bailey unicorn valencia water ingress

[otherclive]

I think that it is extremley naive to expect all alutech vans to not have any water ingress. A minor drop off in quality during build could lead to a leak on just one or a number of vans. What the Alutech vans do have is more resistance to water ingress causing damage than the traditional van materials and construction gives. So even if you do have a leak it should do less damage than in a traditional van, and repair techniques are such that I really do doubt that any future trade in will be adversely affected providing the repair agent does a satisfactory job.
It would be nice to live in a perfect world where nothing ever goes wrong but life is not like that. My Bailey has a new front end and new back end both replaced because the original production technique led to panel cracking and water ingress. Both we spotted duriing service and my dealer repaired them at my convenience which had no affect on our holidays and planned breaks. So yes it was disappointing but both Bailey and the Dealer gave excellent service.

 

[RogerL]

So even if you do have a leak it should do less damage than in a traditional van, and repair techniques are such that I really do doubt that any future trade in will be adversely affected providing the repair agent does a satisfactory job.

In theory - Alutec caravans should be quicker and easier to rectify any water ingress - are there any signs that Alutec caravans are rectified quickly?

 

[ProfJohnL]

I think that it is extremley naive to expect all alutech vans to not have any water ingress. ............
It would be nice to live in a perfect world where nothing ever goes wrong but life is not like that. ..........

Hello Clive,
I'm sorry but I do expect a caravan to be water tight. One of the major advertising pushes by bailey when they introduced the alutech method was that water ingress should be virtually eradicated!!!
Now getting verfiable data about the numbers of alutech vans that have leaked is vitually impossible as I have no doubt tha Bailey consider that informatoin to be commercially sensitive, BUT the fact that albeit a small number of owners have reported ingress issues almost certainly means the problem has not been as roundly sorted as Bailey would have wish us believe.
Caravans have been manufactured in serious numbers since the 1950's and in all that time the industry has not produced a foolproof method of keeping caravans waterproof. Like it or not there are comparisons to be made with the car industry, We dont generally have leaky cars or ones that vibrate themselves apart after 2000 miles, and they do far more milage, at higher speeds than caravans and generally subject to much harsher conditions.
The caravan industry as a whole has not invested in this aspect of caravan failure, yet nothing kills the value of a caravan like water ingress.
I may being idealistic in hoping for a watertight caravan, but I dont order a leaky caravan so why should I suffer one?
I have said it many times before, but the workforce in most caravan manufactures is not encouraged to think of quality only quantity and unless the company invests in the necessary jigging and tools to ensure things can only put together correctly then corners will always be cut to the detriment of the final product.
I am reminded of a series of photrapghs that were posted on the forum related some problem with I think it was a steady point, Just looking at the edge of the wall panel where it was 'finished off' under the caravan where it wont be normally seen, the variation in the cut lengths of material made it look really shoddy, so if there is no care here, what about elsewhere in other hidden area's.
As long as customers continue to accept failings because that has been the experience of the past and its all we really expect, then standards won't rise.
I advocate that you contact your seller over every fault you get, don't simply accept it. what it means is that some hasn't done their job right, they get away with it and you are paying for it.
It is my guess that if the construction was tightend up to reduce manufacturing defects caravsan could be as much as 10 to 15% cheaper, the manufacture would not have to set so much profit aside to cover rework and repair costs.

 

[shug]

Hi what i have been told my dealer will dry out floor remove front cover paint dry floor with" special"paint then reseal front and put front covers back on .Front covers as in big plastic bit on front.Was pronised i would get to see dry floor before work completed but van still lying as i delivered it WET.
CHEERS HUGH

 

[xtrailman]

Hi what i have been told my dealer will dry out floor remove front cover paint dry floor with" special"paint then reseal front and put front covers back on .Front covers as in big plastic bit on front.Was pronised i would get to see dry floor before work completed but van still lying as i delivered it WET.
CHEERS HUGH

I would be extremely upset with the dealer, and ask to see some in authority.
Your caravan should not be left open to the elements while it is leaking. I'm assuming it is?
They should also be taking steps to dry the floor, what it frost gets to the wet laminate, won't it lift the veneer?
Also i would be on the phone to Bailey asking for a new caravan.

 

[otherclive]

Whilst I share Prof's sentiment we live in a real world were unfortunately perfection either comes at a high cost or is not possible to attain. I expect aircraft not to crash because of hardware or system failure, but laws of probabilty and fact shows that they do. Standards in caravan manufacture have risen noticeably over the past few years mainly as companies have rationalised and used better production line processes and their equipment suppliers have also improved. But in the same timescale customer expectations have also risen.

 

[RogerL]

Standards in caravan manufacture have risen noticeably over the past few years mainly as companies have rationalised and used better production line processes and their equipment suppliers have also improved. But in the same timescale customer expectations have also risen.

Standard equipment has increased and customers' expectations increased accordingly - but I see no improvement in build quality when I go round dealers nor any improvement in attention to detail.
Thinking of the branded suppliers of equipment, Alko, BPW, Alde, Truma, Spinflo, Thetford, Dometiq, Seitz, etc - which have improved quality, rather than merely increased specification?

