B+E licence MAM question

[ian.foxall]

Hi Forum,

Utter newbie here. Really excited to become part of the caravan community, but I’m so confused about weights!! I’m working my way through everything, but I think I’ve got an issue with my licence v MAM and need sone help please!

I’ll try and keep this short…
Me - full licence dated Dec’99. BE added 16 Dec’21.
Car - 2016 A4 (early B9), 2.0 TDI auto avant 190bhp.
(Desired) Van - Elddis Affinity 574, 2023ish.

So as I understand it:
I can ‘only’ tow a MAM of 3500kg, due to my licence categories/dates.
My car and (desired) van MAM is 3,612kg. So that’s illegal 🙁

The way I read it, no matter how I slice it, I’ll only be able to tow small vans. If I get a lighter tow car, I’ve got more MAM room, but my MTPLM comes down as the tow car can’t cope.

I’ve looked and looked and because of the decision that the DVLA took dated 16 Dec’21, there’s no way to increase the MAM I can tow, unless I take lorry/bus tests?

So I guess my question is, am I right? There’s no my my licence will let me tow a van that’s of the size we need for our family?
Hoping I’m wrong and someone can put me straight!!

 

[RogerL]

You're ok - you can drive a vehicle up to 3,500 kg towing a trailer of up to 3,500 kg - theoretically an outfit up to 7,000 kg.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Roger is correct, though do remember your licence only tells you what you are entitled to drive, it does not tell you what your car can tow. You still have to follow the cars specifications and legal limits.

 

[Woodentop]

Further to what RogerL says above, HMG did away with the extra E test to become B+E during the pandemic as the queue for normal driving tests was getting out of hand.
However you need to watch the gross train weight (GTW) which is the larger of the two numbers at the top of your vehicle weight plate. Subtract the smaller number adjacent and it will show the maximum weight you can tow with that vehicle.
The MTPLM on the side of your van near the door may not actually be the 'real' MTPLM - on a modern van that will be on a second (usually metal) plate in the gas locker. Manufacturers put a lower MTPLM on the outside so that people will tow them with less powerful vehicles. The difference between the outside figure and that in the gas locker is the amount by which the caravan can be uprated and is usually the maximum load the axle will take. There is a label on the axle usually on the back or underneath and towards the nearside of the vehicle.

 

[ian.foxall]

Thanks for the reply guys. Some great advice and it’s good to have it confirmed as it’s pretty much as I thought.

@RogerL I did read the DVLA definition in that way, so thanks for simplifying it!

The reason I started looking at this is down to TowCheck’s report which I’ve hopefully attached. So, they’re wrong?

 

[Buckman]

The car can legally tow up to 1500kg. The plated weight of the 575 is 20kg less than 1500kg however the approximate MIRO of the car is 40kg less than 1500kg. You would be legal.

 

[Buckman]

Thanks for the reply guys. Some great advice and it’s good to have it confirmed as it’s pretty much as I thought.

@RogerL I did read the DVLA definition in that way, so thanks for simplifying it!

The reason I started looking at this is down to TowCheck’s report which I’ve hopefully attached. So, they’re wrong?View attachment 5732

The figures for the caravan are incorrect. These are the figures off the Elddis website.

Plated M.T.P.L.M: 1480kgs / 29.13cwt

Maximum M.T.P.L.M: 1550kgs / 30.51cwt

The weights for the car could also be wrong as they are different to my source with indicates that the maximum towing weight is 1500kg and not 1700kg. Your VIN plate with maximum axle loads etc are the true values.

 

[ProfJohnL]

If you look at the top section of the form where it says Driving Licence Category, You have it as "B". Based on the criteria of cat B the calculation is correct, the combined MAM (MTPLM + GVW) exceeds 3500kg. so the form is correct.

Where you have gone wrong is that in Dec 21 the Government changed the category B licences issued since 1997 to automatically include "Be" and whilst you present licence card may only show Cat B your records will have been updated to report "Be".

If you were to rerun the suitability test but using " Be" as your licence it should report it all as legal.

A word of warning, whilst the UK records will automatically show you as having Be, if you travel abroad, the florigen authorities only rely on what's your licence card, so If you intend to travel abroad apply to the DVSA to replace your card for one with the updated categories.

 

[ian.foxall]

Thanks again guys, very much appreciated.

If you look at the top section of the form where it says Driving Licence Category, You have it as "B". Based on the criteria of cat B the calculation is correct, the combined MAM (MTPLM + GVW) exceeds 3500kg. so the form is correct.

Where you have gone wrong is that in Dec 21 the Government changed the category B licences issued since 1997 to automatically include "Be" and whilst you present licence card may only show Cat B your records will have been updated to report "Be".

If you were to rerun the suitability test but using " Be" as your licence it should report it all as legal.

A word of warning, whilst the UK records will automatically show you as having Be, if you travel abroad, the florigen authorities only rely on what's your licence card, so If you intend to travel abroad apply to the DVSA to replace your card for one with the updated categories.

I didn’t actually specify anything during the input, the question was simply “when did you pass your test - pre/post 1997”. I’ve emailed them anyways, just to check it all out.

My vehicle weight plate shows 2145kg and 3925kg as top two, so the max MTPLM I can tow is 1780kg, as I understand it.
So the max MTPLM of 1550kg is slightly over the 85% guideline.
So I believe I’m safe and legal.

Thanks again guys, so much appreciated.

 

[otherclive]

Yes the 85% is only a guideline and since it came into being cars suspensions have improved significantly and I’d assume your new caravan will have ATC which is a very useful secondary safety system.

 

[Hutch]

Yes the 85% is only a guideline and since it came into being cars suspensions have improved significantly and I’d assume your new caravan will have ATC which is a very useful secondary safety system.

Fully agree with OC, this 85% is a guidance from decades ago.
Imagine a family of 4 with a Ford prefect, no more room in the car so everything loaded into the caravan. That has never been serviced, with a towbar made by a Blacksmith, towing a caravan for the first time. As opposed to yourself with knowledge of the actual power and braking of your car and caravan.
Go with what you feel comfortable with. But be safe. And enjoy caravanning.

 

[Lutz]

So the max MTPLM of 1550kg is slightly over the 85% guideline.

The Towcheck report that you posted quotes a kerbweight for your Audi A4 of 1530kg. So, if the MTPLM of the caravan is 1550kg the weight ratio is 101%, not "slightly over 85%" as you say.

 

[ian.foxall]

The Towcheck report that you posted quotes a kerbweight for your Audi A4 of 1530kg. So, if the MTPLM of the caravan is 1550kg the weight ratio is 101%, not "slightly over 85%" as you say.

This is also true. So now I’m confused again!!

The car can tow what’s on the VIN Weight Plate; 2145kg and 3925kg as top two, so the max tow weight is 1780kg.
But, there’s also kerbweight of car at 1530kg.
And then the 85% guidance.

So what do I go with?!
Is the Weight Plate figure the max the car can handle, but the kerbweight is what the driver can handle?
Or something else?!

 

[ProfJohnL]

For legality you MUST observe the weight plate data. Your licence is not the limiting factor as you automatically have Cat. Be now.

For sensibility, especially if you are new to towing caravans it is advisable to keep below the 85% advisory weight ratio i.e. Caravans MTPLM divided by Cars KerbWeight all multiplied by 100 to give a percentage figure.

For Safety, I advise you to consider booking a a caravan towing course with one of the clubs, which will not only guide you through towing a caravan but various other features such as loading and driving and pitching,

 

[otherclive]

This is also true. So now I’m confused again!!

The car can tow what’s on the VIN Weight Plate; 2145kg and 3925kg as top two, so the max tow weight is 1780kg.
But, there’s also kerbweight of car at 1530kg.
And then the 85% guidance.

So what do I go with?!
Is the Weight Plate figure the max the car can handle, but the kerbweight is what the driver can handle?
Or something else?!

It’s not unusual for cars to have a makers towing limit at over 100% of the kerbweight. I’ve had a Sorento that could legally tow 3500 kg but its kerbweight was around two tonnes. My Disco 2 and Pajero were similar.
But with those cars if towing at 3500 kg I’d probably be in low range gearbox and going slowly. Not bowling along the M5 to Cornwall.
You are legally bound by the cars VIN plate data. Although a car may have a towing limit above 100% of kerbweight the 85% guide reflects the fact that caravans tow very differently compared to a folding. camper, or boat trailer.

 

[ian.foxall]

Thanks again guys, very much appreciated.
I’ve digested all the info you’ve shared with me and learnt sone great info.
I’m definitely going on a towing course!

I’ve also checked my logbook, and the kerbweight is listed as 1605kg, so not close to anything I’ve/we’ve found on the internet!
So, that does get me closer to the 85% guideline!
Also, the MIRO of the van is 1329kg, giving me a payload of 221kg so I’ll make sure that we stay way under that as well, to get me closer to the 85%.

Thanks again guys. Very much appreciated.

 

[otherclive]

Thanks again guys, very much appreciated.
I’ve digested all the info you’ve shared with me and learnt sone great info.
I’m definitely going on a towing course!

I’ve also checked my logbook, and the kerbweight is listed as 1605kg, so not close to anything I’ve/we’ve found on the internet!
So, that does get me closer to the 85% guideline!
Also, the MIRO of the van is 1329kg, giving me a payload of 221kg so I’ll make sure that we stay way under that as well, to get me closer to the 85%.

Thanks again guys. Very much appreciated.

That sounds a useful payload but you Will surprised how quickly it can be used up. Battery 23kg, mover 35kg, second gas bottle if required 14kg (all approx). Weigh everything that goes into the van. When you think you have it fully loaded weighing on a public weighbridge can be useful.

Enjoy your touring.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I agree that when you think you are fully loaded, using a weighbridge is a sensible reality check.

If it ever comes to being stopped for a weight check (and despite the majority of caravanners never do get stopped) The authorities will weigh the outfit and compare the results to the data plates on the car and caravan, so if your weighbridge shows any excesses don't leave it chance take them seriously and make appropriate adjustments.

 

[Lutz]

Thanks again guys, very much appreciated.
I’ve digested all the info you’ve shared with me and learnt sone great info.
I’m definitely going on a towing course!

I’ve also checked my logbook, and the kerbweight is listed as 1605kg, so not close to anything I’ve/we’ve found on the internet!
So, that does get me closer to the 85% guideline!
Also, the MIRO of the van is 1329kg, giving me a payload of 221kg so I’ll make sure that we stay way under that as well, to get me closer to the 85%.

Thanks again guys. Very much appreciated.

The logbook gives details of "mass in service" which is not the same as kerbweight. Kerbweight is almost invariably greater than mass in service (also known as mass in running order, MIRO) so if you use the logbook figure you will always be on the safe side. As kerbweight is not documented anywhere you would need to have the car put on a weighbridge if you want to be really accurate but for all intents and purposes, mass in service will do.
Just a note on the side as an example. The manufacturer quotes a mass in running order of my car that is 80kg less than the actual weight quoted in its Certificate of Conformity.