American Idiots? Maybe not...

[NigelDonnelly]

I note that someone mentioned Sprite Lite earlier too. That was a very poor attempt at an entry-level van. Essentially a caravan with a loads of bits removed. Exactly like the old Bailey Discovery. Looks like a caravan. Just a really rubbish one. Very unappealling when new although a good used buy, potenitally.

I think of a caravan like a doughnut. A good one is plump, filled with jam and covered in sugar. The worst entry-level caravans are all doughnut and no jam. And someone has licked the sugar off.

A good entry level caravan should be like a Rich Tea biscuit. Not a doughnut. Not trying to be. It's a biscuit. Not easy to compare, but both will stop you starving to death and both are fit for the purpose for which they are designed.

I think entry-level caravans need to be thought about entirely in isolation from other product designs, much like the Venus range from Lunar, which at least feels like an entirely new entry-level product, rather than a posh van with all the good bits left at the factory.

Or a doughnut with no jam.

 

[emmerson]

Nigel, I'm trying to picture you living in a doughnut, with or without the jam! Not a pretty sight!

 

[RogerL]

I can't imagine what Nigel intends from an "entry-level" caravan - I assume cheaper and lighter - but you can't really go smaller as entry-level people are as big as the rest and have the same basic domestic needs.
Stripping out things like entertainment centres, microwaves, ovens, central heating, carpets and reducing fabric quality is about all the manufacturers can do. The chassis and bodyshell need to remain essentially as full-spec caravans, as do the eating, sleeping and washing facilities.
If you try to go too basic then there's little advantage over a tent !!

 

[Martin24]

Nigel, I'm trying to picture you living in a doughnut, with or without the jam! Not a pretty sight!

I'm trying NOT to think about who's licking the sugar off!!!

 

[Martin24]

I have to say Emmerson that I would be very happy to be parked next to a Royale, or indeed anything else of similar quality, a nice safari for example. I could be very tempted into a classic if only they afforded a bit more space, which many of them don't. It seems the family vans of my childhood were about the size of today's two berth. Alas when you're used to the space of a modern twin axle (albeit an entry level van) size does become an issue. Who knows in 20 years time we may still come across something special from the seventies or eighties. A friend who had been in an owners club for thirty odd years did say once on changing his van that it was due to his being the oldest on a recent rally, now that sort of reason for changing a van I do think rather sad.

 

[emmerson]

Martin, I'm generally the oldest van on most caravan sites, and far from being a reason to change the van, it actually makes me rather proud!

Hey, maybe that's inverted snobbery?

 

[colin-yorkshire1]

allthough Nigel's comments may be a little colourful with talk of doughnuts and biscuits, the premiss of a entry level caravan being something completely new and designed with a clean sheet of paper, with old ideas and consept's forgotten is a good one,
someone will do it and have a winner, as caravans have developed over the years something has been lost along the way in striving to make all vans holiday homes on wheels, I cannot believe there is no market for vans that cherish the simpler things in life.
we used to have it but now it's gone, the last van we had "fleetwood colchester" was a full 5berth at almost 15ft (5mtrs) it had plenty of space, 3 long bunks, dinette, cooker with small oven, large fridge, washroom and toilet full length wardrobe and gas heater, and it weighed 18.5 CWT (941kg) I towed it with a talbot alpine 1500. the only thing missing from a modern van was the hot water on tap.
it must be possible to design and build a van with modern methods and materials at that sort of size and weight,
if you think about it, it must be off putting for the would be caravanner going round looking at vans in their polo or focus only to find the vans they can tow are little more than the size of the avarage garden shed. be it well equipped or not.

 

[RogerL]

But surely - anyone who wants an entry-level caravan, ie smaller, lighter, less equipment, simply buys a used one - on that basis manufacturers can never cut the costs down to that level.

