Can of Worms!

[Joyce_5063910]

I have been debating with myself whether to ask the following questions of the forum as the comments can get rather personal. So although I have been a member for most of the year I have been a silent one most of the time and after the following maybe some will wish I had stayed that way! But here goes, I am sure there are some of you who will give me honest answers without making me feel too bad.

Don and I have been campaigning for the past 18 months for standards for safe and suitable lifting devices for caravans, horseboxes and light trailers with fixed jacking point so that when in use you do not need to go under your van to place a jack in position where you think it should be.

We have now been invited to go to Brussels to present our case and also to take our product with us to demonstrate it as it fulfils all these standards.

We would like all lifting devices to be as safe as ours and have a specific jacking point for them to attach to so taking away the danger that the jack could part company from the trailer. There are still people who do want to use lifting devices and you can not always call recover to do certain jobs.

As we only found out about the meeting last Friday I do not have too much time to put together our case in document form but most of the technical advisers from the caravan magazines and other areas have sent me statements to the effect that they are in favour of safe, suitable lifting devices and also fixed jacking points, similar to those in cars. They are all of the opinion that ordinary jacks can be very dangerous and the towing vehicle jack rarely is compatible to the towed vehicle.

What we are short of are your thoughts and experiences of using lifting devices and if you know of any which have given way, slipped when been used or ones that are just were not suitable for the job you bought them for.

We are not looking for product names but situations and your experiences when the lifting devices did not work safety and correctly.

From some of the entries in previous questions, I know some of you have had bad experiences and I also konw some of you have solved the lifting problem with your own ingenious ideas, but should you really have to modify in order to lift safely?

I await your answers and experiences with much interest...

 

[Guest]

ALKO do supply, as an extra, jacks for their chassis that are side lifting. However, they are not cheap and many people use a trolley jack which can be used for other purposes as well.

I do agree that a suitable device should be supplied either by the chassis manufacturer, or the carvan manufacturer as part of the package. 'Add-ons' seem to be a convenient way for supliers to extract extra cash from the customer.

The problem I would foresee is getting the existing chassis manufacturers to adopt your device when they can supply their own.

However, good luck

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

Good luck in your campaign Joyce but in your introduction to your post you had me on the edge of my seat expecting something smutty :O)

 

[Lutz]

Hello Joyce,

Nice to hear from you again after we met in Dusseldorf. I wish you well with your campaign but to my knowledge, there isn't even a standard requirement for lifting points (as opposed to lashing points) for towing vehicles either (hence the many variations of car jacks on the market). Or were you thinking about including these in your campaign, too? Without making it a requirement for each manufacturer to provide a purpose-built jack with every vehicle, including caravans and trailers, it doesn't seem to me to make much sense. But perhaps that is what you were getting at.

 

[Joyce_5063910]

Thank you to David, Lord B and Lutz for replying to my topic and wishing us good luck.

It was nice to meet you too Lutz in Dusseldorf, sorry we can not attend the meet at Easter we have a rally in Holland.

I have to say that I was hoping for a few more replies with accounts of your experiences, when using lifting devices on your caravans.

The last time I posted the question of jacks there were many who had both good and bad experiences and there certainly was lots who did have to use a jack at some point in time and had strong views about them.

I wonder what has happened to all those people? We are trying to get all manufacturers to have a duty of care to the customers so that they provide at least a jacking point and that there are available suitable caravans jacks to be used on these fixing points.

We would like it go even further and that you should not even have to go under the caravan or trailer to operate these lifting devices and that they are capable of lifting the heaviest caravans with ease and complete safely. There should be complete safety whether you decided or need to lift your van or whether you call another to do it for you. He still needs to be safe and to be able to do the work quickly without going underneath or damaging your chassis.

Most cars Lutz, are supplied with a suitable lifting devices and jacking point although we do appreciate that it is not mandatory to do this. But most of them feel that they have a duty of care to supply them. We only wish caravan and trailer manufacturers to take on the same responsibility to their customers.

PS. Our meeting in Brussels is on 1st December with Dr Schulte-Braucks he is the head of the Consumer goods / Automotive industry unit in the Commission's Enterprise and Industry Directorate-General.

5 year ago hitch stabilisers were not standards fitting and now they are. This came about through pressure from the consumers.

So why not with safe and suitable lifting devices?

 

[emmerson2]

Thank you to David, Lord B and Lutz for replying to my topic and wishing us good luck.

It was nice to meet you too Lutz in Dusseldorf, sorry we can not attend the meet at Easter we have a rally in Holland.

I have to say that I was hoping for a few more replies with accounts of your experiences, when using lifting devices on your caravans.

The last time I posted the question of jacks there were many who had both good and bad experiences and there certainly was lots who did have to use a jack at some point in time and had strong views about them.

I wonder what has happened to all those people? We are trying to get all manufacturers to have a duty of care to the customers so that they provide at least a jacking point and that there are available suitable caravans jacks to be used on these fixing points.

We would like it go even further and that you should not even have to go under the caravan or trailer to operate these lifting devices and that they are capable of lifting the heaviest caravans with ease and complete safely. There should be complete safety whether you decided or need to lift your van or whether you call another to do it for you. He still needs to be safe and to be able to do the work quickly without going underneath or damaging your chassis.

Most cars Lutz, are supplied with a suitable lifting devices and jacking point although we do appreciate that it is not mandatory to do this. But most of them feel that they have a duty of care to supply them. We only wish caravan and trailer manufacturers to take on the same responsibility to their customers.

