Calor Gas Again!

[JTQ]

If you have a dual or twin supply for two gas bottles in your locker, I am wondering if one tail can be used for the normal propane bottle and the other tail for a Campingaz cylinder or a Butane cylinder? Not sure if the bulkhead regulator would be suitable for both types?

Yes, that works it was my "insurance" configuration when I toured over in Europe, one Gaslight 10 kg, plus one Campingaz for Cadac or if ever I ran out of propane, I could use the Campingaz for the van's gas system. Just needed an adaptor to a LH screw thread. LINK
[Our 27mm clip-on & our POL adaptors all use that common "butane" LH thread, for the interface.]

And I always exchanged one or two 907s refills when in France where its pricing is not utterly as exploitive as here in the good old country.

My regulator, as is also now common here in the UK, is 30mb and suits propane or butane use.

 

[Gozza2]

The way I read it the small 3.9 kg propane and the 6 kg propane are still available, So is there a problem?

The 3.9 propane is on the list for discontinuance.

The 6kg propane is OK, unless you want to use it somewhere it won't fit, like the boat lockers mentioned above, or in small gas heaters. But if you've been used to 3.9 cylinders or Calorlights for the last few years, a 6kg "heavy" is a significant extra weight to heave into a gas locker.

That extra weight was my prime motivator, with CalorLite going, for investing in a Safefill, with the plan being to have a Safefill as my main cylinder for the 'van, and a 3.9 Calor as a backup. Now I'll have to either get a second Safefill, or a small Flogas light, either way involving an expensive purchase or a new cylinder refill agreement (or whatever Flogas call that charge).

 

[Buckman]

Yes, that works it was my "insurance" configuration when I toured over in Europe, one Gaslight 10 kg, plus one Campingaz for Cadac or if ever I ran out of propane, I could use the Campingaz for the van's gas system. Just needed an adaptor to a LH screw thread. LINK
[Our 27mm clip-on & our POL adaptors all use that common "butane" LH thread, for the interface.]

And I always exchanged one or two 907s refills when in France where its pricing is not utterly as exploitive as here in the good old country.

My regulator, as is also now common here in the UK, is 30mb and suits propane or butane use.

I am not sure of the size of the smallest Campingaz cylinder, but any idea what would it cost to refill a small Campingaz bottle in the UK?

 

[otherclive]

I am not sure of the size of the smallest Campingaz cylinder, but any idea what would it cost to refill a small Campingaz bottle in the UK?

I posted above. A R904 holds 1.8 kg and cost me £35. Makes Calor look a veritable bargain.

 

[Buckman]

I posted above. A R904 holds 1.8 kg and cost me £35. Makes Calor look a veritable bargain.

Hmm. Can scrap the Campingas idea. Probably a small Flogas as a backup in case we are unable to refill our Safefill cylinder.

 

[otherclive]

Hmm. Can scrap the Campingas idea. Probably a small Flogas as a backup in case we are unable to refill our Safefill cylinder.

That’s a more satisfactory approach.

 

[JTQ]

I am not sure of the size of the smallest Campingaz cylinder, but any idea what would it cost to refill a small Campingaz bottle in the UK?

For the "larger" Campingaz 907; now sit down first, take and finish a whiskey, LINK

But for that you get nearly all of 4.7 litres of butane !!!!!!!!!

 

[otherclive]

For the "larger" Campingaz 907; now sit down first, take and finish a whiskey, LINK

But for that you get nearly all of 4.7 litres of butane !!!!!!!!!

£45 for 2.7kg of Campingaz in a R907 it’s totally impractical for regular use in a caravan.

 

[JTQ]

£45 for 2.7kg of Campingaz in a R907 it’s totally impractical for regular use in a caravan.

Exactly; but if trekking to Europe and having a portable Cadac, plus not 100% certain your UK unique gas bottle will last the duration, then IMO it makes good sense.
I also have two 907s I have been gifted over the years, and had made a habit of only exchanging them at French supermarkets, where the cost had been way better than it had been here.
"Horses for courses", the portable use of the Cadac and 100% cover for LPG supplies both addressed. Not a viable winter solution because 907s are butane.

 

[JTQ]

Well yes, the problem isn't insurmountable - but loads of us have money invested in what Calor call "cylinder charges" which we're not going to get back unless we've got the original paperwork.

Even if you have the original receipt, I think Calor's has a short validity till it diminished down towards zero value refund. Though, presently with the bottle shortage I think they give you about your petrol money back if you take it to certain of their resellers.
I wonder with the dumpy bottles where the plan it to scrap them their "generosity" will extend to that for those dumping the brand completely?

 

[ProfJohnL]

If you have a dual or twin supply for two gas bottles in your locker, I am wondering if one tail can be used for the normal propane bottle and the other tail for a Campingaz cylinder or a Butane cylinder? Not sure if the bulkhead regulator would be suitable for both types?

You must NOT connect Propane and Butanes at the same time. Its highly dangerous for a number of reasons and illegal in the UK.

 

[Buckman]

You must NOT connect Propane and Butanes at the same time. Its highly dangerous for a number of reasons and illegal in the UK.

They are not used at the same time as there is a switch or tap between them and you can switch from one bottle to the other.

 

[RogerL]

Even if you have the original receipt, I think Calor's has a short validity till it diminished down towards zero value refund. Though, presently with the bottle shortage I think they give you about your petrol money back if you take it to certain of their resellers.
I wonder with the dumpy bottles where the plan it to scrap them their "generosity" will extend to that for those dumping the brand completely?