 

[Surfer]

In South Africa and Australia they make caravans that are waterproof and have been doing so for a number of years. You can tow these caravans across flooded rivers with no worries about water ingress.

 

[Dustydog]

We've been here before.
Piece work does nothing to instill pride in the job.
Quality Control and Quality Assurance still seem to take a back seat in caravan manufacture.
If I understand the OP problem it appears to arise due to an operator using insufficient sealer or none at all. That stinks imo

 

[MichaelE]

I did always feel that the Alutech was designed so vans could be built much more quickly that conventional construction.
It seems that no matter how well you design something its the person that assembles it is the one your have to rely on?

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Clive,

I find your attidue to this very annoying.

If you expect faults, then you must be a very happy and satisied customer. - What message does that send to the manufacturers?

It basically authorises caravan manufactures to continue to fail to control the quality of their products.

Why Why Why do we accept poor design, inadequat materials and shoddy workmanship. Why should we have to?

It is the fact that for so long the customers have simply capitulated and accepted the poor quality product they produce, so ther is no incentive for them to improve.

Yes the real world is not perfect, but just look at what caravans are! They do not bristle with leading edge technology, they are pretty basic simple repetative devices yet the the failure rate is much higher than you would expect from far more complex items like cars, televisions, computers etc.

The faults that I see and many people report on these forums are generally preventable by good design, proper materials, qulaity workmanship, (just like SoGA says)

The caravan industry has had long enough to identify the problems that cause the most customer disatisfaction and inconvenience and iron the basic faults out , but they continue to appear again and again.

The manufacture may claim that statistically water ingress is not as significant as other faults, but from the customers perspective it is a majore problem which radically affects the products usability, availability, resaleability and value. The manufactures should be doing much more to resolve the design and manufcaturing issues that make this a re-ocuring weakness.
From my perspective it seems that the manufactures are more concerened with fashion, and trends rather than good sound engineering.

I would love any of the manufactures to justify to the consumer their continual failure to manage product quality

 

[JTQ]

There is a "mile" of difference between the realisation that a fault could occur in a caravan or just about anything else and with any implication or acceptance of sub standard design, material, workmanship or post product handling. As I read it that was all Clive stated.
However I agree that sadly the caravan manufacturing and servicing industries are woefully lacking in the due care they exercise under all the above areas.
We should not let them off the hook where they evidently fail, though at the same retaining a sense of proportion and realisation that the cost to build has to be controlled for us ever to be able to afford these things. We would all like the "believed" near perfect Roller or aircraft quality and attention to detail but simply cant fund the inevitable costs associated with it.

 

[RogerL]

We should not let them off the hook where they evidently fail, though at the same retaining a sense of proportion and realisation that the cost to build has to be controlled for us ever to be able to afford these things. We would all like the "believed" near perfect Roller or aircraft quality and attention to detail but simply cant fund the inevitable costs associated with it.

Good design quality and good build quality isn't that much more expensive than poor design quality or poor build quality - it's the high functional specification and material requirements of components that makes Rolls-Royce and Bentley much more expensive than, say, Hyundai or Kia if we use cars as examples.
Construction and motor industries used to be regarded as the worst cowboy traders - they've both cleaned their act up immensely over past decades - it's of concern that the caravan industry is taking on that mantle.
I can't go back before the early 1980's but I don't see that build quality has improved at all - equipment levels are way ahead but not build quality.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I make no appology for expressing my feelings about this subject, Whilst I havn't sufferd water ingress my self, I have seen many caravans that have, and the distress it causes their owners. It is one fault amongst many that gets out from the manufacturing plants and sadly often gets through to the customer despite dealer PDI's etc.
I do agree that we need a sense of realism, and even the brands and products that we think of as being beyond reproach do fail from time to time, but its the frequency of failure and the repetitiveness of the reports of caravan water ingress - It simply should not happen in any modern caravan.
It is not possible for anyone outside of the manufactures to actually quantify the types and numbers of failures, but the exsistance of forums like this, and the readers letters in the magazines clearly show that water ingress is a persistent problem, and whilst it may not be the biggest number of complaints, it is one that probably more than any other has major financial implications for the customer through reduced value, and spoilt (stained and smelly) walls and floors etc.
Any business that has been producing basically the same product for 60 years, should have ironed out the biggest issues that customers complain about. But frankly it does not surprise me, having seen the production methods used by all the major manufactures between 1979 and 1999.
However when looking at caravans, the sheer number of build issues that all point to a lack of QC in all areas from design, through materials and workmanship run at an alarming level. Far higher than in other products of similar levels of technology and market placement.
This thread was raised on water ingress, a problem that has been reported so many times and over a long period indicating that either the problem is not understood, or that manufactures are not putting enough effort into resolving the problem. Similar technologies that do work exsist for lorry and coach builders, so why is it taking so long for the caravan market to catch on?

