Calor Gas Again!

[ProfJohnL]

Bulkhead regulators are designed to handle propane or butane - some automatically change from one cylinder to the other with no interlock to prevent both being connected at the same time via use of the appropriate pigtail.

Whilst I'm not advocating it as a good idea, I've not heard of any such ban.

Sadly just because you have not heard of a regulation does not mean it does not exist. Generally you rely on the system installer to ensure the system complies with regulations of the time, and because of that most users are ignorant of the details of the installation and supply regulations.

With the change in the early 2000's of the UK LPG supply pressure from butane 28mB and Propane 37bB to the common 30mB for both, it enabled single pressure bulkhead regulators to be fitted caravans. Change over varieties became available later, and even these should isolate the cylinder not being used so it can be changed without having to compromise the supply from the cylinder being used.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Just for the record Campingaz is not Butane.....it is a mixture of Butane and Propane.
It would seem that Campingaz think it is safe and legal to mix the two gases!!

You have made an incorrect assumption about my comment. It's not about what's in the cylinder, it's about how it could be compromised if its allowed to mix with a different source of gas.

The regulations are to ensure that any gas supply system (eg an LPG cylinder or gas supply from a piped system) cannot be compromised or contaminated with any other gas that might be used in an installation. So it must automatically isolate the cylinder it is not drawing from.

One obvious danger of having a butane and a propane cylinder connected together is that propane has a greater vapour pressure than butane, and unchecked it will try to occupy the butane cylinder. If that cylinder is then transferred to a system which is sensitive to the type of gas it receives, it could be dangerous.

Both Commercial Butane and Propane gasses are already a mix of LPG fractions and are not pure, Just because they are already mixed you should not allow the proportions of those mixtures to be altered by mixing with a gas from differnt cylinder as it will change its characteristics, and in some situations that mixing might prevent appliances from working or it may begin to work dangerously.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I am not sure even if it is possible to feed butane and propane into the caravan system through the bulkhead regulator at the same time which is why I incorrectly assumed my post would be understood.

We use LPG when refiulling our Safefill cylinder and this is a mixture of Butane, Propane, propylene, butylene and isobutane so not sure why Propane and Butane cannot be mixed anyway? After all they all come from the same source.

YOu might alway purchase you gas from the same source, but the change over regulator does not know that, which is why it should automatically isolate and prevent back feeding into the cylinder it's not drawing from.

 

[Gafferbill]

You have made an incorrect assumption about my comment. It's not about what's in the cylinder, it's about how it could be compromised if its allowed to mix with a different source of gas.

The regulations are to ensure that any gas supply system (eg an LPG cylinder or gas supply from a piped system) cannot be compromised or contaminated with any other gas that might be used in an installation. So it must automatically isolate the cylinder it is not drawing from.

One obvious danger of having a butane and a propane cylinder connected together is that propane has a greater vapour pressure than butane, and unchecked it will try to occupy the butane cylinder. If that cylinder is then transferred to a system which is sensitive to the type of gas it receives, it could be dangerous.

Both Commercial Butane and Propane gasses are already a mix of LPG fractions and are not pure, Just because they are already mixed you should not allow the proportions of those mixtures to be altered by mixing with a gas from differnt cylinder as it will change its characteristics, and in some situations that mixing might prevent appliances from working or it may begin to work dangerously.

......my post was not addressed to yourself.
Other posts in this thread stated Campingaz was Butane which is incorrect.
I understand your posts but wonder why you think a caravan user could or would feed from a Butane and a Propane cylinder in such a way that they would mix.
Surely change over valves fitted to UK caravans prevent this.

 

[Grumpy]

It seems Calor's turnover is on the way down and Flogas is on the way up.
Might it be something to do with the way they are running the business. It wouldn't make a lot of difference to SHV if they dumped Calor.

 

[ProfJohnL]

......my post was not addressed to yourself.
Other posts in this thread stated Campingaz was Butane which is incorrect.
I understand your posts but wonder why you think a caravan user could or would feed from a Butane and a Propane cylinder in such a way that they would mix.
Surely change over valves fitted to UK caravans prevent this.

That should be correct, but in my time I have seen some quite eyewatering mistakes on gas systems and when some one posts

"If you have a dual or twin supply for two gas bottles in your locker, I am wondering if one tail can be used for the normal propane bottle and the other tail for a Campingaz cylinder or a Butane cylinder? "​

​

it opens the possibility that someone might attempt to connect both a Propane and Butane cylinder to the same feed concurrently without realising the mismatch of the cylinder and pressures.

I know the Truma DuoMatic system that was available in the 1980's had regulators one for each cylinder, but the regulators were only sold in matched gas type pairs so it would not be possible to mix the gas type cylinders becasue of the coupling thread on the regulators. However at periods of very high demand the reserve cylinder could supplement the main cylinder, but that rarely should occur on a touring caravan more likely on the Butane version in low ambient temperatures.

Other dual regulator multiple cylinder systems I have seen on industrial systems do isolate the unused cylinders allowing them to be replaced without leakage.

 

[Grumpy]

I've just been to a LPG pump to fill up 4 Calor Lite bottles and found out it is not working.
The reason why---
"The company that supply us is so bad we are moving to Flogas"

 

[RogerL]

I've just been to a LPG pump to fill up 4 Calor Lite bottles and found out it is not working.
The reason why---
"The company that supply us is so bad we are moving to Flogas"

You're not supposed to be able to refill Calor Lite cylinders - is that a typo for Gas Light?

 

[otherclive]

You're not supposed to be able to refill Calor Lite cylinders - is that a typo for Gas Light?

Gaslight are not supposed to be self filled, they are exchanged empty for full.

 

[Grumpy]

Very sorry for the mistake, of course you are correct it should read Gas Light.
I've only been on the forum a few hours and I've been corrected--Slapped wrist !!
One thing I have learnt in the few hours of being on here some health and safety fanatics who I doubt have ever touched a gas bottle say an awful lot of mights, coulds, ifs, etc etc

Ive built cars, planes, helicopters, houses and boats and in smaller companies without the restrictions of health and safety and built things for myself without their hindrance and I'm still alive.
The only 2 accidents I cam remember was an acetylene bottle blowing up and a man slipped over in the toilets and hurt himself
Let's not take too much notice of so called experts who do a lot of paper work but not much real world things. Flu kills more people than gas bottles.

This is not aimed at anyone just the system that tries to make everything difficult when most things are very simple

 

[Grumpy]

Gaslight are not supposed to be self filled, they are exchanged empty for full.

Perhaps it was my car I was trying to fill up. My memory is getting bad

 

[otherclive]

I've just been to a LPG pump to fill up 4 Calor Lite bottles and found out it is not working.
The reason why---
"The company that supply us is so bad we are moving to Flogas"

Calorlite are not supposed to be self filled. they are exchanged empty for full.

Very sorry for the mistake, of course you are correct it should read Gas Light.
I've only been on the forum a few hours and I've been corrected--Slapped wrist !!
One thing I have learnt in the few hours of being on here some health and safety fanatics who I doubt have ever touched a gas bottle say an awful lot of mights, coulds, ifs, etc etc

Ive built cars, planes, helicopters, houses and boats and in smaller companies without the restrictions of health and safety and built things for myself without their hindrance and I'm still alive.
The only 2 accidents I cam remember was an acetylene bottle blowing up and a man slipped over in the toilets and hurt himself
Let's not take too much notice of so called experts who do a lot of paper work but not much real world things. Flu kills more people than gas bottles.

This is not aimed at anyone just the system that tries to make everything difficult when most things are very simple

Not really too bothered by the members of the self immolation society, but do get fussed if it could adversely affect third parties who do accept the restrictions on their ability to do whatever they want to. You might be very surprised at the experience of the so called HS fanatics.

 

[audiorob]

I am just imagining all the 'dumpy' cylinders eventually ending up in landfill?

 

[otherclive]

I am just imagining all the 'dumpy' cylinders eventually ending up in landfill?

If they are steel then they can be recycled. Our local HRC watch what goes where and cylinders go into a wired locked compound for collection by the the licensed hazardous waste companies. But of course if an owner sticks them into black sacks then they could easily go into landfill, which is areal waste of a valuable material.

 

[JTQ]

Perhaps it was my car I was trying to fill up. My memory is getting bad

Memory going and working with self-conceived rather than industry norms or legally required standards, some recipes there for a potential hiccup?

Welcome to the forum.

 

[Grumpy]

If they are steel then they can be recycled. Our local HRC watch what goes where and cylinders go into a wired locked compound for collection by the the licensed hazardous waste companies. But of course if an owner sticks them into black sacks then they could easily go into landfill, which is areal waste of a valuable material.

Have you ever been to a land fill site and seen what goes in.

Peoples views on recycling might change if they went out with a pair of strong binoculars and checked the visible things let alone the hidden items.
"don't believe anything written down until you see it with your own eyes"

 

[otherclive]

Have you ever been to a land fill site and seen what goes in.

Peoples views on recycling might change if they went out with a pair of strong binoculars and checked the visible things let alone the hidden items.
"don't believe anything written down until you see it with your own eyes"

Just because some people can't understand how recycling works, or perhaps don't want to understand how it works, does not mean that the many who are trying to do the right thing should not continue in their efforts. Never had the privilege of visiting a landfill site, and it is not on my bucket list. My binoculars are unable to view the "hidden items" at all well.

 

[Parksy]

.....One thing I have learnt in the few hours of being on here some health and safety fanatics who I doubt have ever touched a gas bottle say an awful lot of mights, coulds, ifs, etc etc

Ive built cars, planes, helicopters, houses and boats and in smaller companies without the restrictions of health and safety and built things for myself without their hindrance and I'm still alive......

Hi Grumpy
On this forum we try to strike a balance between the dangers or difficulties of DIY repairs and maintenance and the practical aspects of DIY jobs on touring caravans.
Many forum members offer advice, most of it is usually good but sometimes it's wide of the mark.
None of us really know the background experience of those commenting on the forum, but from what we've seen over the years there is a wide spectrum of knowledge based expertise among most of our long term members.
We can't advocate practices that we know to be dangerous or illegal, but we try to help and encourage members to carry out DIY jobs that they're capable of.
LPG and electrical systems on caravans can be very dangerous if worked on by a person who is not competent to do the job safely and properly.
This is why there will always be forum members who advise caution, in some cases with good reason.
If you built cars, planes, houses, helicopters and boats at some time, good for you, but nobody on this forum could possibly know of any past experience that you may have had.
We have your word for it, which we normally accept at face value.
Please don't assume that fellow forum members who you regard as H&S fanatics don't have a similar or even greater range of experience than your own.
As our good friend Beachball often says, "each to their own".

 

[Grumpy]

Memory going and working with self-conceived rather than industry norms or legally required standards, some recipes there for a potential hiccup?

Welcome to the forum.

Thank you.
I don't think I will be on here long before I get thrown off!!!

Industry norms : Who decides these norms, are they correct? Just because one has been to university and obtained a degree or two and written a report about a report which was written about a report doesn't mean the armchair report is correct when you have never even seen a gas bottle let alone filled one up. Why are we so trusting in people that the only tools they have ever used is a pen and paper.

A family member who was very high up in the Health and Safety Executive took 2 years to write his last report just before he retired. I bet you that was scraped and another report was started.

 

[Grumpy]

Hi Grumpy
On this forum we try to strike a balance between the dangers or difficulties of DIY repairs and maintenance and the practical aspects of DIY jobs on touring caravans.
Many forum members offer advice, most of it is usually good but sometimes it's wide of the mark.
None of us really know the background experience of those commenting on the forum, but from what we've seen over the years there is a wide spectrum of knowledge based expertise among most of our long term members.
We can't advocate practices that we know to be dangerous or illegal, but we try to help and encourage members to carry out DIY jobs that they're capable of.
LPG and electrical systems on caravans can be very dangerous if worked on by a person who is not competent to do the job safely and properly.
This is why there will always be forum members who advise caution, in some cases with good reason.
If you built cars, planes, houses, helicopters and boats at some time, good for you, but nobody on this forum could possibly know of any past experience that you may have had.
We have your word for it, which we normally accept at face value.
Please don't assume that fellow forum members who you regard as H&S fanatics don't have a similar or even greater range of experience than your own.
As our good friend Beachball often says, "each to their own".

Thank you Parksy for your telling off.
I will not comment on anything else in these forums.
You obviously don't believe my experiences.
Good Bye

 

[Parksy]

There you go again, making assumptions.
You have absolutely no idea what I believe or don't believe.
If you think that what I've written was a telling off you must be a sensitive soul.
Bye then

 

[Hutch]

Thank you Parksy for your telling off.
I will not comment on anything else in these forums.
You obviously don't believe my experiences.
Good Bye

That wasn't a telling off from Parksy, but you did seem to drop yourself into it,
Whilst at work we had people who thought they could repair aircraft, unlicensed engineers, you would check their work and some would be gone the next day.
You do need standards, some gas bottles can be refilled, at LPG stations, others, such as Calor cannot, for the safety reasons of Calor, to the general public.
I wonder why you chose Grumpy for your Forum name.
Safe travels.

 

[Gozza2]

Is it only me that thinks "Grumpy" is/was a troll account?

 

[ProfJohnL]

...
"don't believe anything written down until you see it with your own eyes"

With that statement, Why should I believe Mr G?

Edit, sorry Mr Grumpy, I meant "Grumpy"

 

[Hutch]

With that statement, Why should I believe Mr G?

Prof, Don't get "Grumpy", mistaken for "Mr Grumpy".