About time!

[Buckman]

It has been a bit unfair up to now, but Pay Per Mile taxes are being proposed for EVs. There is mention that it will also apply to hybrids, but not sure how that will work with the latter? See https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0mxgzpj1dvo

 

[Sam Vimes]

That's been the case in New Zealand for some time and includes deisel cars. You buy a voucher in advance for so many miles. Mileage is checked at the equivalent of MOT time to see you've paid the correct amount.

 

[Buckman]

That's been the case in New Zealand for some time and includes deisel cars. You buy a voucher in advance for so many miles. Mileage is checked at the equivalent of MOT time to see you've paid the correct amount.

I wonder if EVs can be clocked as easily as older cars? What if the car is a new EV and does not need a MOT for 3 years, but the owner sells before the 3 years? Still not sure how it will apply to hybrids?

 

[RogerL]

The fraudsters would have a field day!

There is of course much speculation in the press & media about upcoming tax increases in this month's Budget, most of which won't happen.

 

[otherclive]

I wonder if EVs can be clocked as easily as older cars? What if the car is a new EV and does not need a MOT for 3 years, but the owner sells before the 3 years? Still not sure how it will apply to hybrids?

Wouldn’t it be more applications EV and PHEV. Ordinary hybrids like mine still use petrol so I pay VED plus the various fuel tax and duties.

 

[IanB1485]

Any car odometer can be clocked - it just takes the right software and unfortunately criminals seem to access to such software.

 

[Tobes]

I wonder if EVs can be clocked as easily as older cars? What if the car is a new EV and does not need a MOT for 3 years, but the owner sells before the 3 years? Still not sure how it will apply to hybrids?

I doing think its a question of EVs vs older - its just new cars vs older cars. I have not had a car with a physical odometer for 20 years or more.

I would not worry how it applies to EVs or hybrids at this point. Right now the speculation is about an article in the Telegraph, and a spokesperson from the government saying that lack of fuel duty needs to be fairer for all.

_If_ it's announced at the next budget, I am sure the details will be spelled out. I would hope that the prices for EVs and Plugin-hybrids are similar (PHEV being a bit lower), and regular hybrids are either zero rate or at least lower, for fairness.

If petrol is £1.20 at the pump, today the driver is paying about 73p to HMRC. 52.95p in Duty and 20p in VAT. For a 50mpg car, that works out at 6.57p per mile.
An EV is paying somewhere between 5p and 15p per kWh VAT for public charging which is between 1.6 and 5p per mile for 3 miles per kWh. For home charging its about 1/3p per kWh or about 0.1p per mile.

So if the gov add 3p per mile road pricing, over 10,000 miles with about 1000 of those using public chargers (10%), an EV total would be something like 10,000 * 3p + 9,000 *0.1p + 1000 * 5p - about £359.

A petrol car would be 10,000 * 6.57 =
£657 at 50 mpg or
£821 at 40 mpg
£1,095 at 30 mpg.

Just to round out the picture.

Fuel + tax at 10k miles (£1.20 / L)	30mpg	40mpg	50mpg	EV @ 3miles /kWh 90% home at 7p/kWh 10% away at 75p/kWh
Tax + duty	£1095	£821	£675	£358
Fuel	£705	£529	£405	£400 (£200 + £208)
Total	£1800	£1350	£1080	£758

*Edited to fix the silly mistake

 

[Buckman]

Wouldn’t it be more applications EV and PHEV. Ordinary hybrids like mine still use petrol so I pay VED plus the various fuel tax and duties.

A PHEV also uses fuel. However I am still not sure how they will monitor as it will take years to implement any such Pay by Mile system on EVs, hybrids etc taking into account cars many cars are sold before the first MOT, cars on lease etc. What about cars that may be written off or simply SORN'ed.

 

[otherclive]

A PHEV also uses fuel. However I am still not sure how they will monitor as it will take years to implement any such Pay by Mile system on EVs, hybrids etc taking into account cars many cars are sold before the first MOT, cars on lease etc. What about cars that may be written off or simply SORN'ed.

I know that a PHEV uses fuel but it also uses low cost low vat electric. And in cities could run for weeks without using fuel. Hence my comment.

 

[RogerL]

Wouldn’t it be more applications EV and PHEV. Ordinary hybrids like mine still use petrol so I pay VED plus the various fuel tax and duties.

I'd agree that non-plug-in hybrids shouldn't be penalised as an EV.

Purists would suggest there's an unfair advantage when a PHEV is running on electric but it would be impossible to get that mileage for a pay-per-mile system and a flat-rate VED surcharge would be unfair given the very wide scope of electric ranges available from PHEVs

 

[Buckman]

I know that a PHEV uses fuel but it also uses low cost low vat electric. And in cities could run for weeks without using fuel. Hence my comment.

We will probably be the only country in the world that imposes a tax on a tax that has already been paid? You pay tax on the fuel and you pay tax on the electric consumed.

 

[RogerL]

We will probably be the only country in the world that imposes a tax on a tax that has already been paid? You pay tax on the fuel and you pay tax on the electric consumed.

Plenty of countries impose duty on certain products which then attracts general taxation on top.

 

[Buckman]

Plenty of countries impose duty on certain products which then attracts general taxation on top.

You have the cost of a litre, then duty is added and then VAT is added on top of the duty. I was referring to paying the VAT on the fuel and then having to pay VAT on top of the original VAT if have a hybrid or a PHEV you are being charged per mile. Hopefully I made it a bit clearer.