 

[Dustydog]

The USA model does nothing for me. I don't like the ribbed ally sides. The British market has at least developed harder wearing one piece sides..
Does anyone know what construction method the yanks use? Is it "conventional".?
Years ago I has an old Ski 4 berth. That was basic to say the least, somewhere to put your head down. We had a portapotti in a toilet tent outside. There was a two burner hob, no oven or grill and an old Electrolux 212 fridge. Cold water was via a foot pump on the floor.
Sorry , but I've done all my basic stuff and now enjoy all the creature comforts of home

 

[JTQ]

Havent most main stream manufactures over the years brought a basic van to the market only to withdraw it soon afterwards.
I just feel if it was selling like hot cakes then dropping it would be the last thing they would have done.
Those buying basic are quite likely buying more for a budget if they were honest? Buying new relative to used is not the answer, I suggest this accounts why there are few new offerings on the market, those after something cheap buy a good secondhand one?

 

[NigelDonnelly]

I don't think it is accurate to say that all manufacturers can do is strip out kit and downgrade fabrics.

The 'clean sheet of paper' comment regards everything being up for grabs.

Late 1980s Sprites had a bespoke chassis with FTF (amongst others) running gear, sandwich walls and pretty much all the equipment was a dealer fit option - even double glazing was an option, (albeit a 'delete' option). Lighting units were off the shelf ones common to trailers and commercial vehicles, there was no front or rear plastic panels to crack or add weight/cost. No carpet. Two fluro tube lights, one in the washroom (which had no toilet as standard)

The Alpine C 4-berth I took to Croatia last year weighed 650kg empty and had an MTPLM of 850kg. It had a fridge, battery and charger, mains install, Porta-Potti and that was pretty much it. It was easy to tow, easy to manourvre and so simple I completed most of the maintenance on my drive way.

Now it could be that the old Sprite was a little too basic for modern tastes, and dealers like stocking vehicles with lots of profit margin so there are things to overcome. That said, a new customer coming to a dealer site and buying a new, basic van will spend a fortune in the accessory shop so the money will be made somewhere...

I give that example because I want to show what used to be done and I can't see that we have lost the ability to build cheap, light vans in large volumes, exactly as CI used to do with Sprite. The industry has however, lost the will to build such products and that is a terrible shame. No doubt someone will step into this sector of the market. Maybe someone attending this show... Chinese Rv Show

 

[NigelDonnelly]

JTQ

True that manufacturers have withdrawn cheaper models but there has been nothing out there for years to serve that sector of the market. It will take time to find these customers as they have been ignored for years. They are not experienced caravanners. They are tent campers looking for an upgrade or families who are tired of being fleeced for hotel holidays. It will take time, marketing to them won't be cheap but the rewards could be great...

And secondhand models are all plush fixed-bed tourers as that is all that has been sold for years!

 

[colin-yorkshire1]

sorry guys but you seem to be missing the point!
Nigel is spot on in my view.
why does entry level have to mean Basic! ie cold water and a loo outside, why does lighter have to mean smaller! why does cheaper have to mean second hand! and what does the new vanner look for in 10/12 years time when the only second hand models around are unicorns and olympus, yet cars will be lighter and hybreds or electric,
the reason most entry level vans are withdrawn is because they look like other vans with all the bits left out a modern exterior with a 1970 interior,
basic should not mean spartan, wheres the customer input in van design and options simply it's not there, they build and supply we buy whats on offer if whats offered is not what's wanted we dont buy and the model is withdrawn,
it should be possible with modern techniques to build to a lighter bigger van with options so the customer gets what they want
and then they would sell.
the tunnel vison approach to van design is whats wrong no innovation exept how toget as much into as little space as possible,
a bit like the henry ford approach when quoted about the tin lizzy "you can have it in any colour you want as long as it's black"

 

[Parksy]

JTQ

True that manufacturers have withdrawn cheaper models but there has been nothing out there for years to serve that sector of the market. It will take time to find these customers as they have been ignored for years. They are not experienced caravanners. They are tent campers looking for an upgrade or families who are tired of being fleeced for hotel holidays. It will take time, marketing to them won't be cheap but the rewards could be great...