 

[Dustydog]

Water ingress in the 21st Century is totally unacceptable. Bailey's Alu-tech probably goes some way to alleviate the problem using a stronger construction method and little timber. But yet again the Achilles heel is not the sealant but how, if at all ,it has been applied.
In these days of robotics why don't the manufacturers devise an automatic method of sealant application rather than rely on the piece worker on the factory floor.
Maybe if more people started taking stronger action and rejecting the caravan with such basic flaws matters may improve in the long run.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Quality and reliability all begin with a proper design and development programme. Ideas and materials will be selected or tested beyond what is normal duty to ensure the final product will survive in its intended market for the designed life of the product.

The design process must also include a production engineering plan. This plan will put into place jigs and fixtures that prevent incorrect assembly. It will also identify where jigs and fixtures can't be used so that appropriate tests and inspections are set up to check for correct assembly or manufacture.

Using a quality assurance process, the production/manufacturing/assembly shop will only buy in the correct specifications of materials and sub assemblies from approved quality assured suppliers.

Production operatives will be skill mapped and only be used for activities where there skill sets allow them to perform the given task correctly, Management will provide training to up skill enough workers for the skilled tasks. They will be incentivised to produce a high standard of work, not just a large quantity.

Sample testing of final product to monitor build quality and completeness, with non-conformances being highlighted and corrective actions taken, investigation to identify why the NC's arose, and preventative action to stop re-occurrence.

Dealer and customer feedback being used to identify failings and proper action to investigate and identify where the faults arose and the information being fed back into the system to plan preventative actions.

When all these aspects are implemented and under control, then the final product will roll off the production line better able to serve its owners fully.

It may cost more to develop a product, but its production costs can be reduced because there is less rework or scrap, and products incur less warranty/guarantee costs. Overall such attention to detail saves money in the long run.

 

[RogerL]

I don't think anyone would disagree with that John, I certainly don't - but it would be better directed at manufacturers than their customers.

 

[JTQ]

It may cost more to develop a product, but its production costs can be reduced because there is less rework or scrap, and products incur less warranty/guarantee costs. Overall such attention to detail saves money in the long run.

Undoubtedly but we are talking “caravans” where the number of units produced of each permutation are simply not enough to recover these cost; wish it could be otherwise but realistically its not.
That said there is a lot they ought to do a very much better from design on.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello JTQ

I stand by my comment, and I do believe it is eminetly possible for caravan manufacturers to invest considerably more up front to get the product right.
Consider that the the majority of models from a single manufacturer will utilise the same technology and construction techniques, so the lessons learned from one new development will also appear on virtually all their other models. As such increasing the development budget would be readily recoupoed.
In the context of the OP's water ingress problem, its not as if there isn't a wealth of experience in vehicle manufacture elswhere, and with regards moulded forms there are plenty of boats that dont seem to leak like caravans, so its not as if there is a need to invent something totally new!
I cannot qualify this but I received some information a number of years ago that suggested that one major manufacture budgeted for an average dealer and customer guarantee cost of about 12% of ex works price!. being able to reduce that by half would release several hundred thousand pounds that could be redirected to more competent reasearch and development.
I do accept that because of the historical way the business has run, switching would require a leap of faith, but I have seen it done in several busineses with quite remarkable results.
Even though some manufactures do engage with the retail customers through forums and web sites, they still do not seem to understand the distress and upset that failures of their products causes. Understanding what the customer needs (not necesarily what they want) is the key that can unlock hidden potential in many businesses.

 

[xtrailman]

I think the problem also extends to lack of investment in people.
The hire and fire attitude of employers is often the cause of poor workmanship.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the video of the unicorn build, show an employee applying the mastic by hand?
And you don't see anyone checking the procedure, its all done as quickly as possible, it only needs a temporary agency worker to miss a couple of inches of mastic to create a leak.

 

[shug]

hi guys got van back today all looking good and dry so will have to wait and see
cheers shug

 

[5Trina5]

We have a Bailey Unicorn Seville, and at the service just before we intended to sell it, we were told that we have a problem with damp front lockers, that they have had several vans with the same problem, and worst of al from our point of view, we are having to wait from January until May for there to be a slot available for Baileys to mend it. We wanted to sell it! Poor service by any standards.

 

[WoodlandsCamper]

You've picked up a 3-year old thread. Things may be different now, but I doubt it.

 

[Dustydog]

I've been a Bailey supporter for many years.
A four month delay to deal with this problem tells me one of two things.

1. Bailey don't care about their customers.

2. Bailey have so many product failures they can't cope.

I doubt any of the other UK manufacturers are any better.

Will Bailey comment?
:woohoo:

 

[Robtel]

.........worst of al from our point of view, we are having to wait from January until May for there to be a slot available for Baileys to mend it.

Can I ask, are Bailey taking it back to Bristol to do the repairs themselves? Can the local dealership not repair it. Seem to remember reading about this fault before and it was a relatively simple fix being carried out by local workshops.