 

[Tobes]

You have the cost of a litre, then duty is added and then VAT is added on top of the duty. I was referring to paying the VAT on the fuel and then having to pay VAT on top of the original VAT if have a hybrid or a PHEV you are being charged per mile. Hopefully I made it a bit clearer.

Where is the second VAT? I get VAT on fuel (including duty). And there is VAT on electricity. There is no other VAT here is there?

 

[Buckman]

Where is the second VAT? I get VAT on fuel (including duty). And there is VAT on electricity. There is no other VAT here is there?

If they are charging by the mile, a hybrid will have VAT on a litre and then also VAT on the per mile so two VAT elements. I am truly sorry you did not understand what I wrote and apologise for not making it simpler.

However at present we are all making assumptions based on newspaper reports as it will take years to implement if ever! Perhaps time to close this thread before people get hot under the collar over what may be a non event?

 

[RogerL]

If they are charging by the mile, a hybrid will have VAT on a litre and then also VAT on the per mile so two VAT elements. I am truly sorry you did not understand what I wrote and apologise for not making it simpler.

However at present we are all making assumptions based on newspaper reports as it will take years to implement if ever! Perhaps time to close this thread before people get hot under the collar over what may be a non event?

At present a PHEV pays high duty on the petrol/diesel plus 20% VAT on top - but their electric only gets 5% or 20% VAT on top, depending on whether it's domestic or commercial - so the VAT on the electric isn't on top of the duty/VAT on fuel as they don't pay that for the miles they do on electric.

 

[Tobes]

If they are charging by the mile, a hybrid will have VAT on a litre and then also VAT on the per mile so two VAT elements. I am truly sorry you did not understand what I wrote and apologise for not making it simpler.

However at present we are all making assumptions based on newspaper reports as it will take years to implement if ever! Perhaps time to close this thread before people get hot under the collar over what may be a non event?

It's not VAT per mile. It's a pay per mile tax charge. It was your use of the term "VAT" that was confusing. I agree that levying it onto a wet fuel only car just because it has the "hybrid" name would be very unfair, if the intention is to drive exchequer revenue to close the wet fuel duty gap.

Of course - one option would be to apply it to every car at a flat rate, or perhaps a V5C kerb weight related rate. The idea being to continue the persuasion towards cleaner smaller vehicles.

 

[Buckman]

I must admit that I do miss my diesel and petrol vehicle in preference to the current hybrids that we have on our driveway. Knowing what we now know, we would have bought older second hand vehicles. I have an intense dislike to vehicles that tell you how to drive!

 

[otherclive]

We will probably be the only country in the world that imposes a tax on a tax that has already been paid? You pay tax on the fuel and you pay tax on the electric consumed.

Aren’t VAT, council tax, fuel taxes, VED, insurance Premuim tax etc all taxes on income that has been already taxed?
Electric is a lower rate vat than most other taxes. But as Tobes figures show even at the rate floated in the media an EV can still be significantly lower cost in electric than an equivalent ICE costs for fuel.

 

[Tobes]

I must admit that I do miss my diesel and petrol vehicle in preference to the current hybrids that we have on our driveway. Knowing what we now know, we would have bought older second hand vehicles. I have an intense dislike to vehicles that tell you how to drive!

Thats a new car old car thing. Nothing to do with the fuel or drive train.

 

[otherclive]

I must admit that I do miss my diesel and petrol vehicle in preference to the current hybrids that we have on our driveway. Knowing what we now know, we would have bought older second hand vehicles. I have an intense dislike to vehicles that tell you how to drive!

Will there be a chance of a very new Tucson or Yaris coming along soon?

 

[Buckman]

Thats a new car old car thing. Nothing to do with the fuel or drive train.

My thread and I can welcome Fred Drift.

Will there be a chance of a very new Tucson or Yaris coming along soon?

The Yaris is being rejected due to software not working correctly so waiting for the dealer to collect and refund our deposit plus compensation.

 

[Tobes]

My thread and I can welcome Fred Drift.

The drift is fine. It's just your anger at your car telling you how to drive is missplaced if you are blaming the hybrid vs plain petrol or diesel. Old hybrids dont tell you how to drive. Old EVs don't tell you how to drive. New cars of all fuel types do. My old PHEV Volvo had the collision avoidance warnings and lane drift warnings, but you could turn them all off permanently if so desired. My 2021 Polestar also had the option to turn off all the noises and dings and steering assist. If you buy a 2024 petrol car, all of that is turned on and has to be disable every trip, just like your hybrid.

 

[otherclive]

My thread and I can welcome Fred Drift.


The Yaris is being rejected due to software not working correctly so waiting for the dealer to collect and refund our deposit plus compensation.

That’s a good outcome for you and your wife. Hopefully her next car will not give heart stopping moments. 🤞

 

[Buckman]

The drift is fine. It's just your anger at your car telling you how to drive is missplaced if you are blaming the hybrid vs plain petrol or diesel. Old hybrids dont tell you how to drive. Old EVs don't tell you how to drive. New cars of all fuel types do. My old PHEV Volvo had the collision avoidance warnings and lane drift warnings, but you could turn them all off permanently if so desired. My 2021 Polestar also had the option to turn off all the noises and dings and steering assist. If you buy a 2024 petrol car, all of that is turned on and has to be disable every trip, just like your hybrid.

Which is why I referenced an older car without these in my opinion dangerous so called safety additions. No fun when the car decides you are driving too close to the side of the road and jerks the steering wheel towards the right into the face of oncoming traffic. Also pre collision activating unnecessary and unexpectedly. It is very bad in the Yaris as acknowledged by dealer.