And secondhand models are all plush fixed-bed tourers as that is all that has been sold for years!
http://www.freedomcaravans.com/caravans-c5.html

http://www.freedomcaravans.com/caravans-c5.html
Freedom Caravans which are UK distributors for French built Steckerman and Caravelair products offer a range of basic lightweight no frills tourers which ought to suit the 'tent upgrader' customer profile as described by Nigel.
Most of the items supplied as standard in UK entry level tourers like the Bailey Orion are available as cost options and there is a wide choice of layouts throughout the ranges.
Some Freedom models offer buyers a choice of furnishing on standard floor plans and all three ranges are low cost and comparatively lightweight.
I'm not sure how effective Freedom's marketing stategy is but they may be missing a trick or two and could aim their strategy at tenters who may consider upgrading. Perhaps they ought to persuade Nigel to feature their models for the magazine live in test article so that potential buyers would be made aware that these budget lightweight tourers exist.

 

[colin-yorkshire1]

hi Parksy,
looking at the links above it may seem they have something there until one looks a little deeper I notice that allthough the price is cheaper little is different from current models for example the caravelair 490 weighs in at 1500kg mam 1350kg MIRO
when it is compared to the new bailey unicorn between 1350 kg to 1500kg MAM there is nothing to choose from exept the £7k difference in price and a oven.
the smallest one at 750kg MAM is only 10ft or 3.1mtr and basically very little different from the smallest venus from swift.
in all not a ground breaking consept afterall.

 

[Parksy]

Hi Colin
Freedom, Steckerman and Carvelair have been around for years so I wasn't trying to claim that these caravans represent a new concept.
As you have seen, the biggest difference between these basic 'starter' caravans and the more popular entry level models from market leaders here is the price.
The Steckerman Starlett 390CP is a 4 berth with a MIRO of 765Kg, an all up fully loaded maximum weight is given as 900Kg and a price tag of £8400 with no part exchange.
This caravan may not suit you or me, we are already experienced tourer owners and we've probably bought very basic cold water / no toilet caravans in the past (I know I have) and are now prepared to pay a bit more for a better overall contemporary finish and more comprehensive fixtures and fittings but I'd suggest that for a young family thinking of upgrading from a tent who have a smallish towcar these models would be a first step on the new ownership ladder.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I do think Nigels headline was designed to make us prick up our ears, but I don't subscribe to the opinion that Americans are idiots. After all they managed to put a CL on the moon using ultra light caravans made out of tin foil, with full domestic services, and a rocket powered caravan mover! beat that CI!

A little more seriously through, caravans in one form or another are being manufactured all over the world. The fact that they are different in some major and many minor ways is testament to the fact that regulations, climatic conditions, Customer expectations and usage vary across the world, and it means products designed for one region may not be suitable for another.

In particular looking at the UK vs USA a major difference factor are the tow vehicles. In the UK we struggle with vehicles that are usually less than 3 Litres engine capacity, where as in the USA (and Canada) most families now use a powerful pick up of 45 or even 6 Litre capacity and oodles of torque. Consequently whilst UK domestic caravans are generally limited to less that 2 Tonnes MTPLM, our cousins across the pond have trailer caravans of up to 4 Tonnes and fifth wheel vans of up to 6 Tonnes.

In the UK and most of the EU there is a need to develop lightweight caravan construction techniques, which are probably also more costly than the wood frame and sheet panel construction typically used in the US. Other weight issues surround the appliances, the US tend to use domestic grade products, where as over here we have lightweight appliances.

Then there is the issue of how caravans are used. Even with in the EU there are significant differences, for example it has already been mentioned that many continental caravanners use their vans primarily as a dormitory, making use of site facilities for most meals etc. Here in the UK we tend to try and do everything inc. the Sunday roast, so again what goes into a caravan largely depend on the region its being sold to.