My original rental agreement, from 1973, specifies reducing percentages each year until it reaches 25% of the original rental value and then remains at that level forever - I'd get about £9 if I handed two cylinders back.

 

[ProfJohnL]

They are not used at the same time as there is a switch or tap between them and you can switch from one bottle to the other.

As long as both cannot be switched on at the same time.

 

[RogerL]

As long as both cannot be switched on at the same time.

Bulkhead regulators are designed to handle propane or butane - some automatically change from one cylinder to the other with no interlock to prevent both being connected at the same time via use of the appropriate pigtail.

Whilst I'm not advocating it as a good idea, I've not heard of any such ban.

 

[Hutch]

I know there are dealers on eBay that advertise, to give Calorlite refills, for below £30, with this new demise of the 3.9kg I am sure we will find these dealers refilling them.

 

[Gafferbill]

Just for the record Campingaz is not Butane.....it is a mixture of Butane and Propane.
It would seem that Campingaz think it is safe and legal to mix the two gases!!

 

[Hutch]

Colman's do a mixed gas canister for low temperature.

Coleman C500 Performance Gas Cartridge | GO Outdoors

A compact camping gas cartridge using a butane/propane blend.

www.gooutdoors.co.uk

 

[otherclive]

Colman's do a mixed gas canister for low temperature.

Coleman C500 Performance Gas Cartridge | GO Outdoors

A compact camping gas cartridge using a butane/propane blend.

www.gooutdoors.co.uk

My two camping stoves use Camping Gaz equivalents too.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Bulkhead regulators are designed to handle propane or butane - some automatically change from one cylinder to the other with no interlock to prevent both being connected at the same time via use of the appropriate pigtail.

Whilst I'm not advocating it as a good idea, I've not heard of any such ban.

The Uk Gas Safety (installation and Use ) regulations specifically disallows the connection of two types of gas or the same gas at different operating pressures at the same time. There has to be some sort of interlock that prevents any possibility of one gas type or pressure feeding back to the other source. Obvious really

Failure to observe these Reg's is a criminal offence.

 

[Buckman]

The Uk Gas Safety (installation and Use ) regulations specifically disallows the connection of two types of gas or the same gas at different operating pressures at the same time. There has to be some sort of interlock that prevents any possibility of one gas type or pressure feeding back to the other source. Obvious really

Failure to observe these Reg's is a criminal offence.

Does that regulation apply to caravans as it probably only applies to domestic or commercial premises? The bulkhead regulator has a lever between the two outlets that you can physically move or the regulator can do it automatically.

 

[JTQ]

Just for the record Campingaz is not Butane.....it is a mixture of Butane and Propane.
It would seem that Campingaz think it is safe and legal to mix the two gases!!

Some of the Camping Gaz 907 bottles definitely have "Butane" printed on them, albeit the older bottles still in circulation that also have the older brand name "Camping Gaz".

The point I made is that these 907s are not suitable for use in the cold temperatures caravanning can meet in winter, even if blended LPG gases are used to achieve a somewhat better tolerance. Blended butane propane mixes are common practice in disposable cannisters of various brands, and also in pumped automotive LPGs dispensed in many countries other than the UK.

On the other point being raised about the dangers of systems where both gases can interconnect, a real danger lays in the different vapour pressure these liquid products are stored at, for butane only about 230 kPa at 21 C, whilst propane is nearer 850 kPa at the same temperature.
Hence a bottle only certified strong enough for butane storage could be dangerously over pressured, if there could be a direct stored propane feed into it.
In my case I use the same pigtail just switching which connection adaptor I fit, so no possible feeding of propane's high pressures back to my 907.

 

[RogerL]

The Uk Gas Safety (installation and Use ) regulations specifically disallows the connection of two types of gas or the same gas at different operating pressures at the same time. There has to be some sort of interlock that prevents any possibility of one gas type or pressure feeding back to the other source. Obvious really

Failure to observe these Reg's is a criminal offence.

With bulkhead regulators, which caravans have been fitted with for many years, butane and propane operate at the SAME pressure.

I can understand the issue connecting butane and propane with cylinder-mounted regulators as they'll operate at different pressures.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Does that regulation apply to caravans as it probably only applies to domestic or commercial premises? The bulkhead regulator has a lever between the two outlets that you can physically move or the regulator can do it automatically.

GS(I&U)REGS apply to ALL gas installations. However there are certain limits to their application specified within the regulations about who may work on such system, it does not water down the standard required for the work or the safe methods of operation and use which are given in more detail in supplementary support standards and codes of practice.

Specifically in the case you have given, When you first mentioned using two gas types in #50 you did not say you had isolating change over valves, you only added that piece of information in #61 after I had commented about having two types of gas supply connected at the same time.

The changeover valve should isolate and prevent back flow of gas in the installation into the unused cylinder.

 

[Buckman]

GS(I&U)REGS apply to ALL gas installations. However there are certain limits to their application specified within the regulations about who may work on such system, it does not water down the standard required for the work or the safe methods of operation and use which are given in more detail in supplementary support standards and codes of practice.

Specifically in the case you have given, When you first mentioned using two gas types in #50 you did not say you had isolating change over valves, you only added that piece of information in #61 after I had commented about having two types of gas supply connected at the same time.

The changeover valve should isolate and prevent back flow of gas in the installation into the unused cylinder.

I am not sure even if it is possible to feed butane and propane into the caravan system through the bulkhead regulator at the same time which is why I incorrectly assumed my post would be understood.

We use LPG when refiulling our Safefill cylinder and this is a mixture of Butane, Propane, propylene, butylene and isobutane so not sure why Propane and Butane cannot be mixed anyway? After all they all come from the same source.