Bailey of Bristol, customer loyalty.

[Flighty]

I am writing this as a result of a massive lack of customer support from what I believed was a reputable manufacturer. I owned a Bailey Pageant series 5 Auvergne. This was a 2006 model which I looked after like it was my baby, so much so that every time it went back for service it was described as MINT.
I stored the caravan inside up until it was 6 years old, which was also the expiry of the water ingress warranty. The following years service revealed it to have 60% damp in the front and over 20% in the back.
I had 3 independent assessments of the damp and all said it had to be down to manufacturers error as there was no sign of where it was getting in. I wrote to the Managing director Nick Howard with all my service history and printout outs asking what they as a company could do to assist me given that I had complied with all the manufacturer servicing guidelines.
My reply back was not just disappointing but also patronising telling me that my van was damp. Never the less Bailey have refused to assist with the cost of the repair.
Just a warning to any prospective bailey buyers. Don't expect anything back in return from them. I will to be buying bailey evere again nor will I store a caravan indoors when it is within the manufacturers warranty period.

 

[Damian]

Whilst I have some sympathy with your situation, the way you have described the way you looked after it until 6 years old (ie under cover) what made you then not do that?
Secondly, I can only assume that you never had the van out in the rain at any time?

The reason I say this is that there are wellknown problems with the 5 series vans, incuding yours, which are :
1. Roof Strap, front and rear, have given problems with water ingress.
2. Front and back panels, which have had splits in them at the top allowing water to enter the van.

If you have had the van out in all weathers, then without doubt if you had problems in those areas it would have made the van damp and that should have been picked up by your service agent, who should have known about the ongoing problems and taken extra care and inspection of the problem areas.

As you say the van is out of its 6 year warranty period I can only wonder what you really expected Bailey to do?
You knew there was a 6 year warranty, and that had expired.

To get readings like yours is not a sudden happening, it HAS been leaking prior to the last year but has not been picked up.

 

[Flighty]

I have read your comments. To clarify:
I took the caravan out of indoor storage as the facility had closed down.
I only used the caravan in the summer months and rarely went out in the wet, but we are talking about UK weather.
I was aware of the front and rear panels which I regularly checked and I can report no splits and neither can the 3 independant approved assessors who I supplied their details to Bailey. Not sure on roof straps. There are no visible areas anywhere where water is entering the caravan.
I only hoped for some form of acceptance that there was a fault with the van's sealents and maybe some financial assistance with the repair, even if this was the supply of the parts only, which would be approximately £500 retail. The labour is the big cost.
I can prove through service records and damp readings that the previous 6 years services NEVER revealed anymore than 12% damp throughout the caravan. If there were any areas overlooked by the approved service agent it cannot be my fault, however the paperwork appears to be very very thorough.
I find it bizarre, unnerving and rather mysterious that the very first service of this cherished caravan out of warranty reveals an extremely wet caravan. Call me suspicious. There is something Bailey are not addressing or willing to accept responsibility for.....
All documents were supplied to Bailey. Their reply was extremely condescending and we waited 2 weeks for correspondence.
I feel very strongly that I've been treated very poorly by Bailey of Bristol and our issues have been 'swept under the carpet' and not addressed at all.
In a nutshell , we have evidence that the caravan was dry for the 6 years it was stored inside but the first year it was stored outside (and, yes, out of warranty) it has massive damp issues which were no fault of ours. Bailey wash their hands of you once your warranty has expired regardless of the problem and I feel your loyal readers and subscribers - of which I am one - need to be forewarned.
Kind regards.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Flighty,

I too have sympathy with your situation. What I have to tell you is of no direct help to you but it will help to explain your situation.

I assume you purchased your caravan new, in which case as part of that process you will have signed the Manufactures Guarantee documentation.

Manufacturers are not legally obliged to offer a guarantee, but most do. The fact there is no statutory framework for manufacturers guarantees means the manufacture can set out almost any conditions they like concerning their liability. and the customers obligation. These are legally binding contracts with terms and conditions.