On the question of the specification and content of caravans being consumer led, I'm not sure. In the UK there used to be around 20 significant caravan manufacturers. To attract sales, the manufactures tried to load caravans with more and more gadgets. We have now come to expect all these gadgets so our caravans may look over specified compared some other market areas. This has of course also added weight to our vans. Do we need all these gadgets, well that's a personal matter, but it means we find it difficult to sell our products abroad, and like wise over seas manufactures may find it too expensive to kit out a few caravans for UK sales, not to mention the costs of swapping the door to the LH side to suit our roads.

Is there a market for a basic caravan in the UK, the answer is yes, (witnessed by Freedom etc) but the more telling question is how many basic caravans does the UK need?, and I suspect the market research has showed it not many which is why freedom has not rocketed to the top of the sales leagues

American caravans will suit Americans, I think the UK tastes have been spoilt by the over indulgence with tech, bells and whistles in most UK caravans.

 

[colin-yorkshire1]

hi, Yes John all that may be true and I have no doubt that caravan designers and builders, have the accountants looking over their shoulders, and therefore only tinker about around the edges, with conventional designs making improvements here and there.
there is a market for a lighter van though not just for the converted tenters but seaoned carvanners wanting something different comfortable yet light enough to take advantage of the new generation of vehicles that it is possible to tow with.
I suspect it is why Bailey went forwards with alutech to reduce weight.
but there is a need however for a radical rethink in van design, a sort of "Alec Issigonis" moment that will change the way we see caravans and move forwards, whether this is possible in todays economic climate remain to be seen but if it does happen the manufacturer who does it would have a undoubted winner.

 

[NigelDonnelly]

'Is there a market for a basic caravan in the UK, the answer is yes, (witnessed by Freedom etc) but the more telling question is how many basic caravans does the UK need?, and I suspect the market research has showed it not many which is why freedom has not rocketed to the top of the sales leagues'

Market research! I'm sad to say that the majority of market research in the UK involves looking at what is selling and then making more of them. The market for caravans for people who do not yet own one is not understood in any way, shape or form. The Freedom is a niche product which, with better marketing could do better but they are a little bit...plain looking (being diplomatic!)

Lots of great comment on here though. Some great points being made

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Colin,

Yes there is a need for, lighter caravans, and I too thing it might need an Alec Issigonis to set the cat among the pigeons in terms of clever mini type packaging and construction.

I also agree there will be some caravanners - probably those who remember the 1960's and 1970's models that were functional if not luxurious who may hanker after more basic models.

Hello Nigel,

I cannot believe manufacturers have not commissioned market research into how to encourage new people to caravanning, I think it is more likely they see the cost of creating suitable products to be disproportionate to the increase in numbers it might produce.

With regard to Freedom, of course these are actually a foreign design, and that probably explains their idiosyncrasies. The fact the manufacture has not invested in proper UK mods suggests they don't see a big enough market prospect.

 

[BabyBoomer47]

I would agree with Nigel's comments about the US Caravans, we have been to US several times and looked at Motorhomes and Caravans in Dealers just out of intrest and whilst the Motorhomes might look good the caravans are just as he says, plainly built and backwards in terms of European construction etc. One possibility is how low priced the market is over there, do not forget the US cars are many times lower in cost new than ours and they have "very loose" labour laws and wage rates, talking to Americans the employers are very 19th century in attitude, take it or leave it as someone else will if you do not. One thing that suprised us was not only the flimsey construction but the windows appeared to be little more than pain glass and cooking equipment not much more than a couple of gas rings.

 

[Raywood]

I do have my doubts that the market for very basic caravans is of worthwhile size given that the Sprite Lite was dropped after one year presumably because of poor sales. If it had sold it would still be there. At the Glasgow show the only basic model being pushed was the Sprite with one Venus and no Xplores as far as I could see which may mean the cheaper ones are not selling well or the manufacturers were promoting the more costly models.
As far as I can see most new caravanners buy second hand so the cheaper lighter ranges are not for them so not sure who the basic ones are aimed at.
The Alu tech and SoLID systems while useful are simply tinkering with the weight problem and a radical rethink in design would be needed to get a serious reduction in weight but in the current financial climate I do not see anyone spending the money involved.