stated. But, nor can the converse be shown.
John
Wait, just found something to support what I am saying. See this.
See the end of the parra titled Passports. I tried to copy and paste it be for some reason its ot playing ball.
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Previously I held a foreign passport as at the time I was not a British citizen although I was married to one.
To get a visa to enter the Schengen area I had to travel to London and present myself at one of the offices for Schengen which could be France, Germany, Spain etc. embassy. Finger printing etc was required. My request for a 90 day visa would then be processed and my passport posted back to me with the visa if approved. It was free as I was married to a British citizen.
Not sure how they could exempt UK citizens from the same process as it will need to be shown that they are treating all non EU citizens fairly. Quite a few hoops to jump through and it was easier for me to apply for British citizenship and besides who wants to travel to London at least once a year? LOL!
See https://fr.tlscontact.com/gb/lon/page.php?pid=procedure
To get a visa to enter the Schengen area I had to travel to London and present myself at one of the offices for Schengen which could be France, Germany, Spain etc. embassy. Finger printing etc was required. My request for a 90 day visa would then be processed and my passport posted back to me with the visa if approved. It was free as I was married to a British citizen.
Not sure how they could exempt UK citizens from the same process as it will need to be shown that they are treating all non EU citizens fairly. Quite a few hoops to jump through and it was easier for me to apply for British citizenship and besides who wants to travel to London at least once a year? LOL!
See https://fr.tlscontact.com/gb/lon/page.php?pid=procedure
Previously I held a foreign passport as at the time I was not a British citizen although I was married to one.
To get a visa to enter the Schengen area I had to travel to London and present myself at one of the offices for Schengen which could be France, Germany, Spain etc. embassy. Finger printing etc was required. My request for a 90 day visa would then be processed and my passport posted back to me with the visa if approved. It was free as I was married to a British citizen.
Not sure how they could exempt UK citizens from the same process as it will need to be shown that they are treating all non EU citizens fairly. Quite a few hoops to jump through and it was easier for me to apply for British citizenship and besides who wants to travel to London at least once a year? LOL!
See https://fr.tlscontact.com/gb/lon/page.php?pid=procedure
I think your points are part of the present discussions. We will have to wait for the outcome. Talk about last minute.
John
The reason British citizens are exempt from the Schengen hoops are that at present we are still governed by the rules extant when we were full members of the EU and now still governed by the transition arrangements. All we had to do when entering Schengen was show proof of nationality if required. In the absence of ID cards the UK passport is proof of nationality. What other proof would you offer another nations border agents? But the requirements for advanced passenger information really mean that you cannot depart U.K. without that clearance which requires passport details.Previously I held a foreign passport as at the time I was not a British citizen although I was married to one.
To get a visa to enter the Schengen area I had to travel to London and present myself at one of the offices for Schengen which could be France, Germany, Spain etc. embassy. Finger printing etc was required. My request for a 90 day visa would then be processed and my passport posted back to me with the visa if approved. It was free as I was married to a British citizen.
Not sure how they could exempt UK citizens from the same process as it will need to be shown that they are treating all non EU citizens fairly. Quite a few hoops to jump through and it was easier for me to apply for British citizenship and besides who wants to travel to London at least once a year? LOL!
See https://fr.tlscontact.com/gb/lon/page.php?pid=procedure
Fairness doesn’t come into it. Traveller from some non EU countries are treated totally differently to other regions.Have you seen what an Indian or Chinese to go through to holiday here compared to a Canadian?
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Driving licences have been suggested on some sites but I am also informed that they are not acceptable. Same with the Citizen card. I believe that temporary ID can be provided by Embassies.
But as you say, an ID card is acceptable. So that means I am correct. Or to be more precise, I WAS correct.
I did say that the info I had might have been out of date. Getting to the crux of this (rather useless), side topic. The legislation does allow for ID cards. In reality, this will now only apply to temporary ones issued by Embassies as the ID card system we had was scrapped in 2011.
see here.
John
Hi Clive we had relatives who went out to Canada from Uk to stay with there daughter and decided to emigrate they sold up everything in england only stayed in canada for 5 months due health problems they came back to uk . (Because they couldn"t get health insurance it was to high) we was invited go that was some years ago but now i am not allowed to fly that far .
Seems as though we did according to the gov link. Who'd have thunk it.
The Germans I was friends with in the 70's would not have dreamed of going anywhere without up to date ID. The authorities were very strict on that. I do wonder what would have happened to us if we had been asked for ID at some time.
I think the same applies today. When on holiday in Europe we do not think about carrying ID and leave our passports hidden in the van. Has anyone been questioned about their papers? If stopped in the car I would have my driving licence. But my wife would have nothing official except credit/debit cards.
John
Oh yes it was the failed ID scheme that lasted five years and drew a lot of flack. It wasn’t compulsory so really cannot be compared to nations that require all citizens to have and carry a card. Whereas in WW2 you required an ID card as few in those days had passports.
UK National Identity Register.
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One of the main reasons the UK population voted to leave the EU was to regain control of our own destiny and that includes our own borders, and that inevitably means having passport controls in place.
We cannot reasonably expect the EU to continue to offer Brits the same easy access to the continent. if we are going to scrutinise everyone who tries to enter the UK.
Unless the Brexit negotiations do a real blinder, I can only see UK citizens needing to have passports to enter EU countries, just the same as any other foreign country.
We cannot reasonably expect the EU to continue to offer Brits the same easy access to the continent. if we are going to scrutinise everyone who tries to enter the UK.
Unless the Brexit negotiations do a real blinder, I can only see UK citizens needing to have passports to enter EU countries, just the same as any other foreign country.
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Parksy
Moderator
My remark regarding fairness was related to when the UK has left the EU completely which I am led to believe will take between 2 - 5 years to implement.
It is at that point the EU will have to show it is being fair and not discriminating against people from other parts of the world when they enter the EU for whatever reason.
How can it lift restrictions for UK citizens entering the EU, but impose them on other nationalities also from outside the EU? Then they have to consider the impact of UK citizens not visiting the EU for holidays as many EU countries get a lot of income from UK citizens holidaying in their country.
The EU doesn't set entry requirements for foreigners from outside the EU. Each individual country sets its own requirements and they can vary depending on which country the visitor is from. The EU agreements relate only to travel within the EU itself.
Maybe I have misunderstood your post, but I think I have to disagree because as a foreigner I had to approach a representative for the embassy of the country which I was going to enter first for a visa.
Once that country had issued the Schengen visa I could travel to any country within the Schengen zone. BTW if I had chosen France as my port of entry as I had the Schengen visa Germany, Spain and any other country within the Schengen could be my first port of entry.
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