Consider it to be like a Motor insurance policy, it runs between specific dates. If you try to make a claim for an incident that occurs outside of those dates, the insurer has no obligation to you and will not cover the claim.

To pursue it seems you may need to consider suing the manufacture. But on what grounds? Let me first say that you must seek professional legal advice but the following points may help.

Being a civil matter You need to show that the probability was the fault leading the condition was present before the expiry of the guarantee period. This will be particularly difficult as by your own admission the caravan was serviced and inspected in accordance with the terms of the guarantee and at those times no fault or damage was discovered. So as a consequence you would need to show that servicing and inspections were either not carried out correctly or the methods prescribed were inadequate. You would also have to show that your dry storage did not constitute unusual usage which may have contributed to the occurrence of the fault or to the masking of any symptoms.

To be honest I think attempting such a ploy would cost a lot in professional engineering reports, legal fees, with a very slim chance of success, and even then in civil cases costs are not always awarded.

I am fairly certain that it will be quicker and far cheaper to put this incident down to experience and arrange to have the caravan repaired at your own expense.

 

[Parksy]

I'm sorry that you have serious damp issues with your caravan Paul.
I should imagine that most users of this forum are under no illusion about the standards of after sales service, damp issues with caravans and the (alleged) off hand dismissal of complaints by many UK caravan manufacturers who reportedly continue to churn out products that are less than perfect.

A warranty is offered by a caravan manufacturer voluntarily, as an incentive for you to buy their product and to use their dealer network for regular servicing at scheduled intervals.

What you should bear in mind however is that providing certain conditions are met, i.e. that you bought your caravan from a recognised caravan dealership and took reasonable steps to maintain your caravan in good condition through the aforementioned servicing, you also have statutory rights which are unaffected by any manufacturers guarantee or warranty.

These rights are enshrined in the Sale of Goods Act (Click Here for a brief overview) and basically the Act is a law which offers a chance for a dissatisfied customer to claim some form of redress if it is proven that goods or services supplied by a commercial business are faulty or not fit for purpose.
Bailey Caravans would not be particularly interested in offering assistance at this stage because you did not buy your caravan from them.
Although your caravan was manufactured by Bailey, presumably you bought it from a caravan dealer and it is this dealership who you need to seek redress from.
A caravan costing thousands of pounds should reasonably be expected to last for more than six years if not damaged or neglected, so your first step has to be to seek advice from your local Trading Standards bureaux.
Take their advice, and I'm sure that fellow forum members will also be able to offer advice to you with regard to getting some compensation toward your caravan repair if you feel that you have a good case after contacting Trading Standards.
To prove that the water ingress was not due to damage or neglect on your part you will eventually have to enlist the services of a caravan engineer to provide an independent report, and maybe a solicitor or legal representative if the matter goes to court but your claim has to be against the dealer who supplied and serviced your caravan and not against Bailey Caravans who manufactured it.
Let us know how this matter progresses please Paul.

 

[Flighty]

Thank you very much for the advice.
I will make a decision whether or not to pursue the matter, live with the damp or sell the caravan on as a damp project. Sadly all options bar living with the damp will cost me several thousands I suspect.
The dealer who supplied and serviced the caravan has already examined it and said its beyond repair.
Through my frustration and anger having spent almost £13000 on the purchase,maybe over £2000 on servicing during my ownership plus storage fees i expect more than 7 yrs use.
I own a 30 yr old car and this doesn't cost me anything like this and seems to only get better with age.
I want to make readers aware that storing new caravans indoors unless you can be sure you can keep it indoors throughout your ownership isn't giving the sealants chance to demonstrate they are upto the job. I had never considered this before. I just enjoyed the fact I could wash my caravan put it away and return to a sparkling caravan.

 

[Flighty]

I will keep you updated.