PS. Our meeting in Brussels is on 1st December with Dr Schulte-Braucks he is the head of the Consumer goods / Automotive industry unit in the Commission's Enterprise and Industry Directorate-General.

5 year ago hitch stabilisers were not standards fitting and now they are. This came about through pressure from the consumers.

So why not with safe and suitable lifting devices?

I've used an exhaust gas inflatable jack for many years with no trouble at all.

 

[Guest]

Joyce,

I am sorry I not enough detail was given in the responses.I assumed you were looking for feedback on the feasibility of your product.

I do use a trolley jack for my van. Why? Well I did try to use the car jack and the first attempt was highly successful but on the second the van slipped off. Fortunately no damage was caused either to the van or me. So I recognised i had to get something better. The trolley jack provides in my opinion a large 'footprint' to support the van. This I feel is important as the ground surface may not always be nice flat concrete. Secondly it has a 'cup'lifting surface, which reduces the chances of slipping when in use. You mention having to go under the van. I feel the trolley jack eliminates this in the fact you can use the handle to push it into the correct position with out actually going under the van. If I did want to work under the van for a maintenance reason then of course I would use axle stands as a secondary support. I value my life. It can also be used on the car if the normal car jack would have the same problems on soft surfaces as mentioned above, so the extra weight is in my opinion justified. Finally, it is usually a very substantial piece of kit so is not likely to collapse, as could be the case if a side lift jack is of poor quality. I am not saying that those available are, I just took my choice in the matter.

 

[Joyce_5063910]

Hi David

Sorry I obviously did not make myself clear. We are looking for the forums experiences with lifting devices and jacks and what devices they actually use.

Whether they have had any near misses and why. Was it the lifting devices that gave way or maybe the way they used them.

We know from talking to people that everyone has their own own idea of what is suitable and that is sometimes what we feel can be dangerous as everyone`s knowledge is not always correct and the devices they use not always up to the job.

We feel that safety is paramount when choosing a jack and although some of you may have the knowledge to buy well others do not. We know not everyone wishes to lift their caravans but many do and we think in the interest of health and safety there should be appropriate caravan jacks on the market which are sold for that purpose and which can be operated easily by any sex and any age and by those who have limited knowledge.

Thank you for giving your account and experience but you did not say how much your trolley jack is in weight and where you carry it when towing.

Please can more of you give me your accounts and experiences good or bad we know many of you have stories and opinions.

Thank you......

 

[Guest]

Joyce,

My trolley jack is a standard 2 tonne item purchased from Machinemart and it comes in a nice plastic box which sits inside another box in the boot of my car.

I would suspect that you will find the vast majority of 'problems' encountered with jacks are due to operator error, and not necessarily the device itself, although it will always get the blame. Use of a jack that is designed for another function is another common error. Designing a jack for the various chassis designs currently available is certainly not going to be easy, unless you have a number of different types. Even then ensuring people will use the right one for the right chassis is fraught with problems. Almost inevitably you will be looking at an under axle device, or the chassis manufacturer will not give approval.

I am not trying to be critical but I feel your comment regarding 'use by any sex, age or limited knowledge' is possibly never going to be achievable. It would be almost impossible to make a device 'idiot proof', except possibly the American idea of hydraulic jacks fitted into RV's, (I am thinking of the cost and power problems of such items in a caravan) and no manufacturer is going to accept the liability that such a claim could entail. There also seems to be a trend now not to encourage even the changing of a wheel on a car, but to call out one of the recovery services and I would suspect with caravans, that is a trend that will continue. It is still not common to carry a torque wrench, to ensure the wheel nuts are corectly tightened even if all the jacking procedures go well.

I am maybe getting too old, but having lived and worked with HSE for over 30 years I have come to realise that you will never eliminate the accident factor, but good luck for trying.

David

 

[RogerL]

Joyce, I've used 3 different lifting devices with different degrees of success.

I have a trolley jack which I use when at home without any problems at all. The lifting pad sits snugly under the caravan chassis flange.

I also have an air-jack, operated from the car exhaust system. This works brilliantly, particularly when lifting from very low heights when the trolley is too high to get in. The maximum height is a bit too low on a caravan as it needs to be positioned under the floor, not the chassis.

I bought an Al-Ko side lift jack kit for my present caravan as there were too many underfloor projections to use the air-jack. I made the mistake, once only, of ignoring Al-Ko's advice and not hitching the caravan onto the car during use. The caravan moved sideways and collapsed the jack, causing some damage.

You're right in highlighting the need for a proper jack / jacking point to be fitted as standard to all trailers but the need to "go under the van" will still exist as the chassis strength is some way from the side of the van.

 

[emmerson2]

RogerL, I'm glad to see someone else using an air jack. As I said in my comment, I've used mine for years with no problems.Absolutely marvelous on soft ground for car or caravan.

 

[Surfer]

As safety is paramount as a memeber of Green Flag I leave it to the experts to sort out any flat tyres so I am not bothered with sdecidinmg which jack to purchase.

 

[Joyce_5063910]

Hi Ian

There are times when it would be unwise to attempt to chance a wheel and most of us have recover services for just that occassion.

But I would also like to think that the recovery services are not put in any danger. We have had stories told to us where the rescue services themselves had difficulty when changing wheels.

Also there are many out there who prefer to do the job themselves or indid need to lift their caravan for other purposes than a flat tyre.

So for all those who do not wish to stand back, and there are many, I beleive anything which makes it safer and easier has got to be a good thing.