 

[Dustydog]

Hi Flighty
I'm very sorry to hear of your problem.
I've had a number of Bailey's including a series 5 Pageant Vendee. Mine was ok but my friend's required both front and rear panel replacements within 3 years.
I understand there was a manufacturing problem whereby some of the Pageant panels were overstressed leading to future cracking.
I assume your damp problems are caused by cracked panels??
Can any one of the three engineers you have instructed be more definitive on causation?
Even at this late stage if you can demonstrate an inherent latent defect existed at the time of manufacture or sale you may have a stronger case.
Legally the Sale of Goods Act usually applies to items of 6 or less years old.
Whilst you have complied with your Bailey water ingress guarantee regarding servicing etc, the guarantee is only for a 6 year period.
Whilst I sympathise with your predicament I can't help but feel you are now time barred from seeking any redress. Have you spoken to the supplying dealer to see if he will "share" the remedial costs with you?
Whilst no consolation to you this sad story proves the point that a caravan is best stored outside and used often. Hopefully then any latent problems will manifest themselves before expiry of the guarantee.
May I suggest you obtain some alternative quotations for repairs which may not be as expensive as you think.
Where abouts are you? Some of us may know of a good local caravan repair shop who may be able to help you. I have two up my sleeve.

 

[Surfer]

Your issue is with the person servicing your caravan and not Bailey. Itseems that the servicing was nto doen properly. Do you have copies of the damp tests?

 

[Flighty]

I am in the Lancashire area. There are no cracks in the front or rear panels. The engineers believe it is getting in through the awning rail seal.
In response to the service reports, I have the reports which are detailed and show no damp, so I believe my complaint isn't with the servicing dealer but the manufacturer.
I also accept the 6year warranty has ended, but I somehow have to demonstrate that if I had of stored the van outside from day one this ingress would have occurred during the warranty period.
I appreciate the help and advice I am getting on this subject.

 

[Dustydog]

Hi Paul
Prof John sums it up in a nutshell
"Sadly I believe trying to prove to the courts satisfaction that manufacture or the dealer is responsible will prove very costly, and take a considerable time with no guarantees of success".
If the water ingress is caused by a failed awning rail seal then I would not expect the repair to be too much. Certainly it is hard to understand why you think it is write off??
In many parts of the Law timescales for bringing claims etc are governed by the Statute of Limitation Act. Broadly this means a line has to be drawn at some time as here.
As the damage appears very recent the chances of any long term wood rot are minimal so hopefully a reasonably priced repair can be achieved.
maybe someon in Lancashire knows of a goodcaravn body shop who can help you out??

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Paul,

In my earlier reply I deliberately did not expand on your statutory rights that Parksy identifies because as Dusty points out the act only applies to products of less than 6 years of age from the date of purchase.

Whilst the seller is responsible under soga, their liability effectively diminishes to zero as the product ages such that at 6 years it the courts are likely to reject a claim simply due to the age of the product.

For that reason I suggested considering looking at the manufacturers responsibilities enshrined in their manufacturers guarantee. If their prescribed methods for dealers to carry out inspections are inadequate to detect the fault you seem to have, or whether the dealer did not carry out the inspections to the standard required by the manufacture, you may have a claim. But the real difficulty is gathering the evidence to prove one or both points. You must also be warned that the defendants will have plenty of ammo in their defense, including the possibility that your method of storage is not normal usage and may have potentially caused the fault and then masked any evidence of it by preventing rain from exploring the leak paths.

Sadly I believe trying to prove to the courts satisfaction that manufacture or the dealer is responsible will prove very costly, and take a considerable time with no guarantees of success.

 

[WoodlandsCamper]

...... The engineers believe it is getting in through the awning rail seal. ......

Which side? If the near side then you can be accused of over-tightening the awning frame and canvas even if you have never used an awning. If you haven't used an awning how do you prove you haven't?

 

[Parksy]

Hello Paul,

In my earlier reply I deliberately did not expand on your statutory rights that Parksy identifies because as Dusty points out the act only applies to products of less than 6 years of age from the date of purchase.

Whilst the seller is responsible under soga, their liability effectively diminishes to zero as the product ages such that at 6 years it the courts are likely to reject a claim simply due to the age of the product.

For that reason I suggested considering looking at the manufacturers responsibilities enshrined in their manufacturers guarantee. If their prescribed methods for dealers to carry out inspections are inadequate to detect the fault you seem to have, or whether the dealer did not carry out the inspections to the standard required by the manufacture, you may have a claim. But the real difficulty is gathering the evidence to prove one or both points. You must also be warned that the defendants will have plenty of ammo in their defense, including the possibility that your method of storage is not normal usage and may have potentially caused the fault and then masked any evidence of it by preventing rain from exploring the leak paths.

Sadly I believe trying to prove to the courts satisfaction that manufacture or the dealer is responsible will prove very costly, and take a considerable time with no guarantees of success.

I wasn't aware of the six year limitation for the SOGA, but I did advise Paul to speak to Trading Standards who would provide better advice than I could give on the prospect of obtaining some redress.
I wouldn't have thought that an awning rail re-seal was that big a job, it shouldn't mean that a caravan is written off. There are various posts from the past which deal with diy repairs to caravans affected by water ingress and a competent approved service engineer would easily remedy the problem.

 

[Damian]

Having read the ongoing replies and the more information that the OP has given, I have some concerns about what he has been told and by whom.
Of all the Series 5 water ingress cases they have all been because of roof straps or cracked front /back panels.
There has not been a single one due to awning rails leaking.
For the supplying dealer to say it is a write off is simply not accurate, as it CAN be repaired, as many with higher damp readings have been.

Without seeing the actual damp reports and the van I am very suspicious of how the damp checks were done and the prognosis.
If the damp is in the top front or rear corners then it is the roofstrap which is the cause which simply needs removing, cleaning and resealing with exra sealant at the ends.
If the damp extends to the floor then it is the relevant panel which requires removal and replacement.
With both types of repair the van needs drying out as part of the repair process and probably replacing various wall boarding.

I realise that the OP has said that the inspection and damp reports appear very detailed, but what was actually done and how it is recorded are two different things.

 

[Beachball]

Hi Paul We also have a 2008 Bailey Discovery Mercury Series 5 Caravan and it had it 5th Service this last week but ours passed with flying colours no Damp but we brought a Protec Cover and through the winter months and we put special salt pots in every 8 weeks and our van is like new .
I am sorry you had no such luck with yours but not all Bailey"s are the same i hope something can be done with yours ?

 

[otherclive]

Our 2005 Series 5 had both front and rear panels replaced and new roof straps too in years 2 and 3 respectively. Our dealer picked up the problem during annual services but the level of damp damage caused was negligible. Since then no further problems. As regarding any redress through legal action via the supplying dealer not a chance just wasting your time and money. Also I doubt there is any realistic prospect via your servicing agents either. But you'd be surprised what a good repair center can do in sorting out damp damage. Our fist van was badly affected yet when repaired looked as good as new and went on to give good service to us and its next owner.

 

[Surfer]

I am in the Lancashire area. There are no cracks in the front or rear panels. The engineers believe it is getting in through the awning rail seal.
In response to the service reports, I have the reports which are detailed and show no damp, so I believe my complaint isn't with the servicing dealer but the manufacturer.
I also accept the 6year warranty has ended, but I somehow have to demonstrate that if I had of stored the van outside from day one this ingress would have occurred during the warranty period.
I appreciate the help and advice I am getting on this subject.

Why don't you get a quote from another engineer or dealer? The fact that damp appears so suddenly just after the 6 year warranty is a bit suspicious and it maybe because the person servicing the caravan overlooked some areas. Maybe purposely or then maybe not!

 

[Raywood]

Bailey are not known for their generosity when anything goes wrong and legally you have only six years from the date of purchase to sue the dealer (five in Scotland) if you can show that the fault was there when it was sold. You have my sympathy but as far as I can see there is no legal remedy against the dealer or Bailey. A bit late now but if ther warranty is six years make sure that it is serviced or checked before then so that this sort of problem is covered if it arises.